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Solo Ranked Rating is Poorly Designed


Karimloo

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Solo ranked, your rating is based on your 3 other team mates and losing or winning that match.

 

What?

How is that solo ranked or solo rating?

You know what Solo Ranked in Street Fighter IV and V meant? It meant SOLO. AS IN 1 V 1. Because that's how Solo Ranked truly works. Testing two players skills individually.

 

What we have is pure team ranked. You have either Premade Team Ranked or Random Team Ranked.

 

Why isn't it based on individual performance?

Sub 1k dps? Unranked. Sub 2.5k dps? Bronze. 5k dps in a match? Silver. 7k? Gold - Top 3.

 

Calculate total HPS, total DPS, Final blows, Survival, decorations, etc.

 

Losing a match isn't an indicator of your own personal skill. It's an indication of your cohesion with your three other mates. Since you can't coordinate since we have no Voice chat, it's difficult to make callouts quickly during a fight. In Gears of War 5 and other FPS/TPS games, VC is necessary in Ranked Matches. Why can console games have Voice Chat but not MMO's??

 

Tonight, I lost a match because someone left the game mid match to PICK UP HIS UBER DELIVERY ORDER.

Why am I losing ELO? We won a 3v4 on Round 1, the guy died rather fast but at least we could focus harder on the target. Round 2 the guy left so we were down our DPS, and caught 1 and reset, (Full stealth team), and the composition wasn't in our favour, up against, Sage, Merc, Sin. We lost because we just can't really do anything against good players. We didn't have the sustain and as all Melee against 2 Ranged and 1 Melee, it's already their advantage.

 

Then I lost 10 more in a row.

I tanked -200 ELO on this Operative toon and now it's done. Each match was the perfect throw. One guy who stucked start of Round 2 and cussed out the team, a PT that went down within 10 seconds of match start, a Sin that queued without his Set bonus or Two Cloak Tactical, a Sin that didn't chase a 10% Mara, and more than 1 Merc that complained they died through Kolto.

 

Each match I did what I could, I off-healed, I caught kills, I CC'd with Flash and Seismics, I swapped based on Guard/HP, I pulled over 400k each match, going into 1.8 Million on one that I lost as well. For me, DPS doesn't truly matter unless you're killing targets, so dumb parsing numbers means nothing unless you secure a kill.

 

So now I'm sitting in Unranked with 20 wins and 31 losses. All within 2 hours. After my 11 streak loss, I got in a team with a Sniper I was familiar with, a good Merc, and a good Sin. We won.

 

Good synergy, good target calls, good swaps, good CC's, the other team however had 2 good players, 1 decent player, and 1 absolute troll who cost me most than 5 matches, a Sin who sat as the last one standing in Stealth until Acid rolled out.

 

Another Operative I knew sitting in 1700+ lost a bunch of rating and logged out because of the nonsense teams we were stacked on.

 

So why is my Rating subject to the people I queue with? It would make sense in Granked, but in Solo Ranked, the rating system is completely wrong in how it's rating players.

 

In fact, I'm sure it's been discussed before, but doesn't Solo Ranked make more sense to be 1v1? The issue would be that Operatives would be too powerful, but with a few balance changes I think it would work.

 

For example, Operatives can only stay in stealth for about 6 seconds same as Mara's. IDK, something to make Solo Ranked more about what you can do personally instead of dreading a bad composition, or having to queue certain times to avoid certain players.

 

P.S. I also believe we need Rating Decay. The more time your toon is out of the game, the most Rating you lose. You can't just wintrade your way to the top and expect to stay there.

 

That could be the way the Rating is removed over time if you're playing sub optimally in multiple matches, you gain little, but the decay averages you out. Improvement of your play will make decay hurt less over time. But you still would need to be active on that toon. That or just introduce 1V1s.

Edited by Karimloo
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Solo ranked, your rating is based on your 3 other team mates and losing or winning that match.

 

What?

How is that solo ranked or solo rating?

 

Because over the course of many games, you are the only constant, and it is possible to carry games. That's why the better players virtually always tend to have higher elo than worse players.

 

Why isn't it based on individual performance?

Sub 1k dps? Unranked. Sub 2.5k dps? Bronze. 5k dps in a match? Silver. 7k? Gold - Top 3.

 

Calculate total HPS, total DPS, Final blows, Survival, decorations, etc.

 

Tank/heal games are really the only place where raw numbers are very important. In all dps games, it's much more about putting damage on the correct target(s) while surviving yourself. That often means chasing/kiting, which are huge dps losses compared to just tabbing onto the closest target.

 

If you find yourself looking at the ranked scoreboard frustrated that you have top dps and are still losing all the time, I can practically guarantee that you are attacking random targets and costing your teams games.

 

Losing a match isn't an indicator of your own personal skill. It's an indication of your cohesion with your three other mates.

 

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There are absolutely many games where the outcome is out of your control, but there are many more where it is. Cohesion is also rarely necessary. When someone calls what the strat is, everyone should follow it. Sometimes some degree of improvisation is necessary of course, but in solo ranked with random teammates that can't (or shouldn't at least lol) be in voice, it's almost always best to stick to the strat in my experience.

 

Tonight, I lost a match because someone left the game mid match to PICK UP HIS UBER DELIVERY ORDER.

Why am I losing ELO? We won a 3v4 on Round 1, the guy died rather fast but at least we could focus harder on the target. Round 2 the guy left so we were down our DPS, and caught 1 and reset, (Full stealth team), and the composition wasn't in our favour, up against, Sage, Merc, Sin. We lost because we just can't really do anything against good players. We didn't have the sustain and as all Melee against 2 Ranged and 1 Melee, it's already their advantage.

 

Obviously it sucks having a leaver, but they couldn't make it so you lose no elo as that could be easily exploited. Everyone has to deal with leavers, just have to accept it and move on.

 

Then I lost 10 more in a row.

I tanked -200 ELO on this Operative toon and now it's done. Each match was the perfect throw. One guy who stucked start of Round 2 and cussed out the team, a PT that went down within 10 seconds of match start, a Sin that queued without his Set bonus or Two Cloak Tactical, a Sin that didn't chase a 10% Mara, and more than 1 Merc that complained they died through Kolto.

 

I routinely lose 100-150 elo in an evening of ranked. Then other times I gain that much in a similar time period. That will happen if you don't queue selectively. You shouldn't give up on a toon because of one bad night. If you're good enough, you can still climb back, it may just take a while.

 

So why is my Rating subject to the people I queue with? It would make sense in Granked, but in Solo Ranked, the rating system is completely wrong in how it's rating players.

 

Because that's what solo ranked is...it rates you based on wins/losses in 4v4 arenas in a solo queue... It's fair because everyone has to deal with the same downsides. There's a reason better players have higher elo than worse players, and it's not luck or wintrading (most of the time). You've only played 51 games by your own admission. You have to play a lot more than that to get something close to an accurate elo.

 

In fact, I'm sure it's been discussed before, but doesn't Solo Ranked make more sense to be 1v1? The issue would be that Operatives would be too powerful, but with a few balance changes I think it would work.

 

1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.

 

P.S. I also believe we need Rating Decay. The more time your toon is out of the game, the most Rating you lose. You can't just wintrade your way to the top and expect to stay there.

 

Agreed. The addition of win requirements was a big step in the right direction, but rating decay would also be good for the game.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.

 

solo ranked did/does an awful lot to make class balance impossible...

 

  • you cannot assume healer present.
  • you cannot assume tank present.
  • you cannot assume tank and healer present.
  • you cannot assume all dps matches.

 

not that BW was ever any good at balance in the first place, to be fair.

 

but solo ranked (being by far the most popular "high end" pvp) makes balancing near impossible. the only legit thing BW could do, imo, is regularly tweak classes (all of them) to prevent one from perpetually being ideal or the "worst," which is something I have never seen them do. and it would require an inordinate amount of effort even if we weren't talking about BW.

 

in a sense, 1v1 would be easier to balance (you wouldn't have to rebalance and you could homogenize classes/specs), but then you run into the same problems on the list above and class homogenization would be ridiculously worse...imo, ofc. also, it would kill of healing and tanking.

Edited by CheesyEZ
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in a sense, 1v1 would be easier to balance (you wouldn't have to rebalance and you could homogenize classes/specs), but then you run into the same problems on the list above and class homogenization would be ridiculously worse...imo, ofc. also, it would kill of healing and tanking.

 

But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.

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But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.

eh. a lot of people don't enjoy running for life on a dps as the default "correct action" in an arena either (which it is depending on your class). oh. I don't deny that it still requires skill and you can discern the wheat from the chaff over time. but it's really really easy to see how someone playing a dps doesn't do so to have to run away (not really even kiting to kill an opponent so much as being the rabbit whose job is to live longer than the other team's rabbit).

 

anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."

 

however, it's also true that solo queue is antithetical to the idea of a team game. personally, I'm fine with it. it's a compromise game mode. I know it's a compromise. but the "slow" people discussed above are either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this (patently obvious) fact.

 

the balance issue could be easily (and somewhat draconianly) resolved by forcing solo queue to follow the trinity model (thus drastically lengthening queue times and reducing overall pops) or simply getting rid of healer and tank roles from the queue. I don't advocate either of these moves b/c the game mode is and always was a compromise, but there you have it.

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eh. a lot of people don't enjoy running for life on a dps as the default "correct action" in an arena either (which it is depending on your class). oh. I don't deny that it still requires skill and you can discern the wheat from the chaff over time. but it's really really easy to see how someone playing a dps doesn't do so to have to run away (not really even kiting to kill an opponent so much as being the rabbit whose job is to live longer than the other team's rabbit).

 

I completely agree. Especially classes like jugg and mara, where running away is actually the primary differentiator between good and bad players lol. Hopefully 7.0 will change that to some degree.

 

anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."

 

however, it's also true that solo queue is antithetical to the idea of a team game. personally, I'm fine with it. it's a compromise game mode. I know it's a compromise. but the "slow" people discussed above are either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this (patently obvious) fact.

 

It does work though. This is where critics get it wrong. People can complain until they're blue in the face that "I'm dependent on 3 randoms to win," yet solo ranked actually does a pretty good job of ranking people if you play a sufficient number of games. Because you get different teammates, and all of the outside factors even out over time.

 

the balance issue could be easily (and somewhat draconianly) resolved by forcing solo queue to follow the trinity model (thus drastically lengthening queue times and reducing overall pops) or simply getting rid of healer and tank roles from the queue. I don't advocate either of these moves b/c the game mode is and always was a compromise, but there you have it.

 

Forcing tank/heal games would make solo ranked an incredibly boring slog of a game mode. Part of what makes it fun is that all dps games (the majority of games) are generally quick and decisive one way or another. Tank/heal games in solo ranked almost always drag on because without voice comms, hardswaps for quick kills do not happen often unless there's a significant skill gap between the teams. Going to acid frequently gets boring very fast to me, and many other solo ranked players.

 

Also, I enjoy the variety. Even heal/dps games, my least favorite, can be fun when there aren't ap pts involved.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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yes. my experience with trinity matches in yolo (as long as there wasn't a hopeless teammate) was that no one died because you lack communication and also yolo teams tend to lack the synergy between specs that a premade team would have.

 

I think the ideal for yolo is heal/dps or tank/dps for that reason. or all dps. but iunno. it is what it is. this whole game is what it is. I'm weary of trying to change things at this point.

 

true story, I used to queue-up just to turn-in my daily or weekly. I absentmindedly did that the other day then hopped on another character to queue for the daily and found myself locked out for a 15-minute quitter debuff. lul. ok. guess I'll go work on my pool table for the night (custom table/tennis top). just one of the silly things BW has done to make the game "better." not sure I'll be asking for more changes...worried BW might give me what I wished for with another sadistic twist.

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anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."

 

Calling people "Slow" in place of another more profane word is just as insulting. If you can't argue your point efficiently and need to insult others to bully your opinion across, maybe your position isn't as strong as you think it is.

Edited by Karimloo
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Because over the course of many games, you are the only constant, and it is possible to carry games. That's why the better players virtually always tend to have higher elo than worse players.

 

Tank/heal games are really the only place where raw numbers are very important. In all dps games, it's much more about putting damage on the correct target(s) while surviving yourself. That often means chasing/kiting, which are huge dps losses compared to just tabbing onto the closest target.

 

If you find yourself looking at the ranked scoreboard frustrated that you have top dps and are still losing all the time, I can practically guarantee that you are attacking random targets and costing your teams games.

 

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There are absolutely many games where the outcome is out of your control, but there are many more where it is. Cohesion is also rarely necessary. When someone calls what the strat is, everyone should follow it. Sometimes some degree of improvisation is necessary of course, but in solo ranked with random teammates that can't (or shouldn't at least lol) be in voice, it's almost always best to stick to the strat in my experience.

 

Obviously it sucks having a leaver, but they couldn't make it so you lose no elo as that could be easily exploited. Everyone has to deal with leavers, just have to accept it and move on.

 

I routinely lose 100-150 elo in an evening of ranked. Then other times I gain that much in a similar time period. That will happen if you don't queue selectively. You shouldn't give up on a toon because of one bad night. If you're good enough, you can still climb back, it may just take a while.

 

Because that's what solo ranked is...it rates you based on wins/losses in 4v4 arenas in a solo queue... It's fair because everyone has to deal with the same downsides. There's a reason better players have higher elo than worse players, and it's not luck or wintrading (most of the time). You've only played 51 games by your own admission. You have to play a lot more than that to get something close to an accurate elo.

 

1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.

 

Agreed. The addition of win requirements was a big step in the right direction, but rating decay would also be good for the game.

 

I'll be the first to admit to you I'm not the best player on the planet, I've only played this game's Ranked scene for about 2 months now. But with my experience in a pool of competitive games, I can assure you, this is one of the least balanced, and as a result, at times, one of the least fun. But when you get a 2-1 win or loss because you got into a great match with good opponents and teammates, the game at time can shine with class synergy.

 

Furthermore I have never walked into an Arena without my Set bonus. Even if I got globalled I got globalled in my set gear. And I rarely get caught on globals anymore. Part of that learning process came from actually reading my utilities, proficiencies, class guides, YouTube videos, and listening to other players advice. Most people don't attempt to learn a game's mechanics because they think it's hard.

 

You can't guarantee I'm not on target because I know what priorities are. I don't hit into guard and I swap based on whats happening in the fight. If I see a net on an Operative that's low and it isn't my target, chances are teammate Merc who netted him probably wants to secure a kill, maybe he knows that Operative's CC break is on CD. Dumb Focusing on a Target isn't the way to play either, especially if the person who called it made the bad call.

 

This game is a cake walk compared to studying Frame Data in Street Fighter. It's not even remotely close in complexity. You can't drop a cast in this game like you can drop a combo.

 

I don't know where you people jump to this extreme assumption I can't move on with my life because of one bad match. It's like you're fluffing a piece for a highschool paper, just get to your point. I'm talking about the game. And the game's Solo Rating is so up to chance and randomness that the idea that one player can be the constant and as a result is the cause of all failures is such poor logic. By that same thinking every win was because of me as well? It's all about team cohesion. And Solo Rating doesn't reflect an individuals ability accurate enough.

 

But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.

 

There are plenty of 1v1 games, For Honor off the top of my head. If the games duels aren't enjoyable, that should tell you about the games current state. It can be made fun.

Edited by Karimloo
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Dumb Focusing on a Target isn't the way to play either, especially if the person who called it made the bad call.

 

Some degree of adaptability is good, but I promise you this mindset is losing you games. You've played ranked for two months and already think you know better than the experienced players calling strats for you. That's a good recipe for losing games that you should be winning. If you really think that someone is making a bad call, you should point that out to them in chat before the round starts, don't just do your own thing during the round. It's much better for everyone to be on the same page, even if it's the wrong page, than for everyone to do whatever they feel like.

 

This game is a cake walk compared to studying Frame Data in Street Fighter. It's not even remotely close in complexity. You can't drop a cast in this game like you can drop a combo.

 

This is correct. Swtor is very easy compared to most other competitive online games, though I imagine it's comparable to other mmos.

 

And the game's Solo Rating is so up to chance and randomness that the idea that one player can be the constant and as a result is the cause of all failures is such poor logic. By that same thinking every win was because of me as well? It's all about team cohesion. And Solo Rating doesn't reflect an individuals ability accurate enough.

 

This is just nonsense and not at all what I said. I've already explained it, but I can do so again. In solo ranked, the outcome of many games is out of your control. Sometimes you get throwers or leavers, sometimes someone just makes a bad mistake. Sometimes you're heavily outcomped, etc. So yes, even the best players in the game lose games for those reasons, and it has nothing to do with their skill.

 

These outside factors even out over time, as they work against you sometimes and for you other times. You are the remaining constant, meaning once you remove all those matches where you can't affect the outcome, you are left with the ones in which you can affect the outcome. Those are the matches where good players play well and win, and how they get reliably high elos season after season. It's why the good players get top 3s and golds season after season. If it was truly as random as you say it is, that wouldn't be possible.

 

Your complaints are common for someone who thinks they're much better than they are, but in reality still has a long way to go to improve. There's no shame in not being a gold caliber player, especially only 2 months in. You should just accept it and work to improve rather than blaming the system.

 

There are plenty of 1v1 games, For Honor off the top of my head. If the games duels aren't enjoyable, that should tell you about the games current state. It can be made fun.

 

I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it's very different, and many people who enjoy 4v4 arenas do not enjoy 1v1s. One cannot replace the other because the audience is not the same.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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Some degree of adaptability is good, but I promise you this mindset is losing you games. You've played ranked for two months and already think you know better than the experienced players calling strats for you. That's a good recipe for losing games that you should be winning. If you really think that someone is making a bad call, you should point that out to them in chat before the round starts, don't just do your own thing during the round. It's much better for everyone to be on the same page, even if it's the wrong page, than for everyone to do whatever they feel like.

 

 

 

This is correct. Swtor is very easy compared to most other competitive online games, though I imagine it's comparable to other mmos.

 

 

 

This is just nonsense and not at all what I said. I've already explained it, but I can do so again. In solo ranked, the outcome of many games is out of your control. Sometimes you get throwers or leavers, sometimes someone just makes a bad mistake. Sometimes you're heavily outcomped, etc. So yes, even the best players in the game lose games for those reasons, and it has nothing to do with their skill.

 

These outside factors even out over time, as they work against you sometimes and for you other times. You are the remaining constant, meaning once you remove all those matches where you can't affect the outcome, you are left with the ones in which you can affect the outcome. Those are the matches where good players play well and win, and how they get reliably high elos season after season. It's why the good players get top 3s and golds season after season. If it was truly as random as you say it is, that wouldn't be possible.

 

Your complaints are common for someone who thinks they're much better than they are, but in reality still has a long way to go to improve. There's no shame in not being a gold caliber player, especially only 2 months in. You should just accept it and work to improve rather than blaming the system.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it's very different, and many people who enjoy 4v4 arenas do not enjoy 1v1s. One cannot replace the other because the audience is not the same.

 

You've again said nothing of the mechanics or offered a defense of the current systems, even so far as agreeing that there are problems with the accuracy of the system by agreeing with some of my points. I also only mentioned 1 of my characters, so your sample is wrong to begin with I have 7 ranked characters, which isn't much, all with varying ratings and ratios, some better than others. All you've said is that it averages out over, what? 100 or 200 games? Whats the number?

 

The bigger question is, who cares? The question is is it fun? I say no, 4v4's that are a coin toss are not fun to deal with, and over time players quit, hence why our population is so low. Other games enable players to win no matter how many other opponents there are. You can't do a quint kill in this like you can in an FPS or TPS or even some Hybrid melee games like For Honor, Chivalry, or Mordhau. As much as I hate Mordhau, I will give that you can do a lot for yourself and rely on no one else. There is no reasons MMO's need to be stuck in this archaic design of gameplay. I sit in queue and just hope the only "constant" I have to worry about is myself and not some troll. The fact that everyone deals with it shows the system doesn't make it fun for people. It's fun vampirism.

 

If you're just going to throw conjecture and vapid insults at me, take your own advice and move on. I'm waiting for an argument with some reason beyond, it just averages out. Tons of good players have toons stuck in bad ratings due to a string of bad losses. They just roll a toon. Most people won't do that and they shouldn't have to.

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You've again said nothing of the mechanics or offered a defense of the current systems, even so far as agreeing that there are problems with the accuracy of the system by agreeing with some of my points. I also only mentioned 1 of my characters, so your sample is wrong to begin with I have 7 ranked characters, which isn't much, all with varying ratings and ratios, some better than others. All you've said is that it averages out over, what? 100 or 200 games? Whats the number?

 

Good players get higher elo than bad players. And they do it season after season. That fact alone proves that the system works. I also explained to you exactly why that is the case. Go read my previous posts again if you're having trouble comprehending them.

 

And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.

 

The bigger question is, who cares? The question is is it fun? I say no,

 

If it's not fun for you, then don't play it... The fact that you personally don't find it fun has nothing whatsoever to do with its actual quality.

 

4v4's that are a coin toss are not fun to deal with

 

Only a small percentage of solo ranked games are actually a coin toss. You are still apparently unable to accept that you have a lot of room to improve and a much bigger capacity to impact games than you think.

 

Other games enable players to win no matter how many other opponents there are. You can't do a quint kill in this like you can in an FPS or TPS or even some Hybrid melee games like For Honor, Chivalry, or Mordhau. As much as I hate Mordhau, I will give that you can do a lot for yourself and rely on no one else. There is no reasons MMO's need to be stuck in this archaic design of gameplay. I sit in queue and just hope the only "constant" I have to worry about is myself and not some troll. The fact that everyone deals with it shows the system doesn't make it fun for people. It's fun vampirism.

 

Obviously there are games that require a lot more skill, so you can have a more consistent impact, but there are still limits to that in any team game. There are also leavers and trolls in every game. And in some cases it's much more punishing. When you get a leaver in CS:GO for example, you can be left in a 4v5 for a 40 minute match. At least in swtor it'll be over in a matter of minutes.

 

Learning to take losses that are out of your control is an important part of the game, any competitive game really. Maybe solo ranked just isn't for you, but don't blame the game mode for that.

 

Tons of good players have toons stuck in bad ratings due to a string of bad losses. They just roll a toon. Most people won't do that and they shouldn't have to.

 

That is not true lol. There are no "good" players that get "stuck" in bad ratings and have to reroll toons to get lucky placements. That is what bad players do when they attempt to get good ratings.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.

 

by the time a player reaches 50 wins, his rating will tell his quality. if he's good, he'll certainly be silver by that time. and if he isn't bronze, then he's a straight carry.

 

you don't have to play a fotm spec for this either. you just have to play something that isn't entirely dead (like trying to go hatred...or maybe tanking with something other than jugg?).

 

and 50 wins is generous. it generally becomes apparent before that. but let's just assume you got buried in your first 10 or are actually very good but new to yolo so it took you 20ish games to get your feet under you.

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by the time a player reaches 50 wins, his rating will tell his quality. if he's good, he'll certainly be silver by that time. and if he isn't bronze, then he's a straight carry.

 

you don't have to play a fotm spec for this either. you just have to play something that isn't entirely dead (like trying to go hatred...or maybe tanking with something other than jugg?).

 

and 50 wins is generous. it generally becomes apparent before that. but let's just assume you got buried in your first 10 or are actually very good but new to yolo so it took you 20ish games to get your feet under you.

 

To a degree, yes. I would agree that if you get to 50 wins and you're about 1100, you're probably not very good. But if you're at 50 wins and at 1300, that doesn't necessarily mean that's as high as you're going to go.

 

It took me about 100 wins to get to gold on both my sorc and my sage. But better players than me got to gold in about 50 wins. Let's say you're a player that's just barely silver skill-wise, It might take you 100 wins to get there, but it only takes a gold player 20 wins. It's all relative.

 

And I agree that virtually every class is capable, but it is clearly quicker/easier on the stronger classes, so that matters too.

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yeah. i specifically avoided mentioning gold. for me, things got difficult around 1425+. losses seemed to hurt more and I needed to go 3:1 to climb rather than 2:1. and in the high 1400s, that was particularly true.

 

but let's be honest here, if you think you're "good," then you can get the bottom end of silver after 50 wins (edit: wrote games by accident). if you're blaming a poor rating on "poor game design," you're just making excuses. everyone runs into the same issues.

 

bear in mind, the person you're arguing with here authored these gems...

 

PTs and Juggs are the most toxic classes atm. they're played by sweaty nerds who know the games desync issues are what saves them. Most of the time they're just *********** with targeting.

 

The most toxic players play PT's.

 

I was a mando that had 100% and went down to 20% with a burst. Are you stupid or something?

 

That is not balanced at all. They spam abilities, dcds, and immunities and have a giant window to do pure DPS specc level amounts of damage? Are you dumb or something Bioware?

 

Not to mention the atrocious netcode and latency, so when you concuss charge them away, suddenly they spawn right beside you, even after they've already used their jet charge.

 

The game's pvp is absolute trash and the game designers should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Buy Street Fighter 5 and play a real PVP game. That's the only one that matters.

all those PT immunities i guess? and those juggs just killing it in yolo.

 

note the dude's playing a mando and complaining about other classes dcds and immunities. heh

 

I agree. Game is not big or popular enough to make such stringent requirements for placement in PvP.

 

It's not Street Fighter, SWTOR will never be a compelling competitive scene. Just open it up and take it easy.

 

On wintrading, the issue will always exist. With or without ELO loss.

agreeing that there should be no ELO penalty for losses. :rolleyes:

Edited by CheesyEZ
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yeah. i specifically avoided mentioning gold. for me, things got difficult around 1425+. losses seemed to hurt more and I needed to go 3:1 to climb rather than 2:1. and in the high 1400s, that was particularly true.

 

but let's be honest here, if you think you're "good," then you can get the bottom end of silver after 50 wins (edit: wrote games by accident). if you're blaming a poor rating on "poor game design," you're just making excuses. everyone runs into the same issues.

 

bear in mind, the person you're arguing with here authored these gems...

 

all those PT immunities i guess? and those juggs just killing it in yolo.

 

note the dude's playing a mando and complaining about other classes dcds and immunities. heh

 

 

agreeing that there should be no ELO penalty for losses. :rolleyes:

 

You're going through my history to do what? Attack me personally again? Those are my opinions and you have no argument against it other than conjecture.

 

You're trolling the thread now, not even remotely attempting to discuss the issue with ranked. The most obvious piece of proof is the lack of players. You cannot argue that this game has a lack of interest, especially in it's PVP and yet you people deny is constantly. You are the exact reason why it won't progress or improve.

 

Also, since "reading comprehension" is in question, you obviously didn't get the part where I said ELO loss should come with Rating Decay and that the systems should be balanced out, including individual ratings that even would apply to 1v1, a complete test of personal play. That post was to mention specifically your game is not the same as other ranked games and no one should take it seriously. So either ease off the serious ranked systems, or introduce better rating.

 

I have seen countless times players run in place and suddenly appear somewhere else, all while the system message spams "You are too far from the Target" when on screen they are right beside me. Those few seconds are massive DPS losses and more time for their DCDS to recharge. Those micro seconds are what makes games competitive. You don't know what you're talking about in the slightest if you think latency does not play a key role in how the game is perceived by two different players.

 

By the way, don't even try to compare your Ranked scene with any other game. Especially Street Fighter. There's a reason why EVO exists and nothing does for SWTOR. Your scene is nothing.

Edited by Karimloo
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Good players get higher elo than bad players. And they do it season after season. That fact alone proves that the system works. I also explained to you exactly why that is the case. Go read my previous posts again if you're having trouble comprehending them.

 

And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.

 

If it's not fun for you, then don't play it... The fact that you personally don't find it fun has nothing whatsoever to do with its actual quality.

 

Only a small percentage of solo ranked games are actually a coin toss. You are still apparently unable to accept that you have a lot of room to improve and a much bigger capacity to impact games than you think.

 

Obviously there are games that require a lot more skill, so you can have a more consistent impact, but there are still limits to that in any team game. There are also leavers and trolls in every game. And in some cases it's much more punishing. When you get a leaver in CS:GO for example, you can be left in a 4v5 for a 40 minute match. At least in swtor it'll be over in a matter of minutes.

 

Learning to take losses that are out of your control is an important part of the game, any competitive game really. Maybe solo ranked just isn't for you, but don't blame the game mode for that.

 

 

 

That is not true lol. There are no "good" players that get "stuck" in bad ratings and have to reroll toons to get lucky placements. That is what bad players do when they attempt to get good ratings.

 

So more insults, from calling out my reading comprehension, to continuous conjecture of my ability in the game. You have no argument. Continue to throw random numbers and random placements. You're trolling the thread with no factual information and have nothing to contribute but that you like the broken state of the game because it caters to a small minority of people. It is very true that players from all skill levels roll multiple toons and have throwaways in times of bad sets of matches.

 

You're apart of what makes this game so toxic and terrible and why you won't see Ranked grow in number.

 

"If it's not fun don't play it"

 

Guess what. The majority of people don't. Your game is NOT fun. Sorry, it's just a fact.

 

Your only arguments in this thread have been that -

1- I am bad, suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect. You have no evidence. The constant berating of my own play seems like projection on your part.

 

Not many players know to negate an IO Sticky Grenade burst with Scamper. Not many players read tooltips to understand White Damage vs Yellow Damage, and what DCD's protect against what. Not many players realize Obfuscate/Pacifies power, especially with utilities, etc.

 

And beyond the mechanics, reading the player themselves is also important. I know certain players have certain habits and I exploit them to use DCD's exactly when I want them to. And I have come to realize when other players have come to have an expectation of my style of play. This is what happens in Street Fighter in the first few rounds, where players don't employ all strategies until they can read their opponents, then adapt accordingly.

 

I am an adaptive player, I learn and think about each loss, and each one I ask what I was doing, what my team was doing, and what the enemy team was doing. That's what makes me a good player. You even admit there are moments beyond our control. This is not my problem. I can handle when players out play me, I can even handle when a player quits, sometimes peoples power goes out. I called into question the game's rating, the games MM, the games mechanics that handle these situations into question. And you have done nothing but Ad hominem attacks with no basis or ground to stand on.

 

The system as current is draconian. It punishes everything, and rewards everything. Those who are carried also gain from doing nothing. Those who do well yet lose, lose everything. You understand that if I was being carried that this proposed system would reward me less correct? I would gain little for being carried, and lose more for my obvious losses.

 

The system in front of me is frustrating and fun vampirism, it takes from one and gives to another. That is the worst way to design a team based arena game where even 1 death in a match can result in a /stuck of the entire team. This isn't CSGO, don't try to compare them. CSGO enables 1v5 to happen and it happens quite frequently. ELO Loss in CSGO makes greater sense than it does here.

 

2- The Rating averages itself out. You provide no number, no stat, no example, nothing at all to substantiate this claim at all. In fact you agree that the number could be vastly different between players. This random chance is not a good measure of accurate skill placement. You agreed that the system could improve but provide no suggestion as how. You then default to your argument that I must be at fault since the system works even though that contradicts what you said.

 

A system that demands that many games that is plagued with win-traders, throwers, and trolls, is not a system people will stick by. They will never accurately mold that image of themselves because they won't stay. The game is not fun or rewarding enough for players to try.

 

But apparently, the system "Just works".

Edited by Karimloo
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Here's a great example of the two kinds of users on SWTOR who play Ranked PVP.

 

From condescension, conjecture, snide insults, and no actual arguments.

 

You two are perfect examples of why Ranked is in such a bad state. CheesyEZ can't even stomach talking to me directly, and has to go through JediMasterAlex to insult me.

 

These two perfectly prove my point of the stubborn and toxic players that infect PVP. You see your numbers dwindling and not growing and you can't even be bothered to honestly discuss why.

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you like the broken state of the game because it caters to a small minority of people.

 

Who does it cater to and how? Do tell.

 

You're apart of what makes this game so toxic and terrible and why you won't see Ranked grow in number.

 

If you knew anything about me or my history regarding ranked toxicity, especially vote kick, you'd know how laughable this take is lol.

 

But on a similar note, it's posts like yours that create the impression that the forums are a laughing stock, and why hardly any ranked players post here. It's just exhausting.

 

"If it's not fun don't play it"

 

No, if you don't find it fun, don't play it. Your opinion is not a fact lol.

 

Your only arguments in this thread have been that -

1- I am bad, suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect. You have no evidence. The constant berating of my own play seems like projection on your part.

 

My evidence is the content of your posts. And you even stated your record in ranked. I had more than enough evidence to draw pretty firm conclusions.

 

I am an adaptive player, I learn and think about each loss, and each one I ask what I was doing, what my team was doing, and what the enemy team was doing. That's what makes me a good player. You even admit there are moments beyond our control. This is not my problem. I can handle when players out play me, I can even handle when a player quits, sometimes peoples power goes out. I called into question the game's rating, the games MM, the games mechanics that handle these situations into question. And you have done nothing but Ad hominem attacks with no basis or ground to stand on.

 

Is this a copy pasta or am I being punked?

 

If you're such a good player, why are you 20-31? And you ask where my evidence comes from... lol

 

2- The Rating averages itself out. You provide no number, no stat, no example, nothing at all to substantiate this claim at all. In fact you agree that the number could be vastly different between players. This random chance is not a good measure of accurate skill placement. You agreed that the system could improve but provide no suggestion as how. You then default to your argument that I must be at fault since the system works even though that contradicts what you said.

 

It's not the rating that averages out...it's all the factors out of your control that average out over enough games. You can't credibly claim that you've suffered more from leavers, etc than someone who is much higher elo than you, assuming you've both played a decent number of games. This isn't a hard concept.

 

A system that demands that many games that is plagued with win-traders, throwers, and trolls, is not a system people will stick by. They will never accurately mold that image of themselves because they won't stay. The game is not fun or rewarding enough for players to try.

 

Just admit you're not having fun in ranked because you're losing and you can't handle losses. We'll even forgive you for making this thread.

 

But apparently, the system "Just works".

 

It does work. You log in, queue up, and play the game. You either enjoy ranked arenas or you don't. That's fine, everyone has preferences. But you can't pretend that your feelings translate into anything remotely objective regarding ranked. Ranked is mostly fine, you need to look in the mirror.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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SR with rating should not exist. SR should be a ground for players to train and enter competitive PvP ie. TR.

Rating should exist only in TR and possibly be also guild base. I would do it that once you switch guild your rating gets reset to 900. (you lose 25% and if you do it again -25% again so it is 600)

 

But with what we have in Swtor it exists and since eight years. The real problem we have in it is scaling.

I did some SR couple weeks ago, and after three games I kept on getting a team of gold/diamond minus -1 player.

Meanwhile my team had only 1 gold player, a bronze and the other two me included around 1k.

 

SR has been broken since start and its only fixes was to do the faction mix and remove Vote-Kick.

What was that end of S2.

I really cant remember right now.

Swtor needs to learn from WoW here, and rated SR needs to go, and may be from there onwards PvP starts healing in the game. As it happened in WoW.

Too much **** going on in an SR since eight plus years to really take it seriously.

Edited by limenutpen
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Solo ranked, your rating is based on your 3 other team mates and losing or winning that match.

 

What?

How is that solo ranked or solo rating?

You know what Solo Ranked in Street Fighter IV and V meant? It meant SOLO. AS IN 1 V 1. Because that's how Solo Ranked truly works. Testing two players skills individually.

 

What we have is pure team ranked. You have either Premade Team Ranked or Random Team Ranked.

 

Why isn't it based on individual performance?

Sub 1k dps? Unranked. Sub 2.5k dps? Bronze. 5k dps in a match? Silver. 7k? Gold - Top 3.

 

Calculate total HPS, total DPS, Final blows, Survival, decorations, etc.

 

Losing a match isn't an indicator of your own personal skill. It's an indication of your cohesion with your three other mates. Since you can't coordinate since we have no Voice chat, it's difficult to make callouts quickly during a fight. In Gears of War 5 and other FPS/TPS games, VC is necessary in Ranked Matches. Why can console games have Voice Chat but not MMO's??

 

Tonight, I lost a match because someone left the game mid match to PICK UP HIS UBER DELIVERY ORDER.

Why am I losing ELO? We won a 3v4 on Round 1, the guy died rather fast but at least we could focus harder on the target. Round 2 the guy left so we were down our DPS, and caught 1 and reset, (Full stealth team), and the composition wasn't in our favour, up against, Sage, Merc, Sin. We lost because we just can't really do anything against good players. We didn't have the sustain and as all Melee against 2 Ranged and 1 Melee, it's already their advantage.

 

Then I lost 10 more in a row.

I tanked -200 ELO on this Operative toon and now it's done. Each match was the perfect throw. One guy who stucked start of Round 2 and cussed out the team, a PT that went down within 10 seconds of match start, a Sin that queued without his Set bonus or Two Cloak Tactical, a Sin that didn't chase a 10% Mara, and more than 1 Merc that complained they died through Kolto.

 

Each match I did what I could, I off-healed, I caught kills, I CC'd with Flash and Seismics, I swapped based on Guard/HP, I pulled over 400k each match, going into 1.8 Million on one that I lost as well. For me, DPS doesn't truly matter unless you're killing targets, so dumb parsing numbers means nothing unless you secure a kill.

 

So now I'm sitting in Unranked with 20 wins and 31 losses. All within 2 hours. After my 11 streak loss, I got in a team with a Sniper I was familiar with, a good Merc, and a good Sin. We won.

 

Good synergy, good target calls, good swaps, good CC's, the other team however had 2 good players, 1 decent player, and 1 absolute troll who cost me most than 5 matches, a Sin who sat as the last one standing in Stealth until Acid rolled out.

 

Another Operative I knew sitting in 1700+ lost a bunch of rating and logged out because of the nonsense teams we were stacked on.

 

So why is my Rating subject to the people I queue with? It would make sense in Granked, but in Solo Ranked, the rating system is completely wrong in how it's rating players.

 

In fact, I'm sure it's been discussed before, but doesn't Solo Ranked make more sense to be 1v1? The issue would be that Operatives would be too powerful, but with a few balance changes I think it would work.

 

For example, Operatives can only stay in stealth for about 6 seconds same as Mara's. IDK, something to make Solo Ranked more about what you can do personally instead of dreading a bad composition, or having to queue certain times to avoid certain players.

 

P.S. I also believe we need Rating Decay. The more time your toon is out of the game, the most Rating you lose. You can't just wintrade your way to the top and expect to stay there.

 

That could be the way the Rating is removed over time if you're playing sub optimally in multiple matches, you gain little, but the decay averages you out. Improvement of your play will make decay hurt less over time. But you still would need to be active on that toon. That or just introduce 1V1s.

 

Solo ranked has a very primitive design and it requires you to be able to carry bad players or to win games that look unwinnable , at least as many as possible.

 

If you can't do this , you won't be able to climb. You have no control over the bad players or the matchmaking with class stacking . You also have to win most of your toss up games, games which are really close .

 

Let's be honest. This game won't change ever it's solo ranked mechanisms . Every thread about this is pointless and it will just create pages of personal insults . \

 

Of course there could be some improvements , but there won't be many because this game's income isn't generated by ranked and it's players.

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SR exists because players (myself included) begged and pleaded for it. Ironically, we begged and pleaded for an 8v8 solo queue. See what happens when BW "listens" to the masses? They give you what you ask for in the way the Devil grants wishes.

 

SR is easier than TR. There are a few reasons SR is more popular than TR, but at the end of the day, there is one glaring reason: it's easier than TR. it's much easier for non-top tier players to get rating (i.e., me). and top tier players can still rise to the top.

 

Lastly, all of this whining about ratings in SR is particularly comical because as far back as s11, BW made it so that players could get ALL of the ranked rewards simply by playing a high volume of matches. in other words, a poor rating doesn't prevent a person from getting the sexy mount or armor set. he just has to queue more frequently than players who are better than him. the only rewards tied to ratings are the flairs, which literally signify a rating tier. :rolleyes:

 

imo, there are only two areas of improvement for SR:

  1. balance changes, and...
  2. matchmaking.

 

balance is kind of impossible in SR, what with the various different role comps that it will pop. but even so, the time frames that each class/spec remains "meta" and vice versa is frustrating.

 

matchmaking...i mean...eesh. class stacking. replacing back fill with the wrong role.... a lot of this can be solved by not popping a map until all 8 players have accepted the pop. but the class stacking. I know there are ratings to consider when composing classes, but the class stacking in the matchmaking has always been atrocious. like put any one of the 3 merc dps on the other team. or the 3 op dps. or the 3 sin dps. just so many matches in which 2 and 3 of a kind are on the same team while none on the other. you'd think these are rudimentary issues to resolve but...iunno.

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I don't think when we had 8vs8 someone really asked for SR.

 

8vs8 was what MMO gaming is all about, team work, fun and some what frustrating.

Also 8vs8 generated community work.

 

We had genuine competition with it, at least on TOFN. But by what I read even on the other servers it was more or less the same. I miss 8vs8 not little.

 

Comparing the current Ranked class to what was 8 is like comparing candy to going eating in a five star restaurant with real food. We have just the candy in BW.

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Who does it cater to and how? Do tell.

 

It does work. You log in, queue up, and play the game. You either enjoy ranked arenas or you don't. That's fine, everyone has preferences. But you can't pretend that your feelings translate into anything remotely objective regarding ranked. Ranked is mostly fine, you need to look in the mirror.

 

As virtually all of the dedicated pvp crowd has shifted to Discord/Twitch from these forums over the past couple years, the audience here has gotten more and more niche (and not in a good way). I'm honestly amazed at your patience in engaging with some of the folks here, many of whom are playing pazaak without a full deck of cards.

Edited by EnzoForMe
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