Sure can't wait for soloing Star Fortress Heroics to be impossible due to the downsizing of DCDs!

It won’t just be Star fortress. My concern is you won’t be able to solo a bunch of stuff we can solo now. Like :

- Veteran Uprisings (they already overbuffed mastermode uprisings to make them impossible)

- Veteran or mastermode flash points

- Veteran or mastermode chapters

- Some 4 man and possibly 2 man heroics.

- Some story mode flash points (for those who had trouble with the latest story flash points)

It won’t just be Star fortress. My concern is you won’t be able to solo a bunch of stuff we can solo now. Like :

- Veteran Uprisings (they already overbuffed mastermode uprisings to make them impossible)

- Veteran or mastermode flash points

- Veteran or mastermode chapters

- Some 4 man and possibly 2 man heroics.

- Some story mode flash points (for those who had trouble with the latest story flash points)

you're not supposed to solo the majority of those, they are group content.

just saying...

you're not supposed to solo the majority of those, they are group content.

 

just saying...

Beat me to it.

We also may be able to pick/choose from various DCD/utility combinations for specific fights (i.e., a Loadout) that will let skilled players complete this kind of content.

In other words: we don't know enough yet to conclude that the game is DOOMED.

: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post

It won’t just be Star fortress. My concern is you won’t be able to solo a bunch of stuff we can solo now. Like :

- Veteran Uprisings (they already overbuffed mastermode uprisings to make them impossible)

- Veteran or mastermode flash points

- Veteran or mastermode chapters

- Some 4 man and possibly 2 man heroics.

- Some story mode flash points (for those who had trouble with the latest story flash points)

you're not supposed to solo the majority of those, they are group content.

 

just saying...

The FP and uprisings are group content yes, but the chapters and star fortress were introduced as solo OR group content and heroics have been solo content since 4.0. Changing that now would mostly likely annoy a lot more players than it would make some players happy.

Plus I really don't want to see the disaster that veteran flashpoints through group-finder turn into if they make them too difficult for a well-geared max level to solo. You get level 75s (really bad level 75s) on live who refuse pops with sub-75s as it is.

There are reasons to leave solo content in the game. MMO is not synomous with Group.

 

We also may be able to pick/choose from various DCD/utility combinations for specific fights (i.e., a Loadout) that will let skilled players complete this kind of content.

 

In other words: we don't know enough yet to conclude that the game is DOOMED.

Can you guarantee that? Of course not! It’s pure speculation, just like our worries we won’t be able to complete content we can currently do.

We are expressing our concerns so BioWare understand what’s expected of them. If they in turn decide to turn a bunch of content we can do solo back to group content only, then they will lose a bunch of subscribers. Myself included.

This is fair warning to them that they better come through with their promise to rebalance ALL content around these changes or they will have a mass exodus again. We don’t have the population luxury we had in years past to wait 3-12 months after the expansion.

It won’t be the abilities being removed that will end up making people leave. It will be all the bugs and badly rebalanced content that will do it.

^ this. They already created a lot of balance problems with 6.0 in both group and solo content although 6.0 had less changes than 7.0. Even today, far from everything has been fixed.

Given the limited resources that they have, it baffles me to see that they are putting their efforts and money into this kind of unneeded and unwanted changes instead of real new content. Plus we will have to re-level (Hammer Station ad nauseam again?) and re-gear again to be able to continue doing the same old content 😖

Those players who are complaining that there are too many buttons and that they have a hard time doing their rotation, they don’t don’t do hm/nim ops and don’t even need to know their rotation. You don’t even need to know it for flashpoints. I play FFXIV and there are distinct classes and a lot more buttons and menus, yet the game thrives. When the expansion comes up later this year, We will be able to continue playing the old content without having to re-gear. The new gear will be needed only for the new content.

Can you guarantee that? Of course not! It’s pure speculation, just like our worries we won’t be able to complete content we can currently do.

 

We are expressing our concerns so BioWare understand what’s expected of them. If they in turn decide to turn a bunch of content we can do solo back to group content only, then they will lose a bunch of subscribers. Myself included.

 

This is fair warning to them that they better come through with their promise to rebalance ALL content around these changes or they will have a mass exodus again. We don’t have the population luxury we had in years past to wait 3-12 months after the expansion.

I agree, but that's kind of what I've been saying all along: we don't know enough yet, so it makes sense to keep checking out PTS and reserve judgment until they're done.

I personally think they should have focused on making more actual content as opposed to revamping the combat system's framework, but there is no chance they will change course on that now. Whether it ends up good, bad, or middling, this is what we're gonna get.

I agree, but that's kind of what I've been saying all along: we don't know enough yet, so it makes sense to keep checking out PTS and reserve judgment until they're done.

This is apologetic nonsense.

You're right! We don't know what they're going to do to all the classes yet. But you know what we do know? That Bioware, as it has shown itself in literally a decade of running this game, have neither the time, nor the manpower, nor the skill to rebalance all of the existing content in the game to fit this new mold, much less do it in anything resembling a timely fashion.

Also, you seem to be missing the entire point of the PTS, which is that you give feedback on the systems as they are made so they can hopefully not make bad systems? You're right that they're probably going to go ahead with these changes no matter how many people dislike them, but that is still the explicit purpose of the PTS, don't tell people to reserve judgment until it's too late...

Oh really?!? Well, I have an active subscription, and I use Steam. No such option exists for me via the launcher, or the account page.

 

https://imgur.com/a/lgsfklW

PTS on steam is separate down load. go to the store; search SWTOR Public Test Server

This is apologetic nonsense.

 

You're right! We don't know what they're going to do to all the classes yet. But you know what we do know? That Bioware, as it has shown itself in literally a decade of running this game, have neither the time, nor the manpower, nor the skill to rebalance all of the existing content in the game to fit this new mold, much less do it in anything resembling a timely fashion.

 

Also, you seem to be missing the entire point of the PTS, which is that you give feedback on the systems as they are made so they can hopefully not make bad systems? You're right that they're probably going to go ahead with these changes no matter how many people dislike them, but that is still the explicit purpose of the PTS, don't tell people to reserve judgment until it's too late...

And that is melodramatic drivel, which is exactly why I say "reserve judgment." We've seen early builds of 6 out of 24 specs, with no opportunity to test them against the vast majority of content in the game. I don't think shrieks of "DOOM" at this stage constitutes meaningful feedback, so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

And that is melodramatic drivel, which is exactly why I say "reserve judgment." We've seen early builds of 6 out of 24 specs, with no opportunity to test them against the vast majority of content in the game. I don't think shrieks of "DOOM" at this stage constitutes meaningful feedback, so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

You don't have to be Chicken Little to know that the loss of three DCD/mobility tools (loss of Mad Dash; loss of Freezing Force; choice between Saber Reflect and Enure) from the LIVE defense guardian toolkit is going to cause problems in the upper echelons of content. Rolling the movement speed and slow immunity from the utility into default Combat Focus is helpful, but won't make up for the losses. I'm not shrieking out "DOOM!" but I've voiced my feedback.

The variety and breadth of DCDs defines a Guardian, in my view, both tank and damage, and distinguishes it from other Advanced Classes (Combat Styles.) The Developers say they removed them to make pvp time-to-kill shorter and because older ops and flashpoints were not designed with these tools in mind, although the truth is that most of the toolkit was present since before 2.0. They've said nothing about making tank stats actually relevant in pvp or uncapped pve such that it would be advantageous to stack them instead of power and endurance. You can't even get tank mods from the PTS vendors outside of earpiece/implants.

Also let's not forget that this was, in some respects, a bait and switch. When we watched the livestream and were shown Combat Styles, it seemed to be essentially something people had asked for since the beginning of the game: the ability to swap advanced classes. It may be that, but its also clearly something else, and this wasn't communicated until the posts went up at the time of PTS opening. The developers knew this would be a shock to the community and intentionally understated what was really happening: the developers knew that dramatic changes were coming to classes in the form of removed abilities and forced choices between others with fewer DCDs and mobility tools, and they needed the players to provide feedback on nerfs. We weren't testing an interface, to make sure the swapping was seamless. We were testing out planned nerfs.

I'm not going to be like some others in the forums and disingenuously claim that I never saw a post from a player complaining about ability bloat, or that classes as a whole are too hard to kill because of DCDs. I can't point to a specific thread because I don't bookmark those kinds of threads everytime, but I've read enough of the forums over the past decade to know its been discussed. So, maybe its a problem that needed this solution. I'm willing to see how things play out even though I can make some reasonable predictions about my performance post 7.0 compared to now, based on an entire game's life of playing Defense Guardian.

The irony here is that the developers removed trees of choices in 3.0 in favor of ease of balance, and now they are adding back choices under the same guise of ease of balance.

no one knows enough about these changes to predict how they'll turn out yet

Which is false. If you're unable to recognize patterns, don't assume that extends to the rest of the world.

I agree, but that's kind of what I've been saying all along: we don't know enough yet, so it makes sense to keep checking out PTS and reserve judgment until they're done.

 

I personally think they should have focused on making more actual content as opposed to revamping the combat system's framework, but there is no chance they will change course on that now. Whether it ends up good, bad, or middling, this is what we're gonna get.

We aren’t trying to give judgment. We are trying to give feedback based on what we see and what we expect. Keep in mind that many of us have been here a long time and understand how Bioware work.

We want to provide enough feedback and expectations “early” enough to Bioware so they have time to make changes. You coming here and telling us to wait is anti productive to that goal. Telling us to wait till they finish is nonsensical because by they it’s too late for our feedback to have any affect.

Give it a rest. All I did was state the obvious: no one knows enough about these changes to predict how they'll turn out yet. You're clearly not interested in doing anything but proclaiming DOOM upon the world. Folks like you have been saying this game is DOOMED for the past ten years any time BioWare dares to change their precious game without the informed consent of the forum warriors. But don't worry - I'm sure you'll eventually be right if you keep saying it long enough.

That's not true, though. I, and many other people giving feedback--which is the INTENT OF THE PTS, I will remind you--are coming forth with the completely valid request that they not reduce the number of abilities each class uses. You're being massively disingenuous by acting like nobody is giving any legitimately valid feedback. You seem more like the one who just plans to keep repeating BS until people are convinced it's true.

Whether or not the game is going to 'die' from this is irrelevant; many veterans are planning to leave if they oversimplify the classes, and they, and I, would rather not have a game that they love so much become much worse to play. If you think that's just proclaiming doom aimlessly, then you need to get your brain checked. I suggest you use some introspection and ask yourself why you seem to believe that everyone asking for them not to make the game more braindead is simply doomsaying. Though, far more likely, everything I just typed here will go in one ear and out the other as you continue to condemn me as someone who is just yelling doom, doom, doom, when that was never the case.

As you say, and as I said you said, yes, it's astronomically unlikely they will veer from this course, true. However, I will be damned if I will just accept their bad decision because they refuse to renege on it...especially since they have listened to the playerbase and massively altered their plans before, to NEGATIVE effect, when they cut out half of KOTET due to backlash over KOTFE, a real thing that actually happened and that one of the head devs outright said happened. God forbid we try to get them to listen to us to any positive effect. God FORBID.

Failing any of that, though, please be quiet. I don't go around telling the people who want these changes that they're a bunch of fools, and I would respect the same in return.

Which is false. If you're unable to recognize patterns, don't assume that extends to the rest of the world.

I bow to your omniscience, oh great one.

That's not true, though. I, and many other people giving feedback--which is the INTENT OF THE PTS, I will remind you--are coming forth with the completely valid request that they not reduce the number of abilities each class uses. You're being massively disingenuous by acting like nobody is giving any legitimately valid feedback. You seem more like the one who just plans to keep repeating BS until people are convinced it's true.

 

Whether or not the game is going to 'die' from this is irrelevant; many veterans are planning to leave if they oversimplify the classes, and they, and I, would rather not have a game that they love so much become much worse to play. If you think that's just proclaiming doom aimlessly, then you need to get your brain checked. I suggest you use some introspection and ask yourself why you seem to believe that everyone asking for them not to make the game more braindead is simply doomsaying. Though, far more likely, everything I just typed here will go in one ear and out the other as you continue to condemn me as someone who is just yelling doom, doom, doom, when that was never the case.

 

As you say, and as I said you said, yes, it's astronomically unlikely they will veer from this course, true. However, I will be damned if I will just accept their bad decision because they refuse to renege on it...especially since they have listened to the playerbase and massively altered their plans before, to NEGATIVE effect, when they cut out half of KOTET due to backlash over KOTFE, a real thing that actually happened and that one of the head devs outright said happened. God forbid we try to get them to listen to us to any positive effect. God FORBID.

 

Failing any of that, though, please be quiet. I don't go around telling the people who want these changes that they're a bunch of fools, and I would respect the same in return.

I've never said that those who don't want the changes are fools. Quite the opposite. I don't want them either, but as we both agree, they are coming. You are looking for an argument that isn't there.

What I don't agree with, and what I won't keep quiet about, are the predictions of the game's imminent demise. I simply don't see it, because I don't think the serious players are their main source of revenue. If they were, they would not be making these changes. They would be pumping out content for the existing system.

I think this game lives off of Space Barbie, the hype from the movies and shows, and the fact that it's the only game in town, so to speak. It's the only reason it's survived the past mismanagement, and I don't think that's going to change. The IP is simply too strong.

I bow to your omniscience, oh great one.

He's literally right tho lmao

You're free to your assertion about how nobody should say this will kill the game, but saying that there is no reason whatsoever to assume they will do a bad job of balancing the game when we have a literal decade of evidence to it is another matter entirely.

We aren’t trying to give judgment. We are trying to give feedback based on what we see and what we expect. Keep in mind that many of us have been here a long time and understand how Bioware work.

 

We want to provide enough feedback and expectations “early” enough to Bioware so they have time to make changes. You coming here and telling us to wait is anti productive to that goal. Telling us to wait till they finish is nonsensical because by they it’s too late for our feedback to have any affect.

I'm not telling anyone to hold back on feedback. I disagree with the general sentiment that these changes will be the death of the game, and that's where every one of these threads ends up. Those who are the most passionate about the game talk a lot and think the worst based on the past. It may be understandable, but it's not productive. I think the devs just tune out when that happens. I know I would.

He's literally right tho lmao

 

You're free to your assertion about how nobody should say this will kill the game, but saying that there is no reason whatsoever to assume they will do a bad job of balancing the game when we have a literal decade of evidence to it is another matter entirely.

I didn't say there is no reason. I said we don't know yet. I think Keith has done a good job, in stark contrast to what came before. And I don't think these changes are as drastic as the rest of you do. So, I am cautiously optimistic.

I bow to your omniscience, oh great one.

Basic pattern recognition is so far beyond you, it appears as omniscience? Well, okay.

I didn't say there is no reason. I said we don't know yet. I think Keith has done a good job, in stark contrast to what came before. And I don't think these changes are as drastic as the rest of you do. So, I am cautiously optimistic.

I will be back for you, when the update drops in entirety and the content is wildly unbalanced around it. Rest assured.

I will be back for you, when the update drops in entirety and the content is wildly unbalanced around it. Rest assured.

I doubt that, because if it is, you'll unsub, right?

I doubt that, because if it is, you'll unsub, right?

It really depends on severity. There have been periods of the game being wildly unbalanced I've been able to persevere through. Keep strawmanning me as a tool if it helps you, though.

I doubt that, because if it is, you'll unsub, right?

rofl the catch 22

Btw, I applaud you fighting the good fight in the forums. I gave up a couple weeks ago. DOOOOOOOOOM

rofl the catch 22

 

Btw, I applaud you fighting the good fight in the forums. I gave up a couple weeks ago. DOOOOOOOOOM

If I had a nickel for every update that's been predicted to KILL THE GAME...I'd be broke. We need more updates.