they're the best dueling class in the game and have been since the game's inception. ok. that's kind of relevant in stealing nodes or being the last man standing in an arena. that's a very specialized distinction and a very far cry from being the best pvp class. they were, in fact, nerfed to the ground for at least 2 years, more iirc.

 

your intricate mental gymnastics in an attempt to distinguish a "closer" from a "mobility aid" is an exercise in irrelevance. all "mobility aids" are used as escapes, closers, and resists. the problem with nerfing roll is that it is the class' primary dcd.

 

for example, blade bliz (sent's mad dash) is on a similar 45s cd. it's a closer, escape/movement buff, and a tool to resist big dmg. ops use roll exactly the same way. the big difference is that ops can roll 3x-4x more frequently. HOWEVER, you cannot simply stretch out the CD on roll and call it a day. sentinels have an entire bag of tricks to mitigate/avoid dmg that ops don't have. pacify, rebuke, saber ward, GBF, transcendence, 2 stealths ever 45s. that actually dwarfs what an op has. it's just that ~60% of an op's dcds are "rolled" into roll. so no. it's not at all as simple a matter as nerfing roll. it's a rat's nest to disentangle.

 

and arguing over whether something is a "closer" or a "movement ability" is...I don't even know what? is irrelevant strong enough? a pointless tangent? I'll tell you what it looks like. it looks like you want to prove how smart you are and make a meaningless distinction so you can "win" an argument on the internet.

 

I'm all for getting rid of roll. the game engine/maps cannot handle it. I'd like to get rid of it entirely. but that requires rethinking the class dcds and mobility entirely. furthermore, I'm conflicted about the "power" of ops because they're a bit of a plague in regs. but the thing that makes them so bad in regs isn't why they're popular in arenas. yeah, they can move and escape but honestly, they're just a good stealth class in arenas. in regs, they bug out on half the maps.

 

edit: the power creep for mobility especially but dmg abils too is very noticeable in 6.x. between the set bonuses, amps, and tacticals. I think it went a bit overboard.

 

Hold up now.Lets not make the mistake that being the best 1 on 1 class in the gamedoesn't play out in being strong in groups. Just because it holds true for being the best in 1 on 1 doesn't mean they aren't strong in group fights as well.Put a group of all operatives together and they aren't weak. They're damn strong and have always been strong. I say they're the best pvp class in the game and have held that position \within the games life span over ANY OTHER CLASS. Now if you have the opinion that there is another class that holds this distinction over operative, please let us all know because my pvp friends want to know.

 

I made an argument and backed up my argument on how a gap closer is significantly different from a mobile ability and I included how they are different from eachother. The difference between mad dash being a moblity ability and force charge being a gap closer is significant and certainly not irrelevant simply becase you can, at times, use a gap closer to escape a danger to go to another enemy target you deem to be of lesser danger. Nor is it irrelevant because you can use a mobility ability like roll to close the gap to an enemy. The significance is more apparent with the low cooldown of 12 seconds for roll. I'm not sure if I can explain it differently without repeating myself. We may have to agree to disagree? Because I fail to see how you can't see they are significantly different and therefore relevant in making the distinction between the two. I still think the best way to make you face up to the fact that the distinction between a gap closer and a mobility ability isn't irrelevant and that you can't chuck every ability that moves your guy as "mobility aids" is to place yourself into someone else's shoes. If my rage jug's force charge was changed from a gap closer to a mobility ability like roll, it would be huge and certainly not irrelevant. This is If I could move like an operative with dash,I think I'd blow your mind since you haven't grasped that there is a significant distinction to make it relevant. I wont ask you if you're sincere but I dont understand how you can't see that its so significant that its relevant to make the distinction between a gap closer and a mobility ability.

In your mind, is the difference between the two so irrelevant and insignificant that you would change your operative roll from a mobile ability to a gap closer that requires an enemy target? If you're honest with yourself and you're not willing to do that, then there is a significance and it is relevant. I wish I knew how to underline my next sentence. Establishing a basis on how powerful roll is with its mechanics and 12 second cooldown is the first step in choosing if thats what should be changed on an operative and in my opinion it is.

 

Now you brought up sentinals and about their bag of tricks and you compare them with operative. The discussion we are having is on the topic of operative roll. I want to stick to the topic and not go off topic so maybe make another thread so you can explore fully the difference in strengths between the two.

 

I think I was clear that nerfing operative was going to make operativs cry so, no minor thing. At least the strong nerf I'd like to happen wouldnt be a minor thing. DidI ever suggest it would be easy? If we dont want things to be the same, there needs to be a change. Will it be messy? You bet. Will it take more than one patch to adjust them after a major nerf? yep. Do we need a minor nerf bandaid fix where the problem will creep up again? Hell no.

 

Please keep your emotions in check. Are you going to start name calling soon? "mental gymnastics" and you feel I just want to win an argument. I can't control whats in your head and only you can do that and put yourself in check. Otherwise if its not just in your head, point to exactly what I said that made you think I'm just here to win an argument and lets see if you're doing the mental gymnastics

Edited June 20, 2021 by eiekal

/eyeroll

 

operative roll should not exist. it needs to be replaced. period. end of story.

 

however, it is so important to the class, that you cannot simply replace it. it's their primary dcd, integral to their escape and an invaluable closer.

 

movement buffs are closers with greater utility. some classes have more of one than another and different abilities intended to compensate. lolroll does a ton more than buff mobility. you clearly went a long way (mental gymnastics) to argue that "gap closers" and "mobility buffs" cannot be compared for the sole purpose of forwarding your agenda to nerf roll, and that my friend, is horse ****.

 

yes, the cd is too short. no, lengthening the cd doesn't address the core problem with roll. but you keep writing those walls of text.

/eyeroll

 

operative roll should not exist. it needs to be replaced. period. end of story.

 

however, it is so important to the class, that you cannot simply replace it. it's their primary dcd, integral to their escape and an invaluable closer.

 

movement buffs are closers with greater utility. some classes have more of one than another and different abilities intended to compensate. lolroll does a ton more than buff mobility. you clearly went a long way (mental gymnastics) to argue that "gap closers" and "mobility buffs" cannot be compared for the sole purpose of forwarding your agenda to nerf roll, and that my friend, is horse ****.

 

yes, the cd is too short. no, lengthening the cd doesn't address the core problem with roll. but you keep writing those walls of text.

 

My response to you was long because I took the time to respond to all your points and address them. It looks like you dont want to give me the same curtesy and make a argument or agree to each of my follow-up responses. So it looks like our conversation is done. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

 

We can agree to disagree.

even when I have to wait until they want to nerf this hideous class ... they are not enough with the immortal sors, juggs, mercs ?? !! ... but the operatives and scoundrels are a real nightmare ... . IT'S NOT POSSIBLE THAT YOU CAN'T DO ANY DAMAGE !!!!!! I'M TRYING TO CONTAIN THE BAD WORDS.

Roll = evade all damage, reflect damage, invisible at ease, heal while moving, heal static, hit again and leave you poisoned, heal and hit, heal and hit ..... THEY ARE STUPIDLY IMMUNE TO EVERYTHING. ... THIS REALLY IS HORRIBLY ANNOYING UP TO THE GRADIUM OF HATE .... also they make you feel at ease, that is, if there is a natural cheater class ENDORSED BY YOU, IT IS THIS .... THE WORST AND MOST HATE OF THE GAME. ...

You can't possibly need 3 players to have to kill this hideous class ...

EVEN WHEN !!!!!

EVEN WHEN!!!!

UNTIL WHEN AND YOU DO NOTHING !!!!!!

 

This about sums it up. lol 100% agree. Broken class is broken. They even gave them knockbacks now…

 

oh have you also seen the set bonus that gives them a roll time reduction and double stuns (thats already on a 26 second cooldown)? Devs need to really reconsider what they are adding to the game and the consequences they have when they make things like this.

Edited June 21, 2021 by SOULCASTER

 

operative roll should not exist. it needs to be replaced. period. end of story.

 

Clearly it's not the end of story as we are discussing it

Clearly it's not the end of story as we are discussing it

 

clearly you're incapable of reading context as you've clearly pulled that line out of its. but that's ok, pumpkin, I forgive you.

Was in a warzone just now,3 operative in opposite team none for ours, operatives roll 3 times and cap game over. I think since bioware is not going to fix it players have to. Start quitting/leaving any huttball with operatives. The PvP queus will become long since everyone will be on CD often after huttball queue and or let 8 opertvies duke it out with 8 other operatives lets see how they enjoy that/ 8 op vs 8 op hutt balls

 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! It would be funny if they had to play against each other, spy vs spy HB. They would be on the forum in 30 min asking for nerf. BW really needs to fix the f@#$% obstacles in HB so they can't just fly through it.

You could do it similarly to snipers. Make roll 1 charge and 25s (20s?) cooldown. Make evasion last 2s longer and reduce F/T damage by 75%. Make countermeasures grant way more speed than it currently does. Stim boost ~ Ballistic and Vanish ~ Div. Seems like the DCDs would be similarly powerful, except op has healing which compensates for its being melee. I would suggest that your replace holotraverse entirely (it doesn't work anyway) with a gap closer that works like force charge, where it rolls you (non-instantly) to a target on like a 15 second CD, but doesn't resist any damage. Hopefully the fact that the movement happens visibly will prevent it from causing massive desync and/or killing the user.

/eyeroll

 

operative roll should not exist. it needs to be replaced. period. end of story.

 

however, it is so important to the class, that you cannot simply replace it. it's their primary dcd, integral to their escape and an invaluable closer.

 

movement buffs are closers with greater utility. some classes have more of one than another and different abilities intended to compensate. lolroll does a ton more than buff mobility. you clearly went a long way (mental gymnastics) to argue that "gap closers" and "mobility buffs" cannot be compared for the sole purpose of forwarding your agenda to nerf roll, and that my friend, is horse ****.

 

yes, the cd is too short. no, lengthening the cd doesn't address the core problem with roll. but you keep writing those walls of text.

 

Their escape is stealth and they also have a "leap" that cane be used on teammates. I'd be fine with roll if they returned it to how it functioned in 2.0 where it cost meter and it had a very very very short distance. Do that and get rid of the invincibility talent and the hots for the dps specs and give scrapper shoot first back with the knockldown and the class is fixed.

Their escape is stealth and they also have a "leap" that cane be used on teammates. I'd be fine with roll if they returned it to how it functioned in 2.0 where it cost meter and it had a very very very short distance. Do that and get rid of the invincibility talent and the hots for the dps specs and give scrapper shoot first back with the knockldown and the class is fixed.

 

And lets get rid of the permanent passive black out for all stealths and make it an ability again that you need to click. This permanent black out has dumbed down all stealth and removed a skill layer required to use stealth classes.

Edited June 26, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

Amén.

Since operative role in HB causes problems due to desync shouldnt "exploiting" a bug to win be counted as cheating. Which means they should be banned from pvp for exploiting desync for lets say a month?

And lets get rid of the permanent passive black out for all stealths and make it an ability again that you need to click. This permanent black out has dumbed down all stealth and removed a skill layer required to use stealth classes.

 

Ya that was a pretty dumb change. You can literally stand in front of people and they'll never see you. Unless you talented into it back in the day you actually had to be smart about how you approached someone else you would get spotted.

 

Since operative role in HB causes problems due to desync shouldnt "exploiting" a bug to win be counted as cheating. Which means they should be banned from pvp for exploiting desync for lets say a month?

 

Using an ability isn't cheating and desync isn't something you can exploit. One person might see a desync and the other wont. My ping to the server is usually around 7ms so I rarely if ever notice a desync. People with 100+ are going to see it more frequently.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Raansu

Since operative role in HB causes problems due to desync shouldnt "exploiting" a bug to win be counted as cheating. Which means they should be banned from pvp for exploiting desync for lets say a month?

 

How can you ban a player for playing the game the way it’s designed. If you are on the operative that Desyncs, you can’t see it happening. Only the other players see it. As far as the operative is concerned, everything looks normal.

 

So how can you ban a player because of that? It’s not their fault Bioware make such a crap engine and coding that it makes them desync everytime they roll in HB.

 

What should happen if Bioware can’t fix it, is they should remove Hutt Ball permanently or disable roll in Hutt ball if the player has the ball.

Edited June 27, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

Since operative role in HB causes problems due to desync shouldnt "exploiting" a bug to win be counted as cheating. Which means they should be banned from pvp for exploiting desync for lets say a month?

 

Finally someone on the forums that makes sense. Ban all operatives. Actually, wait. Ban everyone that dsyncs. Jesus christ you're so smart.

Edited June 27, 2021 by septru

What should happen if Bioware can’t fix it, is they should remove Hutt Ball permanently or disable roll in Hutt ball if the player has the ball.

 

I'm of the opinion movement abilities shouldn't work at all when carrying the ball. With that said, they wont do that so at the very least they could fix the damn leap bug in huttball. They acknowledged not being able to leap to players near the endzone was a bug and they still haven't fixed it 5 years later *sigh*

conc op in 1v1? dummy strong, sedative is so annoying. mixed with the debilitators set and the burst tactical? 5 stuns (including grenade) and a root. Roll on a 8 second cooldown. Constant passive heals from abilities and utilities and to top it all off a stealth out. Never fight a half decent conc op in a 1v1. You will most definitely lose then complain about it on the forums.

 

in 4v4s and 8v8s they're just great though. Class stacking is dumb and its more matchmakers fault then the class itself. As others have said desync is more the games fault then the classes fault. (I do wish volatile substance was cleansable tho)

I'm of the opinion movement abilities shouldn't work at all when carrying the ball. With that said, they wont do that so at the very least they could fix the damn leap bug in huttball. They acknowledged not being able to leap to players near the endzone was a bug and they still haven't fixed it 5 years later *sigh*

 

What’s crazy at the moment is they’ve basically already done that to Inquisitor and other classes. They’ve fully Nerfed anyone (but operatives) with the ball. My speed run on them with the ball is slower than walking without the ball.

 

Even predation has been Nerfed for ball carriers and the speed buff in QB hardly works at all for ball carriers now. But you still need to get it to have a chance to move faster than a snail.

 

Where as operatives get double roll and aren’t really affected by the slow down if they have the ball. And if they get the speed buff too and take the right utilities, they are mostly unstoppable in HB and that’s before we take their immunities into count. It take nearly 3/4 of a team to stop an Op scoring in QB. But it only takes a couple of players to stop any other class because they can’t move. And that’s before operatives or anyone else stuns you or slows you down.

 

And poor Juggs now have it worse than before because they don’t have any natural speed boosts and as you say, force leap is STILL F’ing broken in QB/HB end zone are, except it works in Vandin Ball.

 

You should try fighting in the end zone in original Hutt ball on a Jugg. You can’t even leap in your own end zone. So operatives and any class with a speed ability can just run away from you. All you’ve got is mad dash when it’s off CD, but as soon as you use it they speed away. Bioware really need to fix the broken leap for Juggs and maras (to a lesser extent) in HB because you can’t even properly defend your own goal without it,

 

I think everyone knows I use to love HB, but with the bugs and changes and Desync over the years, I now loath all HB maps. It’s obvious Bioware can’t fix them and any attempt just makes HB worse. At this point they should remove HB from the rotation. They can still leave it in the game for people who want to do challenges, but it should be removed from the normal queue pops.

Where as operatives get double roll and aren’t really affected by the slow down if they have the ball. And if they get the speed buff too and take the right utilities, they are mostly unstoppable in HB and that’s before we take their immunities into count. It take nearly 3/4 of a team to stop an Op scoring in QB. But it only takes a couple of players to stop any other class because they can’t move. And that’s before operatives or anyone else stuns you or slows you down.

.

 

You do know you can just push them right? Also mercenaries have it better in huttball 2x 20 meters jumps and immunity to knockbacks and more speed boosts. Also they can actually push people back if needed and heal to full + reflect at the same time.

You do know you can just push them right? Also mercenaries have it better in huttball 2x 20 meters jumps and immunity to knockbacks and more speed boosts. Also they can actually push people back if needed and heal to full + reflect at the same time.

 

Explain how you push them when they roll and have immunity?

Explain how you push them when they roll and have immunity?

 

1.5 seconds immunity vs the entire duration of Hydraulic Overrides seriously, if you only push them when they roll that's on you. Hell on quesh huttball u can push them to their deaths on the top platform and in any other huttballs u can push them to the ground forcing them to either pass the ball to someone or die for having the ball for too long. Learn not to white bar them with useless stuns. Knockbacks are worth more than stuns in huttball. Also fun fact, powertechs can pull operatives even through roll.

1.5 seconds immunity vs the entire duration of Hydraulic Overrides seriously, if you only push them when they roll that's on you. Hell on quesh huttball u can push them to their deaths on the top platform and in any other huttballs u can push them to the ground forcing them to either pass the ball to someone or die for having the ball for too long. Learn not to white bar them with useless stuns. Knockbacks are worth more than stuns in huttball. Also fun fact, powertechs can pull operatives even through roll.

 

What has hydraulic override have to do with operative roll? As for pushing them, you also need to have it off cool down and on a class that can push. What are the other classes supposed to do?

 

Also, have you tried using hydraulic override lately while holding the ball. It’s about as useful as not using it since Bioware Nerfed ball carrying.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Totemdancer

What has hydraulic override have to do with operative roll? As for pushing them, you also need to have it off cool down and on a class that can push. What are the other classes supposed to do?

 

So the only classes that don't have pushes are maras, PTs (they got pull tho!) and other operatives (unless they use the utility which cmon unless ur a healer u don't use that) what they can do is use roots and slows or pulls in PT's case. Force crush for fury mara or gore for carnage, do it right and with gore u can prevent them from rolling and someone can push em.

 

Also, have you tried using hydraulic override lately while holding the ball. It’s about as useful as not using it since Bioware Nerfed ball carrying.

 

U use hydraulic for immunity to knockbacks while u use rocket out to score, works even better than operative's roll because of the longer distance.

Edited June 27, 2021 by DeathRexRO

So the only classes that don't have pushes are maras, PTs (they got pull tho!) and other operatives (unless they use the utility which cmon unless ur a healer u don't use that) what they can do is use roots and slows or pulls in PT's case. Force crush for fury mara or gore for carnage, do it right and with gore u can prevent them from rolling and someone can push em.

 

Sentinels have three roots: Leap, Blade Barrage, and Leg Slash. The latter two require utility points to get the root, and only the Blade Barrage root is even remotely worth taking.

 

The Concentration snare is...okay, but it does not last very long.

Sentinels have three roots: Leap, Blade Barrage, and Leg Slash. The latter two require utility points to get the root, and only the Blade Barrage root is even remotely worth taking.

 

The Concentration snare is...okay, but it does not last very long.

 

It lasts for 1 GCD and u can combo it with other abilities or other team members. Please don't tell me you expect to stop someone from scoring by yourself on a class w/o knockbacks, unless you're a Powertech that ain't happening vs any opponent, you're there to slow them down.