The thing is though many of these defensive abilities were not always in the game, they were introduced at some point and before that players had to make things work without them and it worked just as well.

A lot of these def CDs currently are used to avoid certain (PvE) mechanics completely, with 7.0 more often we will have to deal with this or that again, meaning going back to older tactics used before said def CDs were available or finding new tactics to deal with the mechanics without them.

Can't speak for PvP since I don't play that but as an example for PvE just take Asation second boss, Ciphas' Doom in NIM. The void mechanic initially was pretty certain intended to be played until the end, requiring the raid to be aware of their positioning all the time, but since so many def CDs by now allow almost all classes to simply avoid having to pick up the green pools in P2, players changed tactics to have a certain class/spec setup and just get 12 green pools on the field in order to not having to deal with the red version in the last phase. That wouldn't have been possible before and yet people were able to kill the boss.

Another example is the force speed def from 5.0 assassin, of course that was pretty strong, yet it had such a short cool-down that it was often a 'just use it on CD' ability, depending on where you were, you could use only force speed and not bother much with the other CDs at all. With 6.0 it was taken away and assassin still could tank everything there is, they just had to adapt and change how they used their def CDs for best effect again.

People don't just drop dead because they might not have this or that any longer, they just have to play a different tactic and be more careful about what they do when and where they stand and walk.That's not a bad thing at all.

That may be true for utility skills, but it's not defensives. When you remove defensives, it becomes harder to survive. With more limited survival tools you'll have to be more careful when to use them, and you can afford less overall damage.

See from where I'm standing, the defensives as they are on live are not exactly faceroll use to begin with. Some of this has to do with nonstandard ways people play the game, which BW I guess is either unaware of or doesn't care. For example, people who solo vet FPs. Or something I do: running heroics with companion on DPS. Since that's what I'm personally most familiar with, I'll talk about it a bit: in my case, the DCDs are about right for pulling off what I do. If I flub them or how I handle a group of mobs in general, I can easily die and to keep moving at a pace that justifies doing it over companion on heals, I can't just wait for DCDs to come off cooldown, that would undermine part of the point of doing it for me. So I have to "pick my battles" on when and where I use my DCDs most effectively for each encounter, as I definitely won't have them all each time. Removing or nerfing them enough may make that kind of gameplay tough enough as to not be worth it, i.e. to the point I'm back in faceroll heal companion land, where the majority of the time, DCDs will never even matter, which sounds a lot like a downgrade in skill ceiling to me.

I'm not sure what way of playing you have in mind: I'm guessing either raids or PvP? What is your experience with DCDs like?

Your opinion stays valid if you post your operations achievements progression. You can't possibly talk about bosses being easy without clearing them first.

100% Ops, 8x Gold in S13 and S14 combined.

Also I don't mean to devalue any PvE achievments made by you and your team, it still takes great skill in killing Izax etc. however the more times you kill it the less each kill matters. So I am very obviously not talking from everyones PoV, all I did was make an example. Another to prove my point would just be brontes during kephess phase, before tacticals as sin tank you would've to chose which orb to take and which to leave on dps, since two cloaks exist this decision is devalued a lot.

Now we take this one step further and just say that camoshroud wouldn't be a thing so you only have 1 shroud. Instead of taking 1 Orb like you used all of a sudden you may wish to take two orbs & a boss channel at the same time.

While in all cases it should not matter, you should not wipe there even if your tank takes 0 Orbs.

Then again, DPS in PvE snowballs a lot with group skill - experienced DPS and Tanks do more and take less damage than they do in progression which in return allows healers to do even more DPS and so on, this of course makes any DPS check not-existend but that is absolutly fine since if it would be hard for even the Elite NiM Raiders how would you ever beat the boss in progression (within a reasonable timeframe) for content this old.

As a final thought, 6.0 handed everything to everyone for free. Credits, PvE-Prestige to a certain degree, Gear etc. you were still limited by your stats, just like you are in 7.0. You are still limited in the classes / comps you can do for certain bosses and teamranked. Try to not expect everything for free, there are things that get their value only from not everyone being able to get it, this is exactly why PvP is infact harder and more challenging then PvE.

I'm raiding with a small guild. We are doing mostly HC (not all) and some very few NiM. Our Dds, healers & tanks doing well. Only one or two of our players play their classes top tier. In 6.0 we were able to progressing raids – slowly. We had a lot of fun and it was challenging even if some achivemtes stayed out of range. We knew this and it was no problem.

7.0 will be gamebreaking for my guild. With the loss of DCDs, overall nerfs, non-modable gear etc. this will be a huge setback and most players will simply stop to play. We will not go back to old SM Raids and we will not progressing raids we've already done again, just because we get nerfed into oblivion. So our guild will just dissapear. It has nothing to do with „expect everything for free“.

Yeah. Kind of like how tanks and healers can also do damage, not just DPS.

Ah yes, tanks do damage... all, 4k dps compared to... 20+k from the dps. Healers? Uh, 2k if they REALLY keep those dots up. Tank damage/healer damage helps, but it is not meant to be a replacement. DPS DcDs have basically become a replacement for a tank in WAY too much content.

Yes they are making you pick between reflect and blade blitz, however this is not a bad change.

 

For PvE: The content is too easy, the classes are too easy - taking away options to handle with situations does not make a class easier. Taking away options makes you use the ones you have to better extend thus increasing the skill you need to beat hard bosses, matter of fact and the truth is that there is not a single actually hard boss in this game at this very moment. Furthermore they do not take away anything, you can still have both dcds, just not at the same time. Nothing stops you from changing during an Operation, you can take what you want for a boss - just like utilities just that it actually matters now.

 

For PvP reading your oponents will reward you more than it does now since as skilled player you should know what the choices are for other classes and remember them, so if I see you use reflect I know that you cannot possibly have maddash root break, this could be huge for tank games in ranked and will rewards the player with more awareness and skill - as it should.

 

As a final thought, 6.0 handed everything to everyone for free. Credits, PvE-Prestige to a certain degree, Gear etc. you were still limited by your stats, just like you are in 7.0. You are still limited in the classes / comps you can do for certain bosses and teamranked. Try to not expect everything for free, there are things that get their value only from not everyone being able to get it, this is exactly why PvP is infact harder and more challenging then PvE.

Could you be more condescending in your reply? You assume much about me and your accusations of what, how, and why you believe you can stuff me in to your world view of how you believe a person place. I'm sorry, but I don't fit your woke vision of things.

As a tank main, I use every ability I have, including Blade Blitz to mitigate any movement impairing effects affecting me. I use all DCDs effectively. To that point, I just completed H4 Aurora Cannon on my Juggernaut after a long time and did so without fail and killed the end boss. My comp set to heals only.

However, based on your post I get the impression that you don't care because I don't fit your narrative. I guess this is what I get for asking a important question only to get an trolling demeaning answer from some keyboard warrior.

Ah yes, tanks do damage... all, 4k dps compared to... 20+k from the dps. Healers? Uh, 2k if they REALLY keep those dots up. Tank damage/healer damage helps, but it is not meant to be a replacement. DPS DcDs have basically become a replacement for a tank in WAY too much content.

One could surmise that BW is wanting to do away with or lessen the dependence on the Triad as other games like ESO did. I question things of this nature when I see DPS have more than one DcDs. Especially now that BW is forcing tanks to choose between defensive abilities they use.

Hello everyone

 

Sometimes I think that you Devs never play your own game. This what I see on PTS looks like confirmation

Simply example : I have been playing my Jedi Guardian since 2015, all time abo and since 2015 I use Awe, Saber reflect and Blade Blitz. Many many times I was a "tank" with my Jedi Guardian dps or my Commando dps. I was a "last man standing" but I was calm with my nice ability and now after 6 years you force me to choose ?? I cant use those all ability together no more? Please tell me how can it be better ?? That "good changes" are happend to all class.

 

I will be painfully honest with you. You are going the same way as Blizzard. Many of us don't want that and that's why this post. Hope dies last. There is still time to make it good.

feel you, they add many mando/merc abilities to choose, while so far we can use both ! Where is the better? nowhere !!! PATHETIC !!!

Ah yes, tanks do damage... all, 4k dps compared to... 20+k from the dps. Healers? Uh, 2k if they REALLY keep those dots up. Tank damage/healer damage helps, but it is not meant to be a replacement. DPS DcDs have basically become a replacement for a tank in WAY too much content.

Yes, tanks do damage, but not as much as DPS. Healers do damage, but not as much as DPS. DPS, e.g. Guardian, has survivability, but not as much as tanks. DPS, e.g. Sorcerer has heals, but not as much as a healer.

DPS DcDs haven't become a "replacement" for a tank in any content that requires a tank. There is no sweeping trend in the game of running MM flashpoints and operations without a tank.

One could surmise that BW is wanting to do away with or lessen the dependence on the Triad

If they want me to rely less on a tank and a healer, making me less survivable such that I have a greater need for a tank's distraction and a healer's heals to do the same content I did the day before the patch is a strange choice.

They are literally a clone of Activision Blizzard, complete lack of understanding about what the players want in their game. Everything is numbers and spreadsheets for them

I've been saying for weeks now, they hired some former ATVI Devs. The similarities are EERIE.

After reading all the panic, doom and gloom, I leveled up a character on my favorite class on the PTS and honestly, I liked the changes. I'm not sold on the slower progression of abilities as you level, but the end result was that I enjoyed that class at least as much as before. I had to choose between a couple things I was used to having, but some of the choices made other abilities even better. I didn't really take the time to experiment with all the classes. I figure there will be plenty of time to figure that out between 7.0 and 8.0.

Did you clock in at Bioware before you posted?

One could surmise that BW is wanting to do away with or lessen the dependence on the Triad as other games like ESO did.

The combat changes have the opposite consequence actually. With less survivability for dps classes, they depend on healers and tanks more than ever.

I wonder how messy veteran FPs are going to get now.

Yes, tanks do damage, but not as much as DPS. Healers do damage, but not as much as DPS. DPS, e.g. Guardian, has survivability, but not as much as tanks. DPS, e.g. Sorcerer has heals, but not as much as a healer.

 

DPS DcDs haven't become a "replacement" for a tank in any content that requires a tank. There is no sweeping trend in the game of running MM flashpoints and operations without a tank.

Except there is a sweeping trend of just that. Immortal is the only tank spec I would excuse as it scales well with alacrity and crit so people will do easier tanking content with said gear, but I have been on SM operations with no actual tank spec a ton of times. Why be tank spec when you can just rotate dcds with a healer and make the run faster.

... but I have been on SM operations with no actual tank spec a ton of times.

Thats not a class problem. Its because most raids have never been scaled up to 75 and second that they are not scaled properly. They are unable do it. And so they decided to take the easy road and nerf most classes into the ground with 7.0.

Did you clock in at Bioware before you posted?

I think these are the worst posts on the forums. What some may find incredible is that the 7.0 changes may upset some, but they also are seen positively from others. Just because the loudest are the loudest does not mean they are the minority or the majority, just that they're loud. In every expansion there's always those who don't like the changes, and those that do, and then those that don't care either way. That person who likes the changes aren't wrong or "on the payroll" just like those who aren't happy aren't wrong themselves. Kudos to the guy who spoke their piece in this little stream of negativity.

Me personally? I am in the don't care either way camp. I don't care about weapon outfits so that being delayed means nothing to me. New gearing? Still means nothing to me since new gearing happens every expansion and as a player I'll figure out how to make it work just like in every other expansion. I hated 6.0 and I'm glad it's going away. I'm not going to pass judgement on what I've seen on the PTS since it was what it was. I like the small changes they've announced to the missions. I still have concerns, and that's completely fine. Just like someone who isn't happy should post about it if that helps them. Play or don't. That's all we have at our disposal. If you find enjoyment great, if you don't leave. It's just a game.

In every expansion there's always those who don't like the changes, and those that do, and then those that don't care either way.

Most who like the changes in this new "expansion" either don't care, like you, or don't play the content which is most affected by those changes.

Btw no expansion I've seen in this game has gotten so much negative feedback.

I think these are the worst posts on the forums. What some may find incredible is that the 7.0 changes may upset some, but they also are seen positively from others. Just because the loudest are the loudest does not mean they are the minority or the majority, just that they're loud. In every expansion there's always those who don't like the changes, and those that do, and then those that don't care either way. That person who likes the changes aren't wrong or "on the payroll" just like those who aren't happy aren't wrong themselves. Kudos to the guy who spoke their piece in this little stream of negativity.

 

Me personally? I am in the don't care either way camp. I don't care about weapon outfits so that being delayed means nothing to me. New gearing? Still means nothing to me since new gearing happens every expansion and as a player I'll figure out how to make it work just like in every other expansion. I hated 6.0 and I'm glad it's going away. I'm not going to pass judgement on what I've seen on the PTS since it was what it was. I like the small changes they've announced to the missions. I still have concerns, and that's completely fine. Just like someone who isn't happy should post about it if that helps them. Play or don't. That's all we have at our disposal. If you find enjoyment great, if you don't leave. It's just a game.

If you look at some of the white knight posting histories, the things they talk about and obvious inexperience that belies some of their boasts - and then happen to notice that what one of them is saying and the way they post matches that of other posters with sketchy posting histories nearly identically in certain ways, it very much smacks of marketing. A lot of the posts look like what I would write if I was observing posting patterns on general gaming sites and was given a list of things to highlight and English wasn't my primary language. There were a couple swtor accounts on here from a few months ago that I was pretty sure fell into this category. I don't know about some in this thread and of course there's going to be people that defend BW because they like BW, but I have suspicions for at least one.

If I was a game dev and I wanted to generate positive buzz or mute negative buzz about something happening with my game I would definitely pay people to do social media (including forum posts). It's easy, cheap and can be very effective. Even though not too many read all of these posts, buzz which can be started here is something that spreads. I would also pay people to attack my competition (I'd be very surprised if this game wasn't on the receiving end of that when it launched). And I would also pay some of the big streamers to look at my game (but that's not cheap). Marketing these days isn't just about advertising and trailers. Most companies have highly paid people with expense accounts that are told to shape public perceptions - many have ignored most facets of the internet up until recently but that's changing.

Just like someone who isn't happy should post about it if that helps them. Play or don't. That's all we have at our disposal. If you find enjoyment great, if you don't leave. It's just a game.

If you're not finding enjoyment one should definitely leave. Still though, if you enjoy something now and they're making bad changes why wouldn't you try and give feedback? Why wouldn't you try to save your enjoyment. Giving up isn't any better I assure you.

The op is a little belligerent but a lot of the points made are super important. 7.0 is looking kinda questionable.

Did you clock in at Bioware before you posted?

Did you clock in with Blizzard, er, Microsoft, before you posted. 😂

I think these are the worst posts on the forums. What some may find incredible is that the 7.0 changes may upset some, but they also are seen positively from others. Just because the loudest are the loudest does not mean they are the minority or the majority, just that they're loud. In every expansion there's always those who don't like the changes, and those that do, and then those that don't care either way. That person who likes the changes aren't wrong or "on the payroll" just like those who aren't happy aren't wrong themselves. Kudos to the guy who spoke their piece in this little stream of negativity.

 

Me personally? I am in the don't care either way camp. I don't care about weapon outfits so that being delayed means nothing to me. New gearing? Still means nothing to me since new gearing happens every expansion and as a player I'll figure out how to make it work just like in every other expansion. I hated 6.0 and I'm glad it's going away. I'm not going to pass judgement on what I've seen on the PTS since it was what it was. I like the small changes they've announced to the missions. I still have concerns, and that's completely fine. Just like someone who isn't happy should post about it if that helps them. Play or don't. That's all we have at our disposal. If you find enjoyment great, if you don't leave. It's just a game.

Nah, if there are candidates for worst posts on the forums, it'd have to be the ones that show no sign of having read the room at all and act shocked and offended that being contrarian to the issues people are having with something that's coming by essentially saying "yeah but I like it and/or am fine with it" is not going to be received well. If it was all just a matter of opinion and preference, at least there'd be an excuse for it, but it doesn't work like that. There are aspects of the changes that are more than opinion. Failing to deliver on weapons in outfit designers while also not having new gear be moddable, for example, is less appearance customization at end game compared to the current experience on live. Whether someone cares about that might be a matter of opinion, but the CM is a huge part of this game, so it's obviously going to matter to a lot of people and such a downgrade will hurt sales, so it doesn't even make sense as a design choice, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Also, w/ regards to your goofy speech about leaving if you don't find enjoyment, if you "hated 6.0 and are glad it's going away," then why are you here now? Seems like a load of BS if you don't even follow your own advice.

Nah, if there are candidates for worst posts on the forums, it'd have to be the ones that show no sign of having read the room at all and act shocked and offended that being contrarian to the issues people are having with something that's coming by essentially saying "yeah but I like it and/or am fine with it" is not going to be received well. If it was all just a matter of opinion and preference, at least there'd be an excuse for it, but it doesn't work like that. There are aspects of the changes that are more than opinion. Failing to deliver on weapons in outfit designers while also not having new gear be moddable, for example, is less appearance customization at end game compared to the current experience on live. Whether someone cares about that might be a matter of opinion, but the CM is a huge part of this game, so it's obviously going to matter to a lot of people and such a downgrade will hurt sales, so it doesn't even make sense as a design choice, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

 

Also, w/ regards to your goofy speech about leaving if you don't find enjoyment, if you "hated 6.0 and are glad it's going away," then why are you here now? Seems like a load of BS if you don't even follow your own advice.

I did quit. I returned to the game at the end of November. I missed virtually all of 6.0. I only came back after getting a text from a friend asking me if I wanted to fly some GSF with the old crew. Then, somehow, that turned into raiding again, and that turned into getting asked to join a raid team clearing content I enjoy playing.

I think it's completely fine to post, or be a contrarian. What I do not like, and specifically what I was referencing, were posts like "you being paid by bioware?!" simply because they don't see something exactly like you or others. By all means, if you don't like the expansion from what you see or have experienced on the PTS post about it. Maybe it will get read. Maybe you'll provide the feedback you and others are looking to provide. And if it doesn't go the way you want you can follow what I did and quit, and if you get the itch again I do encourage you to pick the game back up. You never know if it'll grab ya again. What I think is ridiculous are those posts that try to ignore the other side, and make it seem that if they don't agree with you they are somehow wrong and less than you. Which you seem to be trying to do in your round about way to call me goofy.

For the record: I quit this game at the end of April of 2018. I got my HM Izax kill for the wings then headed on to pasture.

If you look at some of the white knight posting histories, the things they talk about and obvious inexperience that belies some of their boasts - and then happen to notice that what one of them is saying and the way they post matches that of other posters with sketchy posting histories nearly identically in certain ways, it very much smacks of marketing. A lot of the posts look like what I would write if I was observing posting patterns on general gaming sites and was given a list of things to highlight and English wasn't my primary language. There were a couple swtor accounts on here from a few months ago that I was pretty sure fell into this category. I don't know about some in this thread and of course there's going to be people that defend BW because they like BW, but I have suspicions for at least one.

And herein lies the very nature of one of the biggest fallacies that plagues social media and online forums. It's called "Appeal to motive" and it definitely does not make your argument any stronger, or the counter-argument any weaker. Simply presuming an ulterior motive because the comment does not align with your perception does not make for a convincing argument. Neither does a reply which is not even trying to challenge the points in the comment except to discredit the person behind it, which was the case with this pretty inappropriate comment:

Did you clock in at Bioware before you posted?

It was the same spiel with the new Social Window. There was a huge outcry on the forums and anyone who did not chime into the chant that it is the worst thing ever and that it should be immediately reverted back to the former state got attacked on an obscene scale. Even more obscene was that some of the people flinging mud left and right had the audacity to claim victim status because mud had been flung right back at them. It is quite telling that no one is talking about said Social Window anymore. Let's see how the people on this forum will talk about the changes in 7.0 when the dust has settled.

I did quit. I returned to the game at the end of November. I missed virtually all of 6.0. I only came back after getting a text from a friend asking me if I wanted to fly some GSF with the old crew. Then, somehow, that turned into raiding again, and that turned into getting asked to join a raid team clearing content I enjoy playing.

 

I think it's completely fine to post, or be a contrarian. What I do not like, and specifically what I was referencing, were posts like "you being paid by bioware?!" simply because they don't see something exactly like you or others. By all means, if you don't like the expansion from what you see or have experienced on the PTS post about it. Maybe it will get read. Maybe you'll provide the feedback you and others are looking to provide. And if it doesn't go the way you want you can follow what I did and quit, and if you get the itch again I do encourage you to pick the game back up. You never know if it'll grab ya again. What I think is ridiculous are those posts that try to ignore the other side, and make it seem that if they don't agree with you they are somehow wrong and less than you. Which you seem to be trying to do in your round about way to call me goofy.

Don't play the victim, you went out of your way to give people a "don't like it, then leave" speech. I called your speech goofy, not you, which it was and it always will be no matter who gives it in what game.

As I said, read the room. There is a difference between doing detailed testing and giving detailed feedback that disagrees with the overwhelming consensus (most of which has been written by people who did detailed testing and gave detailed feedback on what was on the PTS) and simply saying "but I like it / am fine with it." Some people sunk hours of their lives into testing the new stuff for free and writing their feedback on it, only for clowns to come in at the last hour and tell them that "actually, I disagree, ahem hrm" without any remotely comparable effort put into explaining why. It's obnoxious and yes, as someone else rightfully pointed out, reeks of marketing. Comparable effort that disagrees with the consensus has been shared sometimes and it's fine because it gives people something to talk about. Being contrarian does not. It's disrespectful to the time people have put into testing and sharing their feedback, and on top of that, is often openly disrespectful and dismissive in its tone if you actually read how those people post. Like the kind of people who said nonsense like "wait and see" when there was stuff on the PTS to see. Or say this is all just people getting worked up about nothing, without addressing any specific concern.