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Disappointed with "Echoes of Oblivion" (yet not surprised)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Disappointed with "Echoes of Oblivion" (yet not surprised)

rashencyberspeed's Avatar


rashencyberspeed
01.29.2021 , 03:29 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
The game still assumes one is with you, at the very least for T7, as he's part of the cutscene when you fight Vitiate, and neither on Voss not on DK is Vitiate at his peak, in both cases he's weakened, which is why the PC can defeat him. And in the case of the SW he himself wants the SW to kill that particular Voice.

You can free them thanks to the holocron, and you didn't consume their power, Valkorion did. Then the PC has the advantage of being in their own mind, and anyways, Arcann and Vaylin both help you fight Valkorion, whether you killed them both or not, so you are NOT alone.

The versions of Tenebrae / Vitiate / Valkorion our PC fight are always a weaker version of him, no matter the encounter.
The only characters who fought him at full power are Revan, Meetra and Scourge in the Revan novel and even the 3 of them together had a hard time, and there is no guarantee they'd have defeated him even if Scourge didn't turn on them (considering his vision, it's more than likely they'd all be dead anyways), and maybe the Jedi strike team (including the JK) who was completely obliterated without Vitiate breaking a sweat (and it's not even sure he was at his strongest as part of him was probably in Valkorion at the same time).
Honestly, considering how powerful he's been established to be (and the guy had to do quite a lot in his 1000 years of living to get to that point), the PC defeating him all alone, even in that weaker version of him we meet there would feel far too OP/Mary Sue-insh to me. And having everyone to defeat him once and for all felt far more satisfying to me, as Revan, Meetra and Scourge were finally able to help us finish what they started 300 years ago, than being some kind of all powerfull god like him. I personally like my character being strong/powerfull, but not being the most powerfull thing ever.
To play Devil's advocate for a brief bit, I DO think Valkorian was at full power when we fight him at the end of KOTET. But the fact still remains we needed help from Valkorian's family, as well as the special circumstances of being within the Outlander's mind, to win.

It it still fair to say that it's unrealistic that in a straight fight, with no help, special abilities, or circumstances whatsoever, our PC probably couldn't beat the Emperor alone. (And if they could, I would have to complain to BioWare that since our PC is obviously the most powerful being in the galaxy canonically, I should be allowed to usurp the Emperor's scheme and become ruler of/destroy the galaxy myself.)

ruffolofi's Avatar


ruffolofi
01.29.2021 , 04:28 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
The game still assumes one is with you, at the very least for T7, as he's part of the cutscene when you fight Vitiate, and neither on Voss not on DK is Vitiate at his peak, in both cases he's weakened, which is why the PC can defeat him. And in the case of the SW he himself wants the SW to kill that particular Voice.
Just like he is in EoB, which kind of proves my point, no?

Quote:
You can free them thanks to the holocron, and you didn't consume their power, Valkorion did. Then the PC has the advantage of being in their own mind, and anyways, Arcann and Vaylin both help you fight Valkorion, whether you killed them both or not, so you are NOT alone.
If they were simply freed why would they still linger around by the time of EoB? We also have to take into account who the player character is here. If it's the Inquisitor then they absolutely did consume Arcann and Vaylin's power. For other classes, Valkorion consumed their power, but then the Outlander took control of their spirits and now their strength is part of him/her instead. Obviously it didn't just vanish or otherwise you wouldn't have dragged them with you to Satele's mind.


Quote:
Honestly, considering how powerful he's been established to be (and the guy had to do quite a lot in his 1000 years of living to get to that point), the PC defeating him all alone, even in that weaker version of him we meet there would feel far too OP/Mary Sue-insh to me. And having everyone to defeat him once and for all felt far more satisfying to me, as Revan, Meetra and Scourge were finally able to help us finish what they started 300 years ago, than being some kind of all powerfull god like him. I personally like my character being strong/powerfull, but not being the most powerfull thing ever.
That's fine. It's why I said it should've been one of the options, not the only one. So that each player can experience the story they feel fits their character best.

rashencyberspeed's Avatar


rashencyberspeed
01.29.2021 , 05:16 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ruffolofi View Post
Just like he is in EoB, which kind of proves my point, no?
I thought it was implied that he was indeed at full power in Echoes. Possibly stronger, given that he could manifest three versions of himself. He just lacked the wisdom of his later incarnations.

Quote: Originally Posted by ruffolofi View Post
If they were simply freed why would they still linger around by the time of EoB? We also have to take into account who the player character is here. If it's the Inquisitor then they absolutely did consume Arcann and Vaylin's power. For other classes, Valkorion consumed their power, but then the Outlander took control of their spirits and now their strength is part of him/her instead. Obviously it didn't just vanish or otherwise you wouldn't have dragged them with you to Satele's mind.




That's fine. It's why I said it should've been one of the options, not the only one. So that each player can experience the story they feel fits their character best.
Considering the story that would've suited MY character (at least my dark-sided one) best if he was capable of beating the Emperor alone would be to single-handedly dominate the entire galaxy with no one to oppose him, which would mean that we couldn't have any further game, I don't think this is much of an excuse. That's the problem with a constantly-updating MMO like SWTOR. They can't make you so powerful that you'd break the story, but at the same time they can't make your character willing to make decisions that would get them killed.

ruffolofi's Avatar


ruffolofi
01.30.2021 , 03:32 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by rashencyberspeed View Post
I thought it was implied that he was indeed at full power in Echoes. Possibly stronger, given that he could manifest three versions of himself. He just lacked the wisdom of his later incarnations.
No, that's not true. His original body has been destroyed as well the two more advanced forms of himself. This version of Tenebrae is merely a wisp, a fragment, a damaged spirit that is merely holding on to existence. When we encounter him he's still in the process of "rebuilding" himself (which is probably why he doesn't have the wisdom or memories of Vitiate and Valkorion) and comments it's taking a lot longer than he anticipated. It's like Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets - a very young version who does not have the experience or wisdom of the older version but is still very dangerous and powerful.

Quote:
Considering the story that would've suited MY character (at least my dark-sided one) best if he was capable of beating the Emperor alone would be to single-handedly dominate the entire galaxy with no one to oppose him, which would mean that we couldn't have any further game, I don't think this is much of an excuse. That's the problem with a constantly-updating MMO like SWTOR. They can't make you so powerful that you'd break the story, but at the same time they can't make your character willing to make decisions that would get them killed.
That's a bit of a stretch and a poor counter-argument. What I have talked about in this thread and the suggestions I have made wouldn't make it impossible for the game to be continued. All I'm saying is there should've been different options to how you want to deal with Valkorion. Allowing the player to join forces with him only to be betrayed by him and forced to kill him alone wouldn't break the game. And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it.

rashencyberspeed's Avatar


rashencyberspeed
01.30.2021 , 06:49 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ruffolofi View Post
No, that's not true. His original body has been destroyed as well the two more advanced forms of himself. This version of Tenebrae is merely a wisp, a fragment, a damaged spirit that is merely holding on to existence. When we encounter him he's still in the process of "rebuilding" himself (which is probably why he doesn't have the wisdom or memories of Vitiate and Valkorion) and comments it's taking a lot longer than he anticipated. It's like Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets - a very young version who does not have the experience or wisdom of the older version but is still very dangerous and powerful.
Whether or not his body was destroyed is irrelevant. This is his essence we're talking about here. Which means he should have every bit of power over the force as he did before. Thanos in Endgame is a better analogue than Tom Riddle. (Endgame Thanos is a younger version that has less wisdom and experience than his Infinity War self, but is just as powerful.)

Quote: Originally Posted by ruffolofi View Post
That's a bit of a stretch and a poor counter-argument. What I have talked about in this thread and the suggestions I have made wouldn't make it impossible for the game to be continued. All I'm saying is there should've been different options to how you want to deal with Valkorion. Allowing the player to join forces with him only to be betrayed by him and forced to kill him alone wouldn't break the game. And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it.
You think my counter argument is a stretch? You think it's poor? Hypocrite. Sounds to me like you can't accept the flaws in your view and are dismissing them for being inconvenient to you. If I'm going to be a Mary Sue capable of beating the the single most dangerous being in the galaxy alone, why shouldn't I be allowed to go all the way and destroy the game?

"And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it."

Choose between acting in character and not being OP. Great...

Also, remember how the fight with the Emperor went and explain how the heck anyone could beat him alone. I'm sorry, but I don't care how precise you are with your level of OPness. There is NO WAY you could justify beating him alone, or justify NOT letting your character destroy the game if you could.

(BTW, this argument kinda becomes void if you simply consider the idea that after all the trouble you've caused him, the Emperor and his followers may not be willing to even pretend to be nice to you. And/or with the Emperor's newfound youthful cockiness, he may not think he needs to manipulate you and would rather just cut to the chase.)

ruffolofi's Avatar


ruffolofi
01.31.2021 , 02:20 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by rashencyberspeed View Post
(BTW, this argument kinda becomes void if you simply consider the idea that after all the trouble you've caused him, the Emperor and his followers may not be willing to even pretend to be nice to you. And/or with the Emperor's newfound youthful cockiness, he may not think he needs to manipulate you and would rather just cut to the chase.)
If that were indeed the case, then at least there could've been different dialogue options for the player character to at least propose an alliance with the Emperor, even if Tenebrae rejected it and behaved as you suggest. Instead of the same generic autodialogue lines that every player character has now. Being able to control MY characters actions and behavior is the only thing I care about.

Anyway, it sounds like you are getting... emotional. So perhaps we should simply agree to disagree and move on.

jediraiser's Avatar


jediraiser
11.25.2021 , 06:42 AM | #27
soo... No ones gonna complain about the couple of ending cutscenes, how aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanti-climactic they were?

Like how they put Satele to troll us by first saying that THIS is our "victory party" and theres only satele and your character in what looked like her camp on Odessen. And then saying that we destroyed the "most evil being in the galaxies history". No Episode 6 ending where the spirits of the dead would come to "party" with the others... No?
No "Romantic Ending" if your JK an in romance with Kira, talking about all that theyve gone through, about the future etc... No?

And the FUC*ING final cutscene. Lana, LANA *********** BENIKO, the ONLY one who even WASNT in ANY way part of the Echoes of Oblivion, comes to get you home, saying: Kira and Scourge had me pick you up from the hangar
As in, they just left me there for Lana to pick me up and then they "went somewhere".

No "Heroes welcome", no ACTUAL "Victory parade/party"(Episode 6 ending style), nothing... JUST nothing. -.-

The most coolest and CRAAAZIEST part of game, "ending" to the story and the most anti-climactic ending ever...
...
REEEEEEEEEEFUUUUUUUUND!!!