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Fury Reset


BishopSMASH

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Y'all just have no interest in getting this right, do you?

 

"All active stacks of Fury are lost when a Sith Marauder modifies their utility choices."

 

Let's make the absolute idiocy of this God-forsaken class mechanic perfectly clear, shall we? And we'll do it from a NiM raiding perspective.

 

Before disciplines, Brooding was Carnage only. Clearly, you decided to change it to a general utility because you felt that starting with 30 stacks of Fury was something all specs of the Marauder should have access to. So, the last time you made a change that was a step in the right direction was 2014. Bravo.

 

This still fell short of the mark. Brooding is a utility that really has no place in a fight. The reduced cooldown on Intimidating Roar isn't nearly as useful for Marauders as it is for Juggernauts (tanks, at that), and the utility to which it itself is tied is far worse. Obviously, unless you plan on dying, rezzing, and spending several seconds building 30 stacks, you get zero use out of that portion of the utility the instant combat starts. I sincerely hope this is a newsflash to you.

 

Warriors are the sole basic class that don't passively start a fight with 100% resource allotment. 0 Heat, 100% Force, 100% Energy, and 0 Rage. One of these things is not like the other.

 

Is this the problem? No. Rage is an easy mechanic and the rotations for both Advanced Classes cover this deficit perfectly. So, we can take that out of the equation and put Juggernauts off the table entirely.

 

Adding Fury into the mix, Marauders are the one class that has to actively go out of their way to spec into something that allows them to be prepped as much as possible for a fight. Clearly, you don't have an issue with Marauders starting a fight with 30 stacks of Fury, because if you did, the utility wouldn't exist.

 

What in the ever-loving hell are you trying to accomplish? Why do AP Powertechs get to passively build stacks with their class regen? Why do Mercenaries have the option to click an ability 10 times while running to a boss in order to start a fight fully prepared? Taking the utility, even in the same way Marauders use it, is a joke because it's totally unnecessary for Mercenaries.

 

The only right answer to this is to make the Fury generation a passive Marauder ability, and to either leave Brooding as only reducing Roar's cooldown, or to give it an entire overhaul. This should've been done ages ago, but to be frank, those of us who play Marauder have put up with the relative inconvenience of this utility in its current form because we knew getting you to change it for the better would be nigh-impossible, and we just dealt with it. Of course, now that you've gone and screwed it up further, something needs to be said.

 

6.0 has done a lot of things to encourage bad game-play, and this move is just par for the course. You'll be forcing Marauders to gimp themselves either by taking a worthless utility or by starting a fight with 0 Fury.

 

If you are insistent on making this nonsensical change, then I would at least plead you make Brooding worth it. Tweak it to reduce the cooldown of Frenzy by either 15 or 30 seconds, similar to set bonuses in the past. Something like that.

 

But really and truly, I'd just like to see some reasonable consistency in class design.

Edited by BishopSMASH
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Thank you for making this post.

 

I haven't gotten into marauder in 6.0 yet, but as a player who started playing on a mara, this change makes me mad. I don't see any reason to remove this, and it will make playing mara feel so much more slow and weak before your opener is over.

I completely agree with you, brooding should become a passive for all maras, and there is no reason why it's the only class that has zero resources before it enters combat.

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I'm going to advocate (maybe too strong a word here, but whatever) the other side.

 

Yes, it sucks that Marauder and Sentinel start with 0 resources at all. That said, reading your post, you don't mention the fact that these classes have an ability, Valorous Call/Frenzy, that immediately builds 30 Centering/Fury. I'm certain you're aware of it. Further, the way you worded your disapproval of this change, you make it sound obligatory that you take the utility to build Centering/Fury to have a good start. No, it's not. If there is a utility that has more benefit, take that instead and use Valorous Call/Frenzy to build your 30 stacks of resource.

 

Allowing players to spec a utility to have Introspection/Channel Hatred build resource is nice, but allowing them to do that and then reallocate the utility point that allows that to some other utility while keeping the resource stacks, while probably not a true exploit, certainly seems exploitative.

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I'm going to advocate (maybe too strong a word here, but whatever) the other side.

 

Yes, it sucks that Marauder and Sentinel start with 0 resources at all. That said, reading your post, you don't mention the fact that these classes have an ability, Valorous Call/Frenzy, that immediately builds 30 Centering/Fury. I

 

I don't think Maras can afford to use that ability there;

As I understand it (from my admittedly short run of Fury in mid/late 5.0), you need to pre-load 30 stacks , so that you can raid buff the group (or yourself), then pop Frenzy to re-gain those stacks and continue into your opener.

 

I sympathize with this change; I don't think I've seen a mara in NiM that hasn't done the utility-swap dance, as far back as I've been doing ops, and I've heard the frustration when they had to swap back and forth due to failed ready checks.

 

The only other class that has such a stack-building utility has an alterantive they can passively use on the run-back or while waiting, making the utility useless.

 

Allowing players to spec a utility to have Introspection/Channel Hatred build resource is nice, but allowing them to do that and then reallocate the utility point that allows that to some other utility while keeping the resource stacks, while probably not a true exploit, certainly seems exploitative.

This is a purely out-of-combat utility; akin to swapping my tactical to go to sleep to CC a couple adds, then swap it back to 2 cloaks so the 2nd stack loads before we pull. And it is doing a function that other classes get by default which purely serves (if you're argument is followed) to prevent Mara's from using all of their utility points (since it effectively ruins their opener not to use it).

 

I'm trying to think of any other purely-out-of-combat utilities; are there any?

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I'm going to advocate (maybe too strong a word here, but whatever) the other side.

 

Yes, it sucks that Marauder and Sentinel start with 0 resources at all. That said, reading your post, you don't mention the fact that these classes have an ability, Valorous Call/Frenzy, that immediately builds 30 Centering/Fury. I'm certain you're aware of it. Further, the way you worded your disapproval of this change, you make it sound obligatory that you take the utility to build Centering/Fury to have a good start. No, it's not. If there is a utility that has more benefit, take that instead and use Valorous Call/Frenzy to build your 30 stacks of resource.

 

Allowing players to spec a utility to have Introspection/Channel Hatred build resource is nice, but allowing them to do that and then reallocate the utility point that allows that to some other utility while keeping the resource stacks, while probably not a true exploit, certainly seems exploitative.

 

With the preface of "NiM raiding perspective," it should be understood that it is obligatory to start with 30 stacks because you're obligated to not sandbag in that environment.

 

I'm not gonna discuss how starting with 30 stacks pre-built vs using Frenzy to have 30 stacks to start works in raids. You should already know exactly why "precasting" Frenzy instead of building beforehand is bad if you're gonna try to advocate for an objectively pointless change.

 

To work around this change, I can just make sure we chain pull trash, then the boss. I don't have the utility, but I do have 30 stacks. That's not an exploit. Building stacks before a boss fight is not an exploit, with or without the utility, as there are multiple ways to do it.

 

I appreciate playing Devil's Advocate, but this is simply just an outdated class design. The circle that we're going in with this utility just needs to end, and the stack building should be a passive. There's no reason to tie it to such a useless utility when other similar class mechanics are not so restricted.

Edited by BishopSMASH
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I don't think Maras can afford to use that ability there;

As I understand it (from my admittedly short run of Fury in mid/late 5.0), you need to pre-load 30 stacks , so that you can raid buff the group (or yourself), then pop Frenzy to re-gain those stacks and continue into your opener.

 

I sympathize with this change; I don't think I've seen a mara in NiM that hasn't done the utility-swap dance, as far back as I've been doing ops, and I've heard the frustration when they had to swap back and forth due to failed ready checks.

 

The only other class that has such a stack-building utility has an alterantive they can passively use on the run-back or while waiting, making the utility useless.

 

I understand that's how the opener worked.

 

 

This is a purely out-of-combat utility; akin to swapping my tactical to go to sleep to CC a couple adds, then swap it back to 2 cloaks so the 2nd stack loads before we pull. And it is doing a function that other classes get by default which purely serves (if you're argument is followed) to prevent Mara's from using all of their utility points (since it effectively ruins their opener not to use it).

 

I'm trying to think of any other purely-out-of-combat utilities; are there any?

 

I don't know how to express this without being accused of talking in circles... I think the upshot of this change is that BW designed the tactical system to be a hot-swap of abilities for environment navigation and boss fights. The utility system was meant to be a modification of abilities tailored to specific combat realities at hand (extrapolate that to mean "boss fights" if you wish) but not micromanaged in the way this seems to have been. Essentially "set it and forget it." That's how I'm reading it, anyway.

 

Does it "ruin" the opener? I suppose that depends on your point of view. Certainly it'll need to change now, but here's what I'd propose: Instead of relying on every Marauder/Sentinel using this trick of precasting then modifying their utilities, have some or even just one designated to use the group raid buff after popping Valorous Call/Frenzy (you only need one, right? It does have a 40m range) while the rest use it to pop Zen/Berserk. This frees people from having to dive into their utilities menu multiple times due to failed ready checks as you describe while up against the clock of their resource stacks expiring and taking whatever utility they were going to replace Contemplation/Brooding that actually matters to the fight.

Edited by Automnal
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here's what I'd propose: Instead of relying on every Marauder/Sentinel using this trick of precasting then modifying their utilities, have some or even just one designated to use the group raid buff after popping Valorous Call/Frenzy (you only need one, right? It does have a 40m range) while the rest use it to pop Zen/Berserk. This frees people from having to dive into their utilities menu multiple times due to failed ready checks as you describe while up against the clock of their resource stacks expiring and taking whatever utility they were going to replace Contemplation/Brooding that actually matters to the fight.

 

How many maras do you think a raid has?

 

Also, even assuming you get 2 (or more), I would imagine they would still want to do the pre-proc dance and have the free stacks as an "oh shoot, I messed up" or use it elsewhere vs just popping it at the start to boost their opener.

 

The bottom line is that every class wants to optimize their uptime, APM and DPS output; it's why I'm asked to do a 5-count for snipers instead of my usual three; so that they can place their orbital and have that first tick (if I've done my job right) hit right as I pull and if they're MM they'll place their orbital and pre-cast (I forget the ability name; power shot maybe? NOT a sniper main by any means; I just hold stuff for them~) so that it also hits right as I pull the boss.

 

Most classes have their pre-pull ritual; Maras just have the most tedious one.

Edited by Elssha
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How many maras do you think a raid has?

 

Also, even assuming you get 2 (or more), I would imagine they would still want to do the pre-proc dance and have the free stacks as an "oh shoot, I messed up" or use it elsewhere vs just popping it at the start to boost their opener.

 

The bottom line is that every class wants to optimize their uptime, APM and DPS output; it's why I'm asked to do a 5-count for snipers instead of my usual three; so that they can place their orbital and have that first tick (if I've done my job right) hit right as I pull and if they're MM they'll place their orbital and pre-cast (I forget the ability name; power shot maybe? NOT a sniper main by any means; I just hold stuff for them~) so that it also hits right as I pull the boss.

 

Most classes have their pre-pull ritual; Maras just have the most tedious one.

 

You're telling me EVERY raid only takes one? Okay, if that's the case I learned something new. I can see roster space being at a premium in 8m content, but in 16m? That said, it does work as a solution if there are two or more, no?

Edited by Automnal
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You're telling me EVERY raid only takes one? Okay, if that's the case I learned something new. I can see roster space being at a premium in 8m content, but in 16m? That said, it does work as a solution if there are two or more, no?

 

You have 2 tanks (we are not talking SM where you can 1-tank things); 2 healers, so that leaves 4 spots for DPS.

 

You usually get maybe one mara; you might get more, but it's rare.

 

Even in 16m, usually you will only get one or two maras, mostly for pred. There are far easier, higher output and less annoying (partly due to the stack thing) classes people play; my last 16m had ~6 sorc DPS, 2 PT's, a mara and a sniper.... if I remember right (too lazy to check, sorry).

 

Also, as I've stated previously, even if there was a second one (or a 4th or 6th one, even) each of them would prefer to still do the hotswap dance and have their instant as a "things went wrong" or "bonus DPS" button vs just using it at the start.

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One can only hope that they intend to incorporate that utility into the discipline path in a future update, just like they rolled out the healing changes over the course of a couple of updates. Or, move whatever most Maras used to take right after building their stacks into an existing discipline passive or utility.

 

To think, I was just getting ready to try and learn Fury/Concentration again.

Edited by phalczen
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I am not sure what the intend was here, but I can tell you what the end result is....

 

instead of precasting fury stacks, redoing utilities and then using berserk on pull, maras will do this instead :

 

pick brooding - precast fury stacks - pop berserk - redo utilities super fast - pull boss

 

...or...

 

equip hidden power tactical - use force camo - spam sweeping slash - have 30 fury before boss - equip another tactical.

however one force camo is not enough, you need two, so more than 45s prepare time

 

 

its basicly the same result as before, just WAY MORE ANNOYING TO DO coz you have to redo utilities and pull boss faster and for carnage part of berserk will be wasted ( for anni and fury specs it wont really maky any difference )

or with force camo way, you need more than 45s to build stacks

 

if the intend was to make marauder players to do count down on pull or make their lives even more irritating then good f*****g job!

if the intend was to take their opener dps away then you messed up anyway

if the intend was to just prepare it so you can make fury stacking passive without utility then we can survive this bs for couple days ( yeah.... like that is gonna happen)

Edited by Freezye
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however one force camo is not enough, you need two, so more than 45s prepare time

 

one Force Camo is enough with tactical.

you just need to swap out the hidden power tactical as soon as you use force camo. then you gain more rage than tactical normally gives. i tested it out, i get 30 stacks fury, and leave 1 rage when its done :)

Edited by DamzTheShadow
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I’d be all for rolling Brooding into the basic function of Marauders given how essential it is for them; particularly Fury.

 

That said, the problem isn’t that they fixed the semi-exploit of utility swapping. No one can honestly say that it’s intended design or fair that Sent/Maras essentially had the benefit of ten utilities instead of nine.

 

The problem is that you feel that Sents/Maras effectively have eight utilities instead of 9 since Brooding has no in-combat effect. I’d mostly agree with you on that, hence my first paragraph. But this was a bug and/or design oversight that needed fixing. Rather than demand it be reverted, I’d rather a more proper fix be made to the class and have out of combat Fury generation be the default.

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