No they don't actually. We're getting combat styles for at least the following reasons:

• To upset the current state of play as to refresh it and make the game feel "new" again to cover for the lack of content
  
• To allow people to play their favourite versions of a class through the story (Like a Bounty Hunter with a Sniper rifle as we see in the Mandalorian).
  
• To make things easier on the developers because they'll be taking out a lot of depth or complexity
  

 

Those aren't the only reasons though. They're doing it to try and make it more appealing which ties into both what you and I are saying.

 

What is the hook of SWTOR's combat? Nothing so they're trying to make it more appealing/enticing. What's going to to draw them in? Nothing so they're trying to make it more appealing/enticing. What is it doing that no other MMO is doing? Nothing so they're trying to make it more appealing/enticing.

 

Are they basically waving shiny keys at people? Yeah, to try and make it more appealing or to get attention which SWTOR's current combat and systems don't do so what I'm asking or talking about there does apply.

 

I can answer all 3 of your questions though with the following 3 words:

 

Because Star Wars

 

Except if somebody wants a combat-focused SW experience they're looking to Battlefront not SWTOR.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

They do want to keep things interesting for the raiders but they've been losing out the last 3 expansions, so why stop there right? The raiders that are left are not insignificant in numbers or else they wouldn't bring out another Ops, however, these raiders have weathered the last 3 expansions so they'll accept this as well or at least learn to live with it.

 

I agree however in a similar regard I was surprised to hear they'd be doing another pass over on PVP at some point in the future.

 

The PVP is frequently cited as being one of SWTOR's worst or least developed aspects, it rarely gets attention, etc, so chances are that as a result the numbers have dwindled.

 

It's not like they're selling PVP content on the CM or rather generating a ton of revenue as a result of it unless they're seeing that a lot of people in the PVP specific audience are buying cosmetics.

 

They announced a while ago that they'd be cutting back on the PVP Seasonal rewards saying that they're too much a resource drain. They've mentioned numerous times the issues they've had between balancing PVP against PVE.

 

Is it just a situation of "it's been X amount of time since we updated PVP so it's time to give it some more attention." I just don't see how it's doing anything for them at this point given the state it's been in for a while now or what will change or that they'll gain that won't ultimately end up putting PVP back in the same spot again.

Except if somebody wants a combat-focused SW experience they're looking to Battlefront not SWTOR.

Which I think is fine with them

I agree however in a similar regard I was surprised to hear they'd be doing another pass over on PVP at some point in the future.

Well that might just be a little bit of false advertising. They're changing the whole set up, so they will need to make changes for PvP as well. So they're gonna fix that later and first release combat styles and then see what it does to PvP. So rather than saying they're gonna need to fix combat in PvP they say "we're going to make some changes to PvP next year".

 

In other words the changes they are making with the combat styles etc. will affect PvP and rather than fixing it now, they'll sell it as a pass over later. I do think they'll do a bit more than that but they've just linked it to the changes they'll expect they have to make because of what they're doing now. It's more ...efficient that way.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Tsillah

Which I think is fine with them

 

It's definitely fine with EA as they operate both games.

 

Think about how perfect that is for them. I mean if you're playing an MMO and not enjoying it's PVP and are hoping to another game to get your PVP fix what are the chances that other game is from the same company? On top of that think about how it's hard for MMOs to monetize PVP without making it Pay To Win but whatever money EA is (potentially) losing out on from PVP in SWTOR they're more than making up for in/with Battlefront.

 

"Isn't teamwork just grand?" - Kira

If SWTOR is the linear/restrictive AAA MMO on the market (and I'd agree while also saying the most streamlined) don't Combat Styles fall exactly in line with that design philosophy? Regardless of whether Combat Styles make things worse or not isn't that at the end of the day SWTOR's thing?

 

Yes, if you mean that by SWTOR's thing is making terrible revamps that drive away more and more of its established players. They can go very far in streamlining alot of things in the game, but destroying the essential combat system through combat style pruning is going to kill whatever lite-traditional mmo players are left. I guess you can run an mmo with only casuals in the boneyard of where an actual game stood, but its purpose will only be for the cash-shop, and most trivial gameplay possible.

 

You ever stop to think that's because when Bioware followed the metrics of what people were spending the most time on or with it was solo PVE content and so as a result they tried to make it easy/friendly/inviting as possible to try and get more people in?

 

TBF, yes, this makes sense. However in the process they gutted their original design with the simple bandaid less difficulty fix which destroys the content for actual gameplay players. The super-easy cutscene only, 5 ability difficulty shouldn't be the default, it should be an optional toggle, or they should at least add an optional toggle for the intended design difficulty that worked if they want super-easy as default.

In the end, the original design is what was best developed in terms of $$, testing and dev team. The rest of the **** we get has been skeleton crew content development and fixes.

 

If you make the solo PVE content challenging then you end up in a similar situation to Wildstar where too many casual MMO players bounced off it because they found it's combat to be too hard.

 

I'm guessing you didn't play pre 3.0/4.0 but the class story difficulty was in no way as difficult as Wildstar. It just wasn't mindless AOE slam everywhere like we have now. And maybe their metrics show this type of "story" player is more prevalent after they burned everyone away with a terrible endgame and failed content support for traditional mmo players. However, they should still leave a difficulty option available for them and shouldn't destroy the combat system of the game in favor of players who don't use it in the first place. Shoot, instead of the 3.0/4.0 updates why didn't they just add permeant 20xp boosts for those who wanted them, would've been better than burning the well-designed gameplay in revamp, could've done content development instead.

 

If a developer wants to make a challenging game that's fine. Plenty of games have had success with that like Dark Souls however that design philosophy doesn't mesh with a giant large scale MMO that's trying to get as many people to play as possible.

 

Lol, pre-3.0/4.0 was no where close to dark souls design. This game wasn't super-challenging, it simply wasn't faceroll easy to a point it no longer incentivized players to play its gameplay or learn its combat-system.

 

MMOs of the scope and scale of WoW, SWTOR, ESO, etc, want and financially need to be able to cast a net across a wide enough audience in order to maintain success or in order to survive. Making the game challenging makes that thing more difficult.

 

Games like Dark Souls are able to achieve great success because they're aimed at a more specific audience and don't have 100 million dollar-plus budgets and thus don't need to try and appeal to the widest possible audience.

 

What you're saying there isn't wrong or inaccurate but when the biggest draw of the game for a lot of people is the solo content then they're of course going to try and tune the game more around the solo content.

 

I agree, but good solo content can also be difficult and fun. I enjoy solo content but still wouldn't want it to be as faceroll as it is now. IE Boss cutscenes in class story were more immersive for me when ya know, they felt like bosses in the gameplay instead of 5-secon- mash-button-to-get-to-next-cutscene-machines.

 

It's not at all surprising that PVP has gotten as bad as it has over the years or that they don't update it or give it as much attention as other parts of the game because that's not where SWTOR's audience seems to be focused.

 

SWTOR also can't compete with the slew of games on the market that are built entirely around a PVP experience which is a genre of game that has only grown more significant and more rapidly in the last 10 years.

 

Yeah, PvP has always been kinda bad lol. I enjoyed hutball the few times I played it and open-world PvP is a fun immersive gimmick the few times it happened until it impeded my questing. The 7.0 combat revamp would destroy the viability PvP has for those who like it though.

Edited July 24, 2021 by ssupercid

Yes, but pve being to easy is not the entire story. Even in HM/NiM ops you wouldn't use Guardian Leap and Freezing Force isn't needed there either. The game's story lines have been made really easy and it used to be harder but that's not coming back.

 

GW2 for example has the same issue. The combat system is deceptively easy but using it to the fullest is actually complex. But doing that is neither warranted nor needed for the vast majority of the content. So the combat system has a level of complexity that doesn't fit the content and this is why I believe they are doing this. You see, the issue is that making open world pve harder will make you lose a lot of the casual players and that would be a bad thing for the game, because there are a LOT of casual players in both games. I daresay that neither game would survive an exodus of casual players.

 

They do want to keep things interesting for the raiders but they've been losing out the last 3 expansions, so why stop there right? The raiders that are left are not insignificant in numbers or else they wouldn't bring out another Ops, however, these raiders have weathered the last 3 expansions so they'll accept this as well or at least learn to live with it.

 

OPTIONAL DIFFICULTY TOGGLES for both types of players is the solution. All unique and fun combat scenario are luckily INSTANCED. Where are the Class Story, Planetary Arc difficulty options for instances. Even some exploration side quests have their own instances that could be difficulty-set.

Edited July 24, 2021 by ssupercid

Except if somebody wants a combat-focused SW experience they're looking to Battlefront not SWTOR.

 

What if I want a combat-focused SW [MMO] experience with tab-target combat? It exists right here and I enjoy it and wouldn't want it cut away.

 

I give my final piece in here https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=995367&page=12

hopefully they dont kill good combat

Edited July 24, 2021 by ssupercid

OPTIONAL DIFFICULTY TOGGLES for both types of players is the solution. All unique and fun combat scenario are luckily INSTANCED. Where are the Class Story, Planetary Arc difficulty options for instances. Even some exploration side quests have their own instances that could be difficulty-set.

They can't even figure out their difficulties in FPs and Ops. And your talking about going back and revamping old content. With 4.0 they streamlined the content up to level 50. That's the end of it. They did talk about streamlining stuff of the subsequent expansions. Even asked us for suggestions on how to streamline the experience.

 

Even if what you say could be done, I think you'll find that it's not quite as easy as you might think but in the end they're not going to invest in old content again once it's been streamlined.

OPTIONAL DIFFICULTY TOGGLES for both types of players is the solution. All unique and fun combat scenario are luckily INSTANCED. Where are the Class Story, Planetary Arc difficulty options for instances. Even some exploration side quests have their own instances that could be difficulty-set.

 

On this we both agree. I have also mentioned it several times. It would require some work .. YES. BUT IMO would bring a lot more "balance" to the PvE situation and provide something for everyone. Additionally the same system could be provided for EITHER solo OR group participation.

 

** Story mode : Just exactly that. Very basic and rewards are matched accordingly.

** Veteran mode: Pretty much self explanatory. For those who have been around a while and prefer more of a challenge.

** Master mode (or perhaps called élite ). Considerably more difficult. For those who are looking for THAT level of performance. This should also be available for solo players since there are those who really do enjoy that sort of a challenge.

 

The foundation for this was already laid in KotFE / ET. ( I already hear some moaning at the mention of KotFE / ET so they are immediately opposed to the idea).

 

The simple truth is that IF an area is instanced ... it can easily be adjusted to accommodate the above prescribed system. There are game that have been out since SFC: OP that already use a similar system that reads how many players are entering the instance .. their power levels and issues an appropriate number / level of AI .. (etc) to match the individual OR GROUP !!

 

I wouldn't write the game off just yet !! BUT IMO these next few steps need to be done with caution and not overly stripping out too much so that it creates a vacuum or hole in the overall presentation of how the game is played.

 

That's just my own opinion !

https://vulkk.com/2021/07/11/swtor-7-0-pts-guardian-combat-styles-first-look/

 

 

From that article "I do agree with BioWare that this game is quite complicated. Almost no games are released these days that have remotely close to the number of buttons that SWTOR has." Need I remind said person that two of the most popular mmorpg's in the world right now have more buttons to press and is not considered complicated. (I'm aware they said these days but swtor came out in those days) What I see happening is swtor is moving away from an mmo style game to more of a story game which is fine but the only problem with that is mmorpg tab target combat sucks for a single player game.

Yes, but pve being too easy is not the entire story. Even in HM/NiM ops you wouldn't use Guardian Leap and Freezing Force isn't needed there either. The game's story lines have been made really easy and it used to be harder but that's not coming back.

 

GW2 for example has the same issue. The combat system is deceptively easy but using it to the fullest is actually complex. But doing that is neither warranted nor needed for the vast majority of the content. So the combat system has a level of complexity that doesn't fit the content and this is why I believe they are doing this. You see, the issue is that making open world pve harder will make you lose a lot of the casual players and that would be a bad thing for the game, because there are a LOT of casual players in both games. I daresay that neither game would survive an exodus of casual players.

 

They do want to keep things interesting for the raiders but they've been losing out the last 3 expansions, so why stop there right? The raiders that are left are not insignificant in numbers or else they wouldn't bring out another Ops, however, these raiders have weathered the last 3 expansions so they'll accept this as well or at least learn to live with it.

 

I remember back at launch, getting to Corellia for the first time, underleveled (cause I hate Voss) and getting knocked off my speeder bike while driving by two "strong" enemies. Because of a bug, companions wouldn't come back after getting knocked off a mount, so suddenly I had a tough, but fun fight, which I lost.

 

I can't even remember any individual fights from yesterday, when I was leveling up a new smuggler. Even though it was on a new server, and I didn't have all the buffs and legacy advantages, it was still too easy to make an impact, or bother to remember.

 

I really think something really important is lost when pve is too easy. None of the new players are making memories off of combat, when combat is too trivial. I think the Star Wars IP, and the story is enough to get people in the door, but it isn't enough to keep them as long term players. I think modern day gamers are capable are, on the whole, not only capable of handling harder content but are actually a little bit insulted when combat is nothing but pre-determined wins.

 

Anyways, I don't see why guardian leap couldn't be used in Nim ops. Just take off the threat modifier when leaping to a tank, or a tank that has a guard up. Freezing force, why is there no add phases where you need to kite a bunch of droid adds or whatnot, because they'll detonate or one shot your low armor party members? Sounds like dynamic gameplay. My suspicion is that Bioware doesn't want to balance the utility/usefulness of dps outside of raw damage. I'm not a NiM raider, but that's just what it seems like from the videos I've seen, and Bioware in general.

Yes, it does you just chose to ignore it when shown to wrong or say that it doesn't apply to the topic even though it does.

 

You so desperately want to avoid having to admit to even being slightly wrong about anything that you'll constantly move the the goal posts about what is or isn't allowed to be part of the topic, what doesn't count/matter, etc, even though I'm discussing and replying to things you yourself are posting.

 

 

 

That's true you're not but even when I make things simple you still avoid and ignore it because you don't want to admit to being wrong or that you don't know.

 

 

 

Right, I'm specifically following you around. There's no thread that exists where I have a post that proceeds any of your posts right?

 

 

 

No, that would be you. I reply directly to what it is you're saying while you have on multiple occasions bring up things that in response to me that I've never said or was talking about in the first place.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to start arguments without any point. You just keep saying that to avoid having to admit to being wrong or ignorant about something.

 

 

 

You do the same and see if they tell you that you're not wasting your time arguing with people about a Star Wars video game.

 

 

 

But it is for you?

 

Show me the thread where I initiated dialogue with you. I might be wrong, but I don't remember ever talking to you, other than responding to you quoting me.

Anyways, I don't see why guardian leap couldn't be used in Nim ops.

I didn't say that it couldn't be used. I'm saying that afaik nobody really uses it, no matter what content they're playing. It's too niche.

 

So it's not that they can't use it but that they don't. And if they're gonna prune skills away, then maybe that sort of skill is a good place to start.

I didn't say that it couldn't be used. I'm saying that afaik nobody really uses it, no matter what content they're playing. It's too niche.

 

So it's not that they can't use it but that they don't. And if they're gonna prune skills away, then maybe that sort of skill is a good place to start.

 

Lol I missed one ability, I think that's called intercede on Jugg, if only 1 ability were to be removed thats the only one I would kill.

Show me the thread where I initiated dialogue with you. I might be wrong, but I don't remember ever talking to you, other than responding to you quoting me.

 

What are you talking about? Where did I specifically say anything about you initiating dialogue with me first?

 

You once again keep ignoring things and deflecting away from things just to avoid having to admit that you're wrong or ignorant about anything. You then continually attack me and my person to try and make me look bad just to avoid having to admit to being wrong or ignorant about something/anything.

 

"Okay, he said this thing that made that shot down my points so instead of defending my position on what I said I'll say this to make him look bad then everyone will pay more attention to that than anything he said previously."

 

Why though? The world isn't going to end if you admit that you're wrong or that I'm right about something so why continue to so stubbornly repeat this same behavior?

Edited July 24, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

What if I want a combat-focused SW [MMO] experience with tab-target combat? It exists right here and I enjoy it and wouldn't want it cut away.

 

That's fine if you want that but understand that's a much more narrow, specific, and/or (potentially) niche audience of people.

 

Note that every time you list one of those specific qualifiers the audience/circle of people shrinks. So for instance "a SW game" that creates a certain audience of people. That's an MMO, the circle gets smaller, with tab targeting combat, the circle gets even smaller.

 

As for your other longer reply to me earlier you're not wrong in what you say but Bioware isn't going to go back to the older difficulty level of the game nor are they going to create more difficulty modes to accommodate or further fragment the player base.

 

SWTOR's previous combat in most solo PVE instances wasn't that much more challenging it just took longer to kill mobs. People will sometimes conflate difficulty with time it takes to accomplish a task, kill an enemy, etc, but you can have challenging content with one hit kill scenarios in games. I'm not saying that's what SWTOR needs, I'm just using that as an example.

 

One of the issues SWTOR has always had with its combat/design/encounters (in solo PVE) is that it's so mindless, repetitive, and uninteresting. Get on your speeder encounter a mob, press 1-X on your skill bar, get back on your speeder encounter a mob press 1-X on your skill bar, repeat. Basically every combat encounter you run into in the solo PVE is you repeating the exact same thing so what does it matter if you're getting through a full combat rotation fighting a mob (old school SWTOR) or only using 1 to 3 abilities the way people are now? There's no variety to it, it's not interesting, or super engaging. It never really has been even back when the game launched.

 

It can be fun for a while or early on when everything is new or fresh but by the time you're at Hoth all the combat is basically doing is making it take longer for you to get from Point A to Point B. After a certain point a number of people no longer want to engage with the game's combat and just want to get to the next story beat. If the combat had more variety, was more engaging, less repetitive, etc, it wouldn't be the problem that many people have with it while playing through the story.

 

If SWTOR had combat like Jedi Outcast or Battlefront do you think people who are playing through the story would try to avoid it as much? There are definitely going to be instances of people wanting to avoid it to get to the next objective but do you think it would be anywhere to the frequency it is now?

 

Note I want to be clear I'm not saying SWTOR should or needs to have that type of combat but had SWTOR been built with that type of combat (instead of copying WoWs) I don't think it would have as many of the problems people have with it. It also would have no doubt attracted a wider audience of people looking for a more "Star Warsy" experience.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

I didn't say that it couldn't be used. I'm saying that afaik nobody really uses it, no matter what content they're playing. It's too niche.

 

So it's not that they can't use it but that they don't. And if they're gonna prune skills away, then maybe that sort of skill is a good place to start.

 

I'm saying the developers could make a use for Guardian Leap. The reason it isn't used, is that it reduces threat in addition to the buff to DR, and raid/flashpoint bosses, as I've seen them, don't really have alot of "x boss is about to use his signature move, buff the tank" type scenarios that actually necessitate buffing their dr for 6 seconds.

 

There's plenty of abilities in FF14 that give a temporary damage resistance buffs to other players, alot more than what I see in SWTOR, and they're not only used in FF14, they're actually consistently needed. Giving the dps more to do that just "stand in the right place and dps" could go a long ways to making combat more dynamic for pve.

 

It's not that guardian leap is too niche. It's actually a pretty powerful ability. It gets used in every warzone/pvp area where the concept of losing is real. If healers in a NiM operation, or even a flashpoint, were in danger of pulling agro, a jugg dps could guardian leap to them, then leap back to the boss. Yet that probably doesn't happen too often, but that has more to do with the pve enemies that it does the ability itself.

What are you talking about? Where did I specifically say anything about you initiating dialogue with me first?

 

You once again keep ignoring things and deflecting away from things just to avoid having to admit that you're wrong or ignorant about anything. You then continually attack me and my person to try and make me look bad just to avoid having to admit to being wrong or ignorant about something/anything.

 

"Okay, he said this thing that made that shot down my points so instead of defending my position on what I said I'll say this to make him look bad then everyone will pay more attention to that than anything he said previously."

 

Why though? The world isn't going to end if you admit that you're wrong or that I'm right about something so why continue to so stubbornly repeat this same behavior?

 

If I have someone constantly quoting me, but instead of having a valid, articulated point just kept on rambling and rambling on, writing page after page of vague nonsense that's clearly off topic, yeah, I'm gonna ignore most of it.

 

Can you actually, in 30 words or less, speak about a point I made that you've clearly proven me wrong on?

 

I haven't made you look bad, the pages and pages of rambling have. To quote a Obi Wan Kenobi, "You have done that yourself."

If I have someone constantly quoting me, but instead of having a valid, articulated point just kept on rambling and rambling on, writing page after page of vague nonsense that's clearly off topic, yeah, I'm gonna ignore most of it.

 

Except I do have valid points you just chose to ignore everything and anything that shows you to be wrong or makes you look bad.

 

You also come across feeling the need to get the last word in. If I'm not saying anything of any value then why bother replying? Oh right it's for exactly the reasons I've been saying and you continue to demonstrate that every single time you reply.

 

I haven't made you look bad

 

You go out of your way to try and do so or else you wouldn't reply.

 

the pages and pages of rambling have.

 

If that's actually the case then that's obvious to everyone and doesn't need you to highlight it yet you feel the need to do so because someone with such a frail ego that can't admit to being wrong about anything feels to need to constantly do that sort of thing as you've continued to display with every response.

Can you actually, in 30 words or less, speak about a point I made that you've clearly proven me wrong on?

 

How about when you claimed you didn't speak in hyperbole?

 

https://imgur.com/a/lDT1D7w

 

https://imgur.com/a/jO8Y66V

 

"That's not X! That doesn't count!" - Severith (moving the goalposts)

Edited July 24, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

You go to every thread which I post in

 

Yes, I'm intentionally following/stalking you from thread to thread like you're suggesting.

 

..........

 

Post #12 (Me)

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9956953&postcount=12

 

Post #21 (Severith)

https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9957068&postcount=21

 

As we all know #21 proceeds #12 so I obviously followed Sev to this thread

Can you actually, in 30 words or less, speak about a point I made that you've clearly proven me wrong on?

 

Btw let's call some extra attention to this. How many posts have you made that are 30 words or less? What a desperate move to try and pull knowing that in a discussion/argument that just about anyone, including yourself, would have a difficult time within those parameters.

 

This type of continued behavior is just further proof that what I've been saying about you is true.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

How about when you claimed you didn't speak in hyperbole?

 

https://imgur.com/a/lDT1D7w

 

https://imgur.com/a/jO8Y66V

 

"That's not X! That doesn't count!" - Severith (moving the goalposts)

 

Combat Styles aren't "combat styles" at all, it's a simple class change. I see no evidence for a large, or even small group of people, asking for the ability to switch classes before 7.0 was announced.

 

How is any of that hyperbole? (And it's still pages of text, even when instead of one long post, you do it 4 times in a row.)

Edited July 25, 2021 by Severith

I use guardian leap in pvp especially in Huttball - if I'm carrying it's a great way to move far or up levels. If BW wanted to simplify things they could make charge work vs allies. Edited July 25, 2021 by Savej

I see no evidence for a large, or even small group of people, asking for the ability to switch classes before 7.0 was announced.

 

Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

 

How is any of that hyperbole?

 

Hyperbole = "exaggerated statements or claims"

 

You're making exaggerated statements and claims in order to validate yourself. You're speaking in hyperbole.

 

You also completely ignored all the stuff about WoW which you were also wrong about.

 

https://imgur.com/a/jO8Y66V

 

And it's still pages of text, even when instead of one long post, you do it 4 times in a row

 

No, it wasn't pages of text. I was trying to make it as simple and easy to read as possible. You could easily respond to any of the things that call you out on your BS but you choose not to despite them highlighting your problematic behavior. You want to pretend like you never said those things even though you clearly did.

 

Perfect example...

 

You go to every thread which I post in

Yes, I'm intentionally following/stalking you from thread to thread like you're suggesting.

 

..........

 

Post #12 (Me)

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9956953&postcount=12

 

Post #21 (Severith)

https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9957068&postcount=21

 

As we all know #21 proceeds #12 so I obviously followed Sev to this thread

 

...but of course you ignore it because it makes you look bad.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Darth-Obvious