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Vanguard Feedback Thread


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  • Dev Post

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Vanguard.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Vanguard? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different discipline, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  • As you’re beginning from level 1, do you feel you have enough abilities that keep gameplay interesting?
  • Are you able to defeat enemies at a reasonable rate?
  • Do all your abilities feel like they’re working together?

 

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

Thank you!

 

EDIT: Added additional feedback questions.

Edited by JackieKo
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I second the lack of fleet droid on Ord Mantell.

I can't see it anywhere in the starting area nor at Fort Garnik, so I'm levelling up to 10 so that I can get the emergency fleet pass.

 

 

First impression back on the PTS is that having a gap between level 1 and 23 for the ability tree is too much. I can kind of get that the devs maybe want new players to get to know their base abilities before playing with the ability tree, but a) you don't get every base ability before level 23 and b) 23 is just a weird number to start at.

I still think that there should be ability morphs for the last two discipline specific abilities - which would completely fill the gaps that currently exist.

 

Secondly, storm / rocket charge are STILL opt in abilities. This is terrible and needs to change. Harpoon is not a substitute for the vanguard or powertech's gap-closers - of which they have none baseline. Harpoon does not pull you into a boss so you can deal damage. Harpoon also has 3x the cooldown. Vanguards and powertechs are melee combat styles and as such, NEED a gap closer baseline to effectively engage their targets.

 

Imagine marauders and guardians without force charge. No one would play them. It makes no sense whatsoever that the combat styles with the least amount of base abilities lost both their gap-closers simply to fill an ability pruning quota (and I'm only saying that because I truly have no idea what other reason there is for making both gap-closers on a melee class opt in).

 

If the devs are indeed certain on neutering the ways in which vanguard and powertechs can engage their targets, they should instead become a half range combat style where every ability has a 15-20m range (apart from maybe stockstrike though it could just have different animation at range). If this were to happen, I'd be much more ok with storm and hold the line being opt in.

 

If storm is once again made baseline, the level 35 slot storm currently holds could just be replaced by a passive granting storm an additional charge or reducing its cooldown when you are attacked (the same as the live guardian utility).

 

Editing this just to say that having looked at a class trainer and the levels we will be getting abilities, I am thoroughly glad that I have as many max level characters as I do. I originally thought I'd love levelling new characters with 2 combat styles, but I really don't want to level a new character if I have only 3 active abilities between 1-15 and have to wait til 23 to get my first discipline ability. This seems like it will be a fairly poor new player experience in my opinion.

Edited by LordCamTheGreat
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Secondly, storm / rocket charge are STILL opt in abilities. This is terrible and needs to change. Harpoon is not a substitute for the vanguard or powertech's gap-closers - of which they have none baseline. Harpoon does not pull you into a boss so you can deal damage. Harpoon also has 3x the cooldown. Vanguards and powertechs are melee combat styles and as such, NEED a gap closer baseline to effectively engage their targets.

That's why you got 10 meter abilities, more standoff distance as a trade off for poor gap closers. And it's not like VGs weren't one of the best pve classes before storm was baseline in 3.0 either. p.s. since the other passives suck you just take storm in that row almost every time anyway, who cares.

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That's why you got 10 meter abilities, more standoff distance as a trade off for poor gap closers. And it's not like VGs weren't one of the best pve classes before storm was baseline in 3.0 either. p.s. since the other passives suck you just take storm in that row almost every time anyway, who cares.

 

The point of an ability tree is that each level should make you think about the options inside it.

If one of the choices stands out so far above all the others and is an auto-take, then the ability tree system will have failed before it launches.

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The point of an ability tree is that each level should make you think about the options inside it.

If one of the choices stands out so far above all the others and is an auto-take, then the ability tree system will have failed before it launches.

 

100% THIS!

 

Each choice in the tree should be interested for the player, not punishing.

For example, we should not be choosing between storm and harpoon. We should be getting Harpoon and then having three choices on how to augment it to suit our playstyle. We should get Energy Shield and then three choices on how to augment it to suit our playstyle, etc. We should get Shoulder Cannon and then have three choices that augment it. These three augments can be made out of existing skills and utilities, thus allowing the combining of abilities and reduction, and having either/or choices that at least make sense.

The ability choices in every planned Combat Style in 7.0 are filled with punishing choices instead of interesting or compelling ones.

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If one of the choices stands out so far above all the others and is an auto-take, then the ability tree system will have failed before it launches.

Vanguards and powertechs are melee combat styles and as such, NEED a gap closer baseline to effectively engage their targets.

Your posts don't seem to be agreeing with each other, "This needs to be baseline vs these two options aren't as compelliing". A lot of classes have choices that are pretty cut and dry, operatives choosing stun for pvp, sorcs choosing phase walk, Maras getting undying, etc. It is a consequence of existing utilities being pressed into direct competition with each other (though those harpoon talents are kinda weak).

 

A class shouldn't have better range, mobility, and defensives than all its cometition. It has to have something it lacks that you have to play around. VG as is has too much of everything and needs to lose something.

Edited by Cavtarus
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VG seems almost the same as live. Which I can not tell you how HAPPY I am for that. I have been dreading this xpac for months, and detested many many MANY things (still do btw) BUT being able to test one class I like and its not gutted or screwed up extensively? I actually have some small glimmer of hope and happiness to hang onto when the deluge of negative things I dont like assaults me when 7.0 releases, so hopefully that small hope can withhold me to continue to play.

 

I detest the "choice" at lv73, I wish I had all 3. But can't change it, so have to live with it like a passive aggressive relationship. The name changes seem.....odd? But as long as they work the same, I dont think i'll care.

 

So atm, if it has to launch like this? I think I can be ok with it. It plays the same as my current build. (Just missing the hard CC, a few passives and the tac that gives instant energy blast with power yield/infused kolto pack activation. Which......I LOVE IT, but if I have to sacrifice something else, I can live without it.) Please try to keep what its current build is on the PTR as close to what it is when it goes live. (Unless other people who know VG tank better then I do, have better ideas.)

 

It is hard for me to say something positive, as this xpac is changing so many different things, and its making the people I have been playing with for 8-9 years leave the game, and its very very very saddening. :( But I dont wish ill will on any of you, so stay safe none the less.

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I can't figure out if I did something wrong or if this is the way it's supposed to be. I had transferred my Vanguard Tank a few tests ago and then went to use the PTS upgrade to 80. There was nothing on the ability trainer.

 

  • Pulse Cannon being the "default" choice in the tree was very confusing (level 27 choice). I can't even tell how it is different than Ion Storm other than it has to be channelled. It seems like a downgrade and is REALLY unfun to use in battle due to the channel.
  • Disruptor Rifle being the "default" choice in the tree was very confusing (level 43 choice). When I was looking for Energy Blast.
  • Storm being renamed Impact Charge was very confusing. I thought my leap was missing the entire time I tested. Combat is much less fun without leap lol.
  • Power Yield I can't figure out if it is missing or got renamed or replaced.
  • I still had Cryo Grenade even though I chose Shield Cannon in the level 73 choice. This fixed itself when I re-chose a different option, then re-chose Shield Cannon.
  • I thought I was missing a ton of base abilities because of these at first combined with the lvl 73 choice that actively removes abilities.
  • Level 35 choice - I CAN PULL ALLIES!?!?!?!?! TRANSPOSE MOVE OVER! A NEW TROLL HAS BEEN BORN!
     

 

I tried to make a new level 1 but with no droid to shuttle me I didn't feel like levelling on Ord Mantell lol.

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Playin a level 75 copy from live felt pretty similar. Testing Tactics only.

Easy to understand but wow full paragraphs on some of those skill descriptions!

I never liked harpoon but I don't hardly ever tank or pvp so not something I'd use anyways. Didn't mind having to choose storm over it.

Not a fan of the last tier of choices.

Happy with how it turned out so far and looking forward to adding a second combat style.

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Dear SWTOR team,

 

Here is my feedback regarding all 3 specs for Vanguard.

 

Before jumping into specifics, I wanted to give some general info:

 

1. Thank you for updating the tooltips, they were very clear and I actually knew what I was selecting. I was also happy that I got some of the abilities when I was testing them for Powertechs.

 

2. Updating some names and icons felt really nice in general, at least it gave me a new feeling, which I appreciate.

 

3. Overall, the rotations did not change. Some good choices on the ability trees and such. The only thing that I might be concerned (but not tremendously), is leveling for classes in general. The first utility you get at like lvl 20-23. So, you will not really get many abilities on the first planet or two (I was leveling vanguard, because I could not find the PTS fleet droid for the life of me). Currently on LIVE, I am usually able to do heroics without companions and even when I am lower level. This was not the case this time, it did provide some challenges. It is not a bad thing (besides, I don't think the heroics are intended to be soloed with not so good gear and lower level than the enemies without companion anyway) so that is at least one thing to ponder about and as I said, it is not a bad thing, but it might be worthwhile to just think about it to see if the changes that you are making are going to be good (I think they are ok).

 

Shield Specialist

 

My favorite tank in SWTOR. I want to say that you did a great job with the changes! While you preserved the passive bulkiness of the class, you added just a few modifications to things like Power Yield (now called Infused Kolto Packs) to give some healing actually. That is tremendously helpful for this class. The fact that you can modify your Energy Blast to go from AoE to single target is a nice change. You will not always have many targets to hit, so it is nice to have options like that. Some changes related to Ion Storm and Battle Focus. I think all of the changes are good. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR GRAPPLE PULL ALLIES! That is awesome, Translocate in my opinion is hard to use and it is hard to find a situation for that skill, but having grapple to pull an ally is a great way to do something like Translocate. I do have a question about that though: "Does grapple intend to reduce threat of the ally, if you pull them?"

 

Plasmatech

 

Some great changes that I absolutely loved: modifying your Shockstrike to be an AoE attack or empower your Plasma Cell or Ion Pulse with Plasma Flare, modifying your Incendiary Round - making it an AoE+detonator triggered by the ion wave), making your high impact bolt a DoT, or making the Incendiary Round a burst attack. Honestly, this is what specs like Plasmatech need. It is mostly a DoT spec, so having some options regarding either empowering your DoTs, or becoming less sustained and more burst is amazing in my opinion. One choice seems to be very interesting: when you activate Kolto Overload, it increases the stack of your Power Yield, and it can either reflect damage back at the enemy or having your Sonic Missile heal allies. I wasn't able to test that, but I do have a question whether one effect replaces another: like if you activate Kolto Overload, you will automatically have reflections, but as soon as you use the Sonic Missile, will those reflections disappear? Also, I am guessing the stack increase for Power Yield will work only if it is already present?

 

Tactics

 

Overall the flow of the spec did not change. Some options are nice to have regarding modifying your Gut or your Cell Burst. You can have either more DoTs, more burst, or more AoEs which is really helpful for Tactics, that is for sure.

 

Thank you for your work, this PTS phase was A LOT better than the previous one.

 

Let us see where it leads,

 

ViShAsh

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[*]Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Vanguard? Why or why not?

When choosing Armor Piercing Round, it feels odd with it not applying a DoT. But for the most part, yes. I'm able to tank a little damage as a melee character being in the middle of things, yet not like I can just face-roll stuff when things get intense.

 

[*]If you have feedback on the different discipline, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

  1. Storm should not be an option. As others have said, it's the gap-closer. That's the very reason why it was added to Vanguard in the first place. When it was added, the post about it said that it was needed.
     
  2. Armor Piercing Round is an odd one. I'm not sure what kind of combos it would be good for other than fun since it replaces Incendiary Round. That I'll have to leave to the guide makers. I'd have a better idea if I could parse/knew how to parse when on PTS.
     
  3. Heavy Plasma Round isn't applying a debuff. I can't tell if it's even working or not because I don't know how to get parsing working for PTS (if that's possible).
     
  4. I do enjoy what looks like choices between burst, AoE, and DoT. But without parsing I can't say how much I like it compared to live.
     
  5. It is odd not having reserve power cell. I think I'll live though.
     
  6. Why is Cryo Grenade an optional ability along with Hold the Line? I don't understand that either.
  7. Why is Hold the Line all the way at level 73? I guess it's not bad since you can level up so fast now.
     
  8. I also encountered a bug where I had to change disciplines just to be able to change ability tree options.

Edited by HKtheindomitable
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Plasmatech

 

Some great changes that I absolutely loved: modifying your Shockstrike to be an AoE attack or empower your Plasma Cell or Ion Pulse with Plasma Flare, modifying your Incendiary Round - making it an AoE+detonator triggered by the ion wave), making your high impact bolt a DoT, or making the Incendiary Round a burst attack. Honestly, this is what specs like Plasmatech need. It is mostly a DoT spec, so having some options regarding either empowering your DoTs, or becoming less sustained and more burst is amazing in my opinion. One choice seems to be very interesting: when you activate Kolto Overload, it increases the stack of your Power Yield, and it can either reflect damage back at the enemy or having your Sonic Missile heal allies. I wasn't able to test that, but I do have a question whether one effect replaces another: like if you activate Kolto Overload, you will automatically have reflections, but as soon as you use the Sonic Missile, will those reflections disappear? Also, I am guessing the stack increase for Power Yield will work only if it is already present?

 

Nice writeup. You had me confused for a min until I realized you mixed the Bounty Hunter ability names into the Trooper feedback.

 

How did you manage to get Power Yield? I can't find it. Same with the association of Adrenaline Rush affecting Power Yield and Sonic Round healing allies. I'm guessing it's because I can't see Power Yield.

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Please reconsider Cryo Grenade being optional. In general the new policy on stuns seems kinda strange. Some classes get to keep theirs, some completely lost theirs (Mara/Sent), some have it as an option with little competition, and some (live Vanguards) have it competing against essential abilities.

Every class should get its single target stun baseline. It is an absolute must in PvP and in some operations (especially Dxun) hardstuns are very important as well, but so is Hold the Line which it is competing against.

 

I also have a question about Shield Specialist. There is now the option of turning Ion Storm into a channeled ability again, which is quite fun, but it seems absolutely trash how it is right now. For some reason despite being a 3 second channel vs an instant ability, it does less damage than Ion Storm? It is a downgrade in every single way. I get that maybe you don't want it to be the BiS choice because you don't want melees to have channels. But still, considering it takes twice as long (so you're giving up a GCD) it should do more damage than Ion Storm, not less.

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I can't figure out if I did something wrong or if this is the way it's supposed to be. I had transferred my Vanguard Tank a few tests ago and then went to use the PTS upgrade to 80. There was nothing on the ability trainer.

 

  • Pulse Cannon being the "default" choice in the tree was very confusing (level 27 choice). I can't even tell how it is different than Ion Storm other than it has to be channelled. It seems like a downgrade and is REALLY unfun to use in battle due to the channel.
  • Disruptor Rifle being the "default" choice in the tree was very confusing (level 43 choice). When I was looking for Energy Blast.
  • Storm being renamed Impact Charge was very confusing. I thought my leap was missing the entire time I tested. Combat is much less fun without leap lol.
  • Power Yield I can't figure out if it is missing or got renamed or replaced.
  • I still had Cryo Grenade even though I chose Shield Cannon in the level 73 choice. This fixed itself when I re-chose a different option, then re-chose Shield Cannon.
  • I thought I was missing a ton of base abilities because of these at first combined with the lvl 73 choice that actively removes abilities.
  • Level 35 choice - I CAN PULL ALLIES!?!?!?!?! TRANSPOSE MOVE OVER! A NEW TROLL HAS BEEN BORN!
     

 

I tried to make a new level 1 but with no droid to shuttle me I didn't feel like levelling on Ord Mantell lol.

 

Pulse Cannon was the old channeled ability years ago (commandos used to have it too lol :D) But they replaced it with Ion Storm because they felt a non-moving channeled ability wasn't fun for a moving tank. BUT I am glad they added it back as an option for OG people who liked it.

 

Yeah, I like Energy Blast more, Disruptor Rifle is basically the same just more damage.

 

IKR! I was VERY mad till I saw that they changed the name of Charge. IMO they REALLY dropped the ball on communicating changes and just left us to figure them out. That's poor communicating skills at best, mean spirited at worst.

 

Power Yield was renamed to Infused Kolto Pack, and it heals now. Its a change I can like. Was freaked out too that got removed! :eek: But found it, so I calmed down.

 

I am still upset i'm losing cyro granade though. :(

Edited by Lakemine
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This is wrgon for many reason not to give very class back their stuns like cryo grenade it is an epicly useful skill that is useful not just in pvp like some thing but pve, flash points, and operations. it has many uses and times to use it. but not letting every class have their stun or making it part of three very useful skill/passive choose you are telling the players that you only care about some classes and the others may aw well be nothing. please give very class back their stun like cryo grenade it is the only right thing to do.

Thank you for your time.

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Nice writeup. You had me confused for a min until I realized you mixed the Bounty Hunter ability names into the Trooper feedback.

 

How did you manage to get Power Yield? I can't find it. Same with the association of Adrenaline Rush affecting Power Yield and Sonic Round healing allies. I'm guessing it's because I can't see Power Yield.

 

Sorry about the confusion, I was kinda pulling ability names from the back of my mind. I think it might be called Thermal Yield. The tooltip should give you a description that when you take damage, you will increase the stack that gives you increased damage and armor. Up to 5 stacks, and it can last up to 30 seconds.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello,

Here is my feedback/recommendation on the current state of VG/PT's. Any constructive discussion is more than welcome.

 

Discussion points:

 

Defense:

- The class overall feels that it's missing something at max level. I feel they are missing a defensive active cooldown that wouldn't impact the class balance a lot. Therefore I would like to propose to make "Decoy" baseline for both VG-Commando and PT- Merc. This way you could give a slight buff (absorb 2 attacks) and give a more complete feel to the VG and PT.

- The ability already exists, so it only needs to be added to the shared ability list.

 

Mobility

- Every melee class has a default mobility ability even before considering the skill tree (leap, speed,roll). VG/PT's only have harpoon (which has a 45 sec cd) and both "Storm/Charge" and "Hold the Line/Torque Boosters" are on the skill tree.

- I propose "Hold the Line/Torque Boosters" (6sec version) become baseline for VG/PT's, and the skill tree place be swapped for the "+4 sec duration".

- This way you can have a more meaningful choice at that skill tree level on whether you want to control (stun), a little survivability (healing), or more mobility. As it stands currently, the ability (hold the line) is so important that no one will choose the other 2 options in either PVE or PVP, so the choice is pretty much irrelevant.

- Making it baseline will keep the current mobility level and a more meaningful decision in the skill tree.

 

Animations

- This is more of a pet peeve of mine than a bigger issue, but as everything is being worked on, I thought I would bring it up: VG animations.

- Shooting: as it stands today the VG blaster rifle shoots: Hammer shot, High Impact Bolt, Tactical Surge, Cell Burst, Flak Shell, Ion Wave,Harpoon. This always felt awkward compared to its imp counterpart.

- Proposed solution: High Impact bolt and harpoon use the PT wrist-mounted gun animation. This way we can have a little variety with no huge overhaul. The animation already exists, colors are the same (physical attack, so no energy shot needs to be recolored) and could be swapped with little effort.

- Storm animation: speed up the animation. Playing both VG and PT I always noticed how sluggish the "Storm" animation looked compared to "Jet Charge". I wouldn't even mind if the "Jet Charge" animation is applied, instead of "Storm".

 

And overall that was it. VG/PT feels okay, just missing that little piece, but overall I like the new changes.

Really hope any of my inputs get seen and considered. Cheers!

Edited by fenrir-zs
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  • 2 weeks later...

Very late to the party of providing feedback - probably too late in reality.

 

However, it occured to me yesterday, while I was theorycrafting for 7.0, that with the Veteran Ranger being a potential legendary in 7.0, there might finally be merit to the shoulder cannon heal utility.

 

However, the final state of the PTS had you choose between Guard Cannon / Cryo Grenade / Hold The Line...

 

This talent tier seems to be extremely unfavoured, since the only real choice to go for is Hold The Line / Hydro Override, when it comes to PvP.

 

Without an on-demand movement boost and slow purge, Vanguard would essentially be the only class in the game that is unable to disengage from a melee fight at will, or, at the very least, the only class unable to purge a slow from itself. Vanguards are already very squishy when tied up, and if we can no longer deal with being slowed, we will have to turn even more to a playstyle of 'fire and forget' akin to 6.x.

 

I feel that Hold The Line / Hydro Override should either be baked into the Vanguard kit by default, or at least not compete with Guard Cannon if the Shoulder Missile build is ever to become viable.

 

Maybe Guard Cannon should be moved to the level 80 tier instead?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally got around to testing things out.

 

1) First and foremost, Storm & Impact Charge. While Impact Charge is given to tanks, Storm needs to be baseline for dps also. This is a melee class. It needs to close the gap with what ever it's fighting and be allowed to use it's abilities. You can not rely on a movement increase from abilities like Hold the Line to be a gap closer. The cd on that is to high and we lose our movement ability for when we need it. Something like Harpoon isn't ideal either. As some mobs like bosses can't be pulled, nor do you want to reposition mobs away from where the tank has them so you can start your dps a few seconds earlier. If you're insistent on it being an ability to select as a choice understand that this is a must pick ability then, and we don't really have a choice at level 35.

 

1A) Reserve Cables the 2 charges is good for pvp. Pull an enemy of a squishy, they gap close back and pull them again. Or pull an enemy out of position. They force speed back, or get pulled back themselves, and you pull them back again. Sure this works for pvp. However I would not take this over Storm. This is a good choice for a tank who already has Impact Charge. The Extraction Plan portion feels odd on tanks. Sure you can pull someone to safety, however I feel like this would have been a better option for dps. Here's why. As a dps you can also use this in PvE and pull a friendly who is out of position to you. A tank can not or should not do so in PvE, because there's a good chance that squishy will just get cleaved by the mobs on the tank. Unless you're into trolling your team mates. It would have been a better option for a dps in my opinion.

 

Blazing Harpoon, the Plasmatech's other Harpoon utility. *** is this? Why is it here? Negligible 4k damage and a 6s slow. Compared to Tactic's Pull & Pummel, which does 10.5 to 11.2k damage 20% kinetic Stock Strike damage increase and has a 3 second stun. I mean again I wouldn't take either one over Storm, but if that ever became baseline again, someone needs to look at balancing the two abilities against each other cause this is sad. Truly, truly sad.

 

2) Pulse Canon for Shield Tech. Please explain this to me. What was the thought process here? What does the channel offer? More damage? That's cool, however in the time to finish the channel you can fit an extra ability in there, so you're not really gaining anything. Maybe slightly better aoe damage, but overall you're not really gaining anything from this, while giving up the other options that this tree offers.

 

3) Paralytic Aug another thing I'm not really following. This last tier talent essentially relies on the fact that you took Cryo Grenade on the talent before it. If you didn't, it's worthless as an option. Meaning that technically we have 2 options in our last tech tree as opposed to 3. An ability tree should be independent of the previous talent. I understand that someone will say Efficient Tools also affects Cryo Grenade but at least it does other things as well. Where as Pralytic Aug, only increases Neural Surge stun duration by .5 seconds for a last tier talent if you don't have cryo grenade.

 

4) Shield Tech This feels very barren in terms of abilities to use. It always has, but for some reason even more now. Losing Cryo Grenade Power Reserve giving up Stealth Scan (hardly used but still) for either of the other 2 options, transpose is also situational enough to where I took the extra grapple but will experiment with this, and my bar feels so empty. Especially when you're used to playing with 3 full bars that are hot keyed and 2 other bars that were there.

 

5) Armor Piercing Round I want to bring this up, because I don't want to be completely negative on the changes we've had. I will give credit to where credit is due, and credit is definitely due here. See this here, this right here is an amazing choice for an ability in a tier tree. It's an ability that changes a dot to slightly less powerful burst damage ability. You give up the dot spread of Incendiary Round and Ion Wave spreading it by taking Armor Piercing Round, and you do slightly less damage, but you gain burst and put a debuff on the target. This right here is how, meaningful options should be done. (Not we're taking away Storm and giving you two useless Harpoon options that you'll never take, can you tell how annoyed I am at that still?)

 

This is a choice to consider even without looking at the other options in the same tier. Because it changes how you play all by itself. While some will bring up other abilities that change as well I.E Tactical Strike which changes Shock Strike from single target damage ability to an AoE damage ability, it's not the same thing. Tactical Strike just buffs Shock Strike. Nothing more nothing less. You compare that buff to other buffs in the talent tree for the same row, and you decide if the aoe buff is worth it or not compared to the other options. APR completely changes an ability, with it's own up sides and downsides irrelevant of the other options in the tree. Don't get me wrong you're still going to consider the other options as well. However APR having downsides of it's own, means you consider if they're even worth it to start wtih, and then if so, then you compare it to the other abilities in that tier tree.

 

Pick the ability and you no longer have the dot spread capability, your damage goes down a bit, but again you gain burst & a debuff on an enemy. You can no longer even fire of Incendiary Round on an immune boss prematurely because once the immunity goes away in a second or two, they will take damage and you save yourself a GCD thus increasing your dps. Where as APR has to be used after the immunities go away. These are all minor things to be considered and I love it. I love what this change does. I get not all options can be like this, and in fact only a few should be, however it's just really well done and I want to stress that. A++ here in my onion. The one thing I noticed is that the animation seems to be bugged as there's no animation that I notice here. They just take damage and that's it.

 

6) Not Vanguard specific, but the white outlines on the abilities you've chosen could be better visually shown. The white outline while can be seen, I imagine is going to be a pain in the butt for those with visual problems or smaller monitors, or even just new players. I would suggest at least graying out the ones that are not picked.

Edited by Setta
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1. Mobility. Vanguards need both Storm/Impact Charge and Hold the Line. These abilities should be granted to all players by default, and are not remotely equivalent to grapple in gameplay. They are so important that I cannot imagine taking a different choice on the level 35 or 73 choices in any scenario. Vanguards also need some form of gap closer at lower levels. On live, they get Hold the Line somewhere around level 25. But on the PTS, Hold the Line is only an optional ability at level 73. So Vanguard DPS get no mobility until level 35, and tanks have to wait even longer, to level 51. This really, really, needs to be changed. I know other people have said this, but it needs to be said again.

 

2. Low level ability granting. While I was able to kill most enemies, the combat at low levels is exceedingly dull. Stockstrike and High Impact Bolt have long cooldowns, resulting in me using Hammer Shot about 75% of the time from level 1-14, because I simply had no other attacks off cooldown. From level 15+, when I got Explosive Surge, story mobs were not as bad. But heroic mobs and story bosses still required the boring rotation until I got Ion Pulse at level 35.

 

3. Endgame rotation (Tactics). On live, the Meteor Brawler set's energy reduction after Battle Focus, Recharge Cells, and Reserve Powercell, are all very important to energy management. They can be rotated to fix energy management mistakes or increase damage at several points during the rotation. On the PTS, the more powerful Recharge Cells is nice, but it doesn't make up for losing both the set bonus and Reserve Powercell, and it is considerably more difficult to manage my energy cells. I would suggest making the Meteor Brawler version of Battle Focus available in some way.

 

Other than these things, most of the changes to the class seem to be fine. I don't have a full set of max level gear and augments on the PTS, so I was unable to test damage output.

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So this is probably beyond the scope of this particular patch, but I believe this separation of combat styles from their classes is the perfect time to begin divorcing the Advanced Classes from one another. In this case the Vanguard utilizes the same resource as the Commando and plays very similarly to the Power tech when they could be very different. Their could be a spec that has a greater focus on melee weapon combat, their could be a spec that is a "grenadier" that focuses on tossing grenades and of course the tactical spec can still mix the two in some way. With tech characters all able to choose between the 8 freely we do not need 4 of them to mirror each other any more.
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