My money is on Darth Nox, from a strictly lore stand point. I mean, he's way more knowledgeable in the Force, not to mention his Dashade he has in his service.

The better question is, what happens after Nox wins and he eats Wrath's ghost?

My money is on Darth Nox, from a strictly lore stand point. I mean, he's way more knowledgeable in the Force, not to mention his Dashade he has in his service.

 

The better question is, what happens after Nox wins and he eats Wrath's ghost?

It doesnt matter how knowledgeable your are in the force. The emperor was beat by the brute force of a lightsaber by the hero of tython. Lets not forget the Emperor has the most force knowledge out of everybody in the KOTOR era.

We should list the duels between Force oriented and Fight oriented Sith/Jedis like this:

Qui-gon vs Maul: Fight oriented wins

and see wich type of skills wins the most often

In SW duelists are always better then force-masters. It's tradition. I can imagine warrior enduring force lightning - especially if he is enraged. I can't imagine Nox surviving after a good lightsaber strike. It's intstant kill. And dont mention Darth Maul - it was most BS moment ever.

Also emperor's wrath must be able to eliminate dark council members - it's part of the job. If warrior isn't the best combatant of all sith - why is he chosen to be wrath?

In SW duelists are always better then force-masters. It's tradition. I can imagine warrior enduring force lightning - especially if he is enraged. I can't imagine Nox surviving after a good lightsaber strike. It's intstant kill. And dont mention Darth Maul - it was most BS moment ever.

 

Also emperor's wrath must be able to eliminate dark council members - it's part of the job. If warrior isn't the best combatant of all sith - why is he chosen to be wrath?

Satele Shan, a consular, defeats Darth Malgus, a warrior. It's hardly a universal tradition.

In SW duelists are always better then force-masters. It's tradition.

Sidious says hi.

My money is on Darth Nox, from a strictly lore stand point. I mean, he's way more knowledgeable in the Force, not to mention his Dashade he has in his service.

I find this questionable, since in the content he seems to barely know his own name, and relies on others telling him what to do.

Sidious says hi.

You do know that Mace beat sidious, correct? Even Lucas says it in the ROTS commentary.

I find this questionable, since in the content he seems to barely know his own name, and relies on others telling him what to do.

Since this applies to all characters, that doesn't give the Warrior an advantage.

You do know that Mace beat sidious, correct? Even Lucas says it in the ROTS commentary.

Sidious was clearly not fighting with everything he had. Sure, Mace took him down, but Sidious wanted Anakin to show up and thus didn't unleash all of his power (which is blatantly obvious from Sidious begging for mercy and saying that he had no power left, but the instant Windu's lightsaber was off him, he immediately sprung back to full power and obliterated Windu with one lightning blast).

As an additional strike against the "duelists always win" thing, Darth Tyranus defeats Obi-Wan twice and Anakin once (at least in the movies, as I haven't seen the Clone Wars show; still, it shows that Force specialists can still win).

Regarding Mace Windu vs Darth Sideous, it's actually cannon that because of the nature of Windu's Vapaad Style lightsaber form, accepting an opponent's Dark Side energy into himself and using it to fuel his attacks against said opponent, he could continue fighting nonstop without need for food or rest literally until he died of old age.

By the same token Sideous was so overwhelmingly strong in the dark side, wile also a swift and HIGHLY skilled lightsaber duelist (he wrecked a few Jedi Council members in seconds flat) that he was essentially invincible.

Long story short, it's confirmed that Windu and Sideous would be the "two immortals locked in combat until the end of days" scenario, where the "end of days" is one of them dying of old age. That would be Windu. Because Sideous, although he LOOKS like an old man, is a master of life-extending Dark Side alchemy, and probably already has a longer life span than Windu without the need to extend it further.

The reason Sideous "lost" was this: HE THREW THE MATCH. Thats right, Windu gained the upper hand through environmental factors, IE being right on the window, but there is no way a Sith as intelligent and manipulative as Sideous would allow himself to be led into unfavorable terrain unless that was exactly what he wanted - all part of his plan to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. It worked, brilliantly.

Another combat, Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn vs Darth Maul was alsodecided by the environment, Qui-Gon was a master of Ataru, an acrobatic form that uses the force to fuel swift leaps in and out of range and rapid lightsaber strikes. Yoda displays this same form later, but much more clearly. Why? His battlefield had much more room to maneuver in. Qui-Gon was no match for Maul's agressive, yet fully-capable-of-fighting-in-closed-quarters Juyo form in the tight confines of the force field hallway. Wierd *** architecture anyway if you ask me, but meh.

Satele Shan vs Darth Malgus, also, was decided by the enviroment. Specifically the fact that Jace Malcolm was there, and not-dead. In a vacuum, Malgus would have killed her even with how incredibly overpowered the Shan bloodline is what with Battle Meditation and a direct ancestry to Jedi Master Darth Revan (i know, isn't that a fun turn of events?), as before Malcolm's grenade-y intervention, which was awesome by the way, and is i believe the reason he needs a respirator now, Malgus was clearly winning. Jace bought Satele enough time to cast Force Paste-You-To-A-Boulder without Malgus using an 8-second interrupt.

And thats the thing you need to keep in mind. These epic battles DONT take place in a vacuum. there are environmental factors and other people to keep track of, always. Which is why, in a vacuum, Juyo Marauder Emperors Wrath would be able to fight Sorcerer Nox to a standtill until someone aged to death (Vapaad), but any other Marauder would lose to a Sorcerer, and every other matchup would be a coin toss.

Untill you account for their surroundings. Any number of people or things could give one or the other the upper hand, and allow them to win even when ordinarily they would be entirely outmatched. Wolverine is a good example. Yes he is immortal, and also invincible, meaning he absolutely cannot die ever no matter what. He's also a skilled and strong fighter. But at the end of the day, sometimes he still loses those fights. He just survives to try again later. Which means even if Nox fits the same criteria, that doesn't mean he automatically wins. Could he win? Yes. Could he lose? Yes.

Which is why, in a vacuum, Juyo Marauder Emperors Wrath would be able to fight Sorcerer Nox to a standtill until someone aged to death (Vapaad), but any other Marauder would lose to a Sorcerer, and every other matchup would be a coin toss.

No TOR era Sith knows Vaapad because it was created by Mace Windu.

No TOR era Sith knows Vaapad because it was created by Mace Windu.

Ah, my apologies. I assumed the basic principal stood for Juyo forms in general (of which there are many) but...I can see why that probably wasn't a good idea. You know what they say about assumptions. .-.

Sorc > Mara no matter what then I suppose XD

In vacuum naturally. I would never suggest outside influence couldn't tip the scales.

But that's all based on precedence in lore. I believe Bioware's official stance on the immediate lore is that the Hero of Tython, the Barsen'thor, the Captain of Havoc Squad, the Voidhound, the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Imerinoxulus, the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt, and Cipher Nine are all about equal. For the tech-users of that list, it goes to show just how truly exceptional of sentients they are, as they can stand as equals among not just any force-user, but the absolute best force-users in the known galaxy up to this point. Typically Jedi/Sith are much more powerful than their non force-sensitive comrades.

So yeah, all a bunch of ******es regardless of Advanced Class choice.

Tyranus defeated them with lightsaber, not with force. Also Satele never defeated Malgus. Both times she survived becouse of "teamplay".

Point is - every fight always ends up as saber duel. It's much more fun to watch then force duel. So they use it every time. And the best fighter wins. Even if he is less powerful in the force.

Tyranus defeated them with lightsaber, not with force. Also Satele never defeated Malgus. Both times she survived becouse of "teamplay".

 

Point is - every fight always ends up as saber duel. It's much more fun to watch then force duel. So they use it every time. And the best fighter wins. Even if he is less powerful in the force.

I think, while Darth Vader was more technically skilled and far more experienced, his Force connection had been badly damaged by the wounds of Mustafar and his cybernetics, and the less-experienced-but-much-stronger-in-the-Force Luke Skywalker had that weakness to thank for his victory in Return of the Jedi. Also, Dooku used both a lightsaber and the Force directly; he did get some nice lightning shots in, and the Inquisitor will possess both as well.

Sidious was clearly not fighting with everything he had.

Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.

Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.

Because he's blatantly lying about being out of power, as is shown onscreen by the fact that he has plenty more left when he blasts Mace once the lightsaber is off of him. It seems most likely that the previous hypothesis of the battle effectively being able to continue indefinitely is correct.

Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.

Lost against who? Windu? I don't think so. He let himself be disarmed because that was part of his plan to turn Anakin. The entire thing was orchestrated and perfectly timed. He wouldn't look like a victim if he was spinning his lightsabre when Anakin marched in. I though this was so obvious that 6 years old can easily decipher.

Lost against who? Windu? I don't think so. He let himself be disarmed because that was part of his plan to turn Anakin. The entire thing was orchestrated and perfectly timed. He wouldn't look like a victim if he was spinning his lightsabre when Anakin marched in. I though this was so obvious that 6 years old can easily decipher.

To be fair, it's not unknown for official sources to give terrible explanations for things, like saying that stormtrooper blaster rifles have inherently bad accuracy, as opposed to just saying that the accuracy wasn't that bad for the situations they found themselves in. Which is true; many times, they were simply herding the heroes (on the Death Star and at Cloud City), while at other times, they were perfectly accurate and lethal (Tantive IV, Tatooine, Hoth). The only genuine screwup was at Endor, and that was pretty explicitly arrogance of the sort that RL elite soldiers are hardly immune to.

To be fair, it's not unknown for official sources to give terrible explanations for things

This isnt just ANY official source, it comes from Lucas.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Sorry fans. Windu > Sidious in that battle.

This isnt just ANY official source, it comes from Lucas.

 

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

 

Sorry fans. Windu > Sidious in that battle.

Sure, Palpatine would have been happy to destroy Mace had he been able to, but had he kept the lightning up, Windu would have continued to be held off (and he could also have rolled out of the way or some similar move). He couldn't destroy Windu outright in that moment, but he only dropped his hands and pretended to be beaten to manipulate Anakin.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY

This not any kind of explanation as to why Palpatine was "overpowered". Lucas is there just stating the obvious - what we can see in the scene superficially. In another words, Mace disarms Palpatine and then Palpatine uses force lighting, plain and simple. He is not denying that Palpatine let himself be "overpowered". In fact I don't think Lucas would ever directly admit that it was part of the scheme (even when it is so obvious). The reason for that is that he would then say that all Jedi failed miserably against Palpatine which would be like saying the dark side is obviously stronger. By that he would infuriate the poor fans who love Jedi.

This not any kind of explanation as to why Palpatine was "overpowered". Lucas is there just stating the obvious - what we can see in the scene superficially. In another words, Mace disarms Palpatine and then Palpatine uses force lighting, plain and simple. He is not denying that Palpatine let himself be "overpowered". In fact I don't think Lucas would ever directly admit that it was part of the scheme (even when it is so obvious). The reason for that is that he would then say that all Jedi failed miserably against Palpatine which would be like saying the dark side is obviously stronger. By that he would infuriate the poor fans who love Jedi.

It doesn't really say that the dark side is stronger (it's logical to say that it may be stronger in terms of aiding combat, because it's all about aggression, but there's more to strength in the Force than combat), just that Palpatine is an abnormally powerful individual, which he is. And Return of the Jedi shows that power clearly isn't everything.

It doesn't really say that the dark side is stronger (it's logical to say that it may be stronger in terms of aiding combat, because it's all about aggression, but there's more to strength in the Force than combat), just that Palpatine is an abnormally powerful individual, which he is. And Return of the Jedi shows that power clearly isn't everything.

Yes you are right. I poorly expressed myself. It would actually mean that at that point in history no Jedi could rival this Sith. I see this scene as two-fold: primary it shows the cherry on the top of the cake of Palpatine's great manipulation; and secondary it is a candy for Jedi lovers to calm them and let them believe Windu actually defeated Palpatine.