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The Final Debate - Who was more powerful, Darth Nox OR The Emperor's Wrath


ItsGonky

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Today, I ask a question. A question that many people have been asking on these forums. The question can be simplified into Sith Inquisitor VS Sith Warrior but I am not interested in who is more powerful in terms of combat, abilities etc.

 

No, I ask lore/story-wise who was more powerful. Darth Nox definitely had the superior bloodline and he became a member of The Dark Council whereas The Emperor's Wrath was handpicked by the Emperor himself to enforce his will.

I would like to split this complex question in multiple areas

 

Who had more power (politically)?

Who was more respected within the Empire?

Who had better training?

Etc

 

One thing I really hated about the sith warrior was that he was literally a sith version of Hulk who was literally used by others, Valkorion, Baras, Vowrann, Marr etc. However, the inquisitor was cunning, manipulative and my assassin/shadow was literally a combination of Maul's ****** side and Palpatine's manipulative and clever side. The inquisitor is smart and actually wants to take clever steps to eventually overthrow the emperor himself.

 

Let me know your thoughts! :)

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I think they balance out.

 

The Wrath had no actual authority of their own, it was all due to being a 'Hand of The Emperor'; The Inquisitor (who could also be Darth Occulus or even Darth Imperius) possessed forces loyal to them personally such as the cult on Nar Shaddaa and their Silencer Fleet.

 

The Inquisitor was self-made, pulling themselves up from being a slave and basically learning everything 'on the job' so to speak; the Wrath is stated to have been one of the best trained and skilled initiates and put on an accelerated path by the Overseer on Korriban.

 

As for respect/fear (in the Empire, is there any real difference?), it becomes a more complicated question since it depends on the beliefs and sometimes even hypocrisy of others and how that makes them view The Wrath and Darth 'whatever'. There would be those who would ignore that The Darth has a Deshad loyal to them and is on the Dark Council and would only focus on their origin as a slave despite the power they had gained since (coughThanatonthehypocritecough) while others might see them as the Sith Code made manifest, 'Through The Force, My chains are broken, I am set Free.' The Wrath might be looked at as a survivor and an embodiment of the Emperor's Will by some, but others would consider them a fool for not expecting and preparing for Baras' betrayal, especially considering that one of their first missions was to kill one of the then-Lord's loyal operatives just to cover up the connection, and would point out that their former-master pretended to be an embodiment of the Emperor's Will so could the apprentice really be telling the truth....

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Both Nox and Wrath have a powerful birthright. With Nox it's explicit due to Kallig, but with Wrath it's implicit - Baras acknowledges your strength in the force and chooses you because of it.

 

What differs between them is that while Wrath depends on this alone for his power, Nox is constantly seeking ways to increase his power. In my opinion Wrath starts out stronger in the force, he doesn't find a challenge he can't beat. Meanwhile, Nox needs to find craftier ways to deal with his problems and at times fails to beat his opponents. This teaches Nox valuable lessons and then drives Nox to search for more power, he is forced to gain to knowledge and power at a rapid rate to outmanoeuvre his enemies. Wrath on the other hand is a blunt instrument who throws himself at anything that opposes him.

 

Nox is ever increasing his power to the point where I believe that Nox becomes more powerful than Wrath.

 

It is very much like the relationship between Sidious and Vader. Vader (Wrath) is stronger in the force, or at least was. Sidious (Nox) is a mastermind in the force, a master of ancient sith rites and rituals and the true figure of power between the two. He knows how to use his power in the most effective ways, and knows how to gain more of it. Vader (Wrath) has a limit to his (albeit extremely high) power, a high floor but not much room before the ceiling. Sidious (Nox) never stops learning and outpacing his enemies.

 

 

Anyway that's my opinion at least!

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I'm wondering where this idea that Nox (or Imperius/Occulus) is somehow crafty is coming from? The same Nox that bumbled their way from trap to trap and only got out by the luck of having people who were ACTUALLY CRAFTY (remember your 'miracle' on Nar Shaddaa was NOT your idea?), willing to throw down their lives (Khem at end of chapter 1), riding on the coat tails of Zash's research (how you wind up with Andronikos and even Talos), having an apprentice who little more than a Broonmark who is a little more talkative as an APPRENTICE who you fail to impart anything resembling knowledge or wisdom to, even for your own benefit? Nox is the story of someone who was at the lowest of the lows, who rose in defiance to the traditions of the Sith in every way. Nowhere did we see Nox impress upon others a marked distinct power level with the Force or any feat other than the binding that even they were surprised to have surprised. That's not to say that Nox had to be arrogant to be 'strong' or 'powerful', but it shows that they're just as clueless as the player. They were even clueless about attaining the DC rank upon Thanaton's death, a death that was if you all would recall, NOT AT YOUR OWN HANDS. You end chapter 3 with a powerbase but nothing of substantial note beyond the Silencers with Moff Pyron and the shambles of your following on Nar Shaddaa with Rylee and Destris who were the defacto second in commands, dead. You keep your ghosts, the crew,

 

The Wrath is a weapon, we all know. A leashed hound who originally answered to no others but the will of the Emperor, but as the story developed, Wrath expanded to a true tip of the Empire's spear. From the connections you are allowed with powerbases using Baras' political enemies and old attache's, youbuild something formidible but something you can say you actually built with your own ambitions in mind. Wrath sought vengeance, not to survive. Survival was only a means to the end, not the end. Meanwhile, Nox struggled to keep the ghosts they captured from killing them, getting scolded by their lucky ancestor Kallig as their powerbase they built because of plans suggested and operated by their cult did the heavy lifting. And I get it, the Warrior had break after break. You could say Baras carried the whole first chapter and you were JUST a lap dog, but the strength was raw and every strike was with intent. The Wrath by the end of Chapter 3 had the will of the Emperor to back them up, the Dark Council recognizing their power with Marr being the one to say he would not defy the Emperor's Wrath and Vowrawn as an unabashed ally.

 

Wrath wins politically, hands down. In regard to combat? The Wrath is literally there to be able to cut down any member of the Dark Council. I know you said put aside combat but really, even if we did, the Wrath is the final say so because the Emperor, and then the Empire is. We have no idea how much more 'powerful' Nox was becoming in their off-season, or on Rishi after the class mission added years of life to them but we have not seen a single thing to attest to this amazing massive power. As far as respect goes, the council will always be a step below the Wrath who acts not on their own motivations but on those espoused by the Emperor and then in the best interest of the Empire. Hell, members of the same council did not like Nox upon their ascent and defiance of tradition was not very popular (*looks over to the later events on Ilum*).

 

That said, no, the Inquisitor is not smart. It could be with how dialogue is handled but the Inquisitor was not throwing successful ideas or schemes out there. They operated almost independently of the Empire's greater presence, spent a majority of the time taking L's, walked into trap after trap and was actually killed for it once, and if they were smart, the Kaggath that contributed to the doom of the Empire's war effort at the end of the cold war could have been avoided. 1/3 of its military forces, gone.

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Pretty sure the last time this question was asked there were like 40 pages of replies.

 

Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything Casus has said. Nox has taken far too many L's for me to seriously consider them an equal to The Wrath. The Inquisitor storyline is my second favorite, but it definitely does not do the Inquisitor any favors when it comes to depicting them as cunning / fearsome. Tenacious but that's about it. However, to your question:

 

I'd give Nox the nod for more political power given that they have a sphere of influence at the end of their class story and they become a Dark Councilor. In theory they could create mandates that have an effect on The Empire as a whole.

 

I'd give The Wrath the nod for who is more respected (feared) in The Empire. By the end of the Warrior's class story you've solo'd the power bases of both factions multiple times over and it isn't a secret. Both sides know it. The Wrath kills far more individuals of renown from both factions.

 

I'd also give The Wrath the nod for who had better training for being able to do the aforementioned.

 

It isn't the Inquisitor's fault. The Wrath was just written as the second coming of the Sith and it shows. You stomp everyone and everything that you come into contact with; killing entire rooms full of Republic / Jedi at will. The Wrath walks into the front door of just about every noteworthy opponent he faces and wins. OP mentions they don't care about combat, but martial prowess / potential is tied directly to perceived power especially in The Empire.

 

It doesn't help that the final line in The Wrath's class story, we have the option of threatening every member of the Dark Council at the same time. Their response is "As you Decree, Wrath."

 

When you threaten them as Nox, Marr immediately checks you and says "You'll find us more than a match for your threats."

 

So yea, from a story / lore perspective I don't think there's much of a comparison. They wrote The Wrath to be the nightmare that keeps the republic and the Sith up at night.

 

Wrath: 1 // Nox: 0

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  • 2 weeks later...

Something occurs to me to add to the debate;

Both the Warrior and the Inquisitor were betrayed; the Warrior by Baras and the Inquisitor by Zash and Thanaton.

 

From my point of view; the Warrior survives because The Hand believes that they will be useful and saves them to serve the Emperor, the Inquisitor survives Zash because of Khem's sacrifice and Thanaton by the aid of their ancestor and other Force Ghosts keeping them alive and Zash's-now-their apprentices recovering their near-dead body.

 

It seems to me that the Warrior survives because others want to use them, while the Inquisitor survives because others are loyal to them.

 

Thoughts?

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Something occurs to me to add to the debate;

Both the Warrior and the Inquisitor were betrayed; the Warrior by Baras and the Inquisitor by Zash and Thanaton.

 

From my point of view; the Warrior survives because The Hand believes that they will be useful and saves them to serve the Emperor, the Inquisitor survives Zash because of Khem's sacrifice and Thanaton by the aid of their ancestor and other Force Ghosts keeping them alive and Zash's-now-their apprentices recovering their near-dead body.

 

It seems to me that the Warrior survives because others want to use them, while the Inquisitor survives because others are loyal to them.

 

Thoughts?

 

I like this. It really shows the difference in the way The Wrath and Nox were written. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong as I haven't played the story fully in quite some time.

 

The way I remember it, after Draag bombs the tunnel that The Wrath is in it knocks him out. When Servant 1 and 2 find him, they explicitly state to offer no assistance. The Warrior will only be worthy of the mantle if he can survive on his own, and they leave your *** there.

 

The Wrath gets up through sheer force of will and survives on his own unassisted. This to me is the theme of The Wrath's story. Unmatched power from within with which he dominates the world around him. An inner strength that's on display the entire story from start to finish.

 

Nox on the other hand is the complete opposite. Talented yes. From a distinguished bloodline like The Wrath, yes. However, the vast majority of Nox's power came from external sources. It was mostly external help / outside influence that saved Nox from himself, Zash, and Thanaton. It's pretty clear that The Wrath did not need saving. You rampage across the galaxy doing the impossible.

 

I'd say The Wrath's survival revolves around the fact that he's driven. The game doesn't make his personal motivations explicitly clear (outside of Vengeance) until Vowrawn asks you what you want from the empire, and you have the option to tell him. Marr also gives you the opportunity to talk about your motivations. I think it's less about people wanting to use him, and more about "Why" The Warrior embraces the position of "The Emperor's / Empire's Wrath". Which is up to the player to decide.

 

I think Nox's motivations and desperation are front and center from earlier on. There's a pretty solid sense of urgency and dread in the character during the story. Most of which revolves around not wanting to be killed by Thanaton, or some crazy scheme his team cooked up. Even so I would say that Nox survives not only in large part due to his team, but his unwillingness to accept the status quo. That mofo is stubborn.

 

Again love em both, but this is why I think from a lore perspective there isn't even a question as to who is more powerful, feared, etc. One was written as a hunter (Wrath) and one a survivor (Nox).

 

tl;dr

 

Wrath: Through strength I gain power, through power I gain victory.

Nox: Through victory my chains are broken.

 

May the best man win lol

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