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Council Burn NiM, question for all raiders


csilvajonas's Avatar


csilvajonas
10.08.2021 , 10:37 AM | #1
This is a question for all NiM raiders. I play on Darth Malgus server and ever since i started raiding people say "no reflects or aoe/dot spread". Thing is, i asked some people from other servers and they were surprised that people even say that, cause there is nothing on the buff they get that is related to those abilities. In fact, on my first kill, my group used reflects and dot spread as soon as burn started, was a smooth kill. So why people think this is a thing? I did have some pulls where they seemed to have a soft enrage and dtps was a bit too high, but idk what happened. I did my research and they only do more dmg based on how many stacks they have and the number of stacks increases based on time. But nothing related to aoe dmg, reflect or dot spread. Where is this myth coming from?

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Opiklo
10.08.2021 , 02:39 PM | #2
people are stupid and immune to facts. there are a lot of myths concerning bosses. someone said it, people repeat it.
its like religion.
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
10.08.2021 , 03:33 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by csilvajonas View Post
So why people think this is a thing?
ppl love to speculate, someone said it at some point and then it becomes something they repeat forever, had a similar thing happen in a raiding group I was in for queen hm on star forge. raid leader claimed that aoe in the last burn phase would reflect damage to the group and was adamant about it even when proven otherwise from starparse combat logs and being unable to prove it themselves. its the same in council, there is undoubtedly big aoe damage going out and with players not using their defensive cooldowns or burning down a single boss its a wipe on 16m modes, so raid leaders try to explain the wipe and come up with some lie/excuse since they don't know better or heard it from someone else

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HamadKyron
10.08.2021 , 06:33 PM | #4
In terms of the actual mechanic, they're wrong obviously, you can hit all of them at the same time and be fine. In practice though, you want to kill each Dread Master as fast as possible to stop the damage going out from being overwhelming. So really you don't want to be using any frivolous AoEs (a DoT spread is fine right as the first one is dying, but other than that no) because it'll keep them all alive longer than they have to be, which means that you have a larger chance of getting overwhelmed and wiping before you kill any of them.

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AlexIonutPlay
10.17.2021 , 03:56 PM | #5
If you reflect or aoe, you get teleported back in phase one.
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MokiDono
10.21.2021 , 03:24 PM | #6
Well technically, if you push\kill Calphayus first during the burnphase, he one shots the raid. But since he has the highest HP during the transition to burn, no real threat there to push him first via reflects and dotspreads.
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lorddjole's Avatar


lorddjole
10.22.2021 , 04:20 AM | #7
Reflects and AOEs are fine If people use dcds and rotate them and if healing is on point. However if Multiple people reflect at same time those without reflect or strong dcd might die.
Any attack on the bosses in burn phase will cause reflect towards whole grp so sometimes if healing is low and if people are new its safer to not AOE or reflect and just single target boss by boss. If u reflect at start of phase if u spread dots and use strong dcds it will be fine cus Bosses will die FASTER due to more dmg done to them by reflects, but it also requires solid aoe heals, which should be granted you have given u are doing nim raid
I have seen people die on council burn cus they didn't use any dcd at start of burn and went all out on all bosses.
If you Push them carefully and they are lowish as they can be you are more then fine and they will die pretty fast.

I also sometimes ask people not to reflect or AOE but mostly on VM if raiders are new and if healer is new . Its just less of a hassle and u go from boss to boss for safe kill. Reflects and AOEs are something more experienced NIM raiders should be able to do without issue.

You can also easily kill bosses without any reflect or AOE or dot spread as well . Either of 2 ways work fine imo.
As a raid lead i opt for no reflects or aoes till one or 2 bosses are down if grps are new and they dont know their dcds or classes at higher level. Just makes kill safer at least imo .
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Sounders_Fan's Avatar


Sounders_Fan
10.22.2021 , 12:57 PM | #8
everyone seems to be assuming OP is referring to Dread Council.

how about the infernal council in EV? at launch that was a group of 1v1 fights and you could wipe the group if your AOE hit council members other than your own. Now, I haven't raided since temple of sacrifice maybe the EV fight has changed in the years since I have completed it on any regular basis

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mike_carton
10.22.2021 , 05:02 PM | #9
That EV fight mechanic has stayed the same. But there is no NiM EV now, so OP could not be referring to that.
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csilvajonas's Avatar


csilvajonas
10.23.2021 , 02:31 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by lorddjole View Post
Reflects and AOEs are fine If people use dcds and rotate them and if healing is on point. However if Multiple people reflect at same time those without reflect or strong dcd might die.
Any attack on the bosses in burn phase will cause reflect towards whole grp so sometimes if healing is low and if people are new its safer to not AOE or reflect and just single target boss by boss. If u reflect at start of phase if u spread dots and use strong dcds it will be fine cus Bosses will die FASTER due to more dmg done to them by reflects, but it also requires solid aoe heals, which should be granted you have given u are doing nim raid
I have seen people die on council burn cus they didn't use any dcd at start of burn and went all out on all bosses.
If you Push them carefully and they are lowish as they can be you are more then fine and they will die pretty fast.

I also sometimes ask people not to reflect or AOE but mostly on VM if raiders are new and if healer is new . Its just less of a hassle and u go from boss to boss for safe kill. Reflects and AOEs are something more experienced NIM raiders should be able to do without issue.

You can also easily kill bosses without any reflect or AOE or dot spread as well . Either of 2 ways work fine imo.
As a raid lead i opt for no reflects or aoes till one or 2 bosses are down if grps are new and they dont know their dcds or classes at higher level. Just makes kill safer at least imo .
This is why i started the thread, this myth is all over Darth Malgus, there is no such thing like boss reflecting dmg back to raid group, it's either low dps or low heals the reason people wipe on council burn. A guy even recorded a wipe insisting it was due to reflects, the reason was actually one dps was on the wrong boss and they had 4 dread masters alive for too long. I talked about this with Jaydenz, Ion, you can see Cola posted here on this thread. All top raiders in game know there is no such thing as using reflects on council burn = bad. Another thing that increases dtps is having one member down before burn, the dread masters are doing 10 hits/second or something like this (you can check combat logs), but they rotate their hits, so each DM can hit you twice/second. It's a roulette, one member down will make the remaining people take more hits/second. 10/8 < 10/7. This is how that burn works:
When it starts, each dread master has 1 stack of "power of the masters". They get one more stack each 2 seconds or so. Each stack increases dmg they're doing by a certain %. Taking too long to kill one of them is what wipe groups (with reflects Bestia is down when she gets 3 or 4 stacks if dps is good). When Bestia dies it is 25% less dtps, the stacks are giving them 3% more dmg/stack. But nothing on the fight is coded to make them reflect dmg back to group or increase dtps on raid group if they take more dmg.