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Consular story wasn't as bad as I heard it was on the forums but...(minor spoilers)


Varlak

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I think that story should be completed prior doing any of the sith ones.

 

I feel like the jedi consular plot was fine, and had a few surprises. But it is lacking 1 thing the sith inquisitor and warrior story have.

 

Adversity.

 

As a sith, you start as a slave, your being mocked and you must fight for you life at every moment. Even your own master wants you dead, so you must carefully fight you way from the bottom to the top.

 

As a jedi consular, you are regarded as some sort of genius since day one and you get named Barsentor, after a couple of quest. You don't have to earn anything, everything is handed to you. It takes only a couple of minute of playtime to surpass your jedi master in power. And that is the weak spot of the story.

 

Playing a light jedi consular feels like that everything you get is due to your birthrights connection with the force.

 

If I could compare this to the story of Naruto (for the anime fan). Naruto is a boyscoot, he always do the right thing. But he is a lovable character because he worked harder then anyone else to get where he is. The jedi consular is a boyscoot who was born that way. That's not interesting.

 

Well that is my opinion.

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I agree with your points, a good story shows how a protagonist struggles against adversity, either internal or external, and everything both Jedi classes do is basically just react to events (external struggles) and they don't have any interior monologue or internal issues (which we are left to assume is the dominion of the player to establish).

 

That said, it's not simply for the sake of being a padawan that such happens to the main protagonist (our character). It's for being the protagonist.

 

Just ask Flingeld. There he is, a force user (were he force-blind he'd have no business being on Tython performing padawan trials) but he's so weak as to be dismissed utterly once he makes a bad decision.

 

Powerful Sith who've slaughtered untold numbers of people? SURE! Let's bring them to the light side to fight courageously next to our most esteemed Jedi knights of all time!

 

Flingeld, who, for one moment in one trial takes a shortcut -- and certainly hasn't killed anyone -- probably not even capable of it -- and he's condemned by his master to spend the rest of his life toiling in the temple archives, basically performing labor any droid could accomplish.

 

Not exactly fair.

 

So it may seem like I'm adding fine nuance to a generally obvious situation, but I'm just trying to say the easy life our character has is for being the main character in our story, not for being a Jedi padawan.

 

And if you think about it, the adversity the Sith inquisitor faces as a slave doesn't last long at all. By the time he's off Korriban, he's got a powerful and crafty lord looking after him (albeit for her own purposes), and gets plenty of deference thereafter. So he may have started as a slave, but there's no huge downfall other than Harkun's name-calling. By the time the inquisitor lands on Dromund Kaas -- and given the inquisitor's master in question -- he's in the same position (read: danger) Pfon would have been in had Pfon survived to be Zash's apprentice.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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I agree with your points, a good story shows how a protagonist struggles against adversity, either internal or external, and everything both Jedi classes do is basically just react to events (external struggles) and they don't have any interior monologue or internal issues (which we are left to assume is the dominion of the player to establish).

 

I think you've pretty much nailed it perfectly. The rest of your post is also interesting.

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I agree with your points, a good story shows how a protagonist struggles against adversity, either internal or external, and everything both Jedi classes do is basically just react to events (external struggles) and they don't have any interior monologue or internal issues (which we are left to assume is the dominion of the player to establish).

 

That said, it's not simply for the sake of being a padawan that such happens to the main protagonist (our character). It's for being the protagonist.

 

Just ask Flingeld. There he is, a force user (were he force-blind he'd have no business being on Tython performing padawan trials) but he's so weak as to be dismissed utterly once he makes a bad decision.

 

Powerful Sith who've slaughtered untold numbers of people? SURE! Let's bring them to the light side to fight courageously next to our most esteemed Jedi knights of all time!

 

Flingeld, who, for one moment in one trial takes a shortcut -- and certainly hasn't killed anyone -- probably not even capable of it -- and he's condemned by his master to spend the rest of his life toiling in the temple archives, basically performing labor any droid could accomplish.

 

Not exactly fair.

 

So it may seem like I'm adding fine nuance to a generally obvious situation, but I'm just trying to say the easy life our character has is for being the main character in our story, not for being a Jedi padawan.

 

And if you think about it, the adversity the Sith inquisitor faces as a slave doesn't last long at all. By the time he's off Korriban, he's got a powerful and crafty lord looking after him (albeit for her own purposes), and gets plenty of deference thereafter. So he may have started as a slave, but there's no huge downfall other than Harkun's name-calling. By the time the inquisitor lands on Dromund Kaas -- and given the inquisitor's master in question -- he's in the same position (read: danger) Pfon would have been in had Pfon survived to be Zash's apprentice.

 

When one thinks about it, the Sith are actually more forgiving than the Jedi. Bare with me on this;

Typically, if a Sith Apprentice fails in some task (or, under the later Rule of Two, fails to kill their Master and survives), they're punished, certainly, often painfully and sometimes even in ways that would without Force-Healing, Kolto/Bacta and cybernetics be crippling. But they're rarely straight-up killed unless they failed in such a way that the only way for the Master themselves to save face or prevent retaliation is to kill them. Normally they remain a Sith, learn some abject and painful lesson and are expected not to fail next time.

 

A Jedi makes any little mistake; fall in love, kill someone accidentally, dip into the Dark Side even in defense of self or others, or - as mentioned - even accept their limitations and ask for help (something that, at least in the real world, is actually considered laudable and a sign of self-awareness), or let's not forget the big one... not get picked by some Master to be their Padawan by a certain age. Any little slip and the Jedi throw a person out, typically after already having taken them away from home as a child, broken any ties they have outside of the Order, throw them out into a galaxy that they don't know anything about how to live in (and are then surprised that so many whom they do so to end up falling to the Dark Side in depression, anger and fear...) . If one looks, most of the things that the Jedi blame the 'failures' for are because of the Order's own rules and attitudes not meshing well with actually being living sentients.

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Flingeld, who, for one moment in one trial takes a shortcut -- and certainly hasn't killed anyone -- probably not even capable of it -- and he's condemned by his master to spend the rest of his life toiling in the temple archives, basically performing labor any droid could accomplish.

I don't think Flingeld's problem was "for one moment in one trial", but an ongoing and consistent pattern of not "getting" what being a Jedi means.

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I don't think Flingeld's problem was "for one moment in one trial", but an ongoing and consistent pattern of not "getting" what being a Jedi means.

 

 

You can't change my mind that Flingeld's treatment was absolutely unfair.

 

I'm sure Sith turned to the light weren't 100% "getting" the Jedi code 6 seconds after being turned, and Flingeld's offense could have been easily corrected by a half-hour sit-down lesson by his master as to the thorough meaning of the Jedi code -- as oft-repeated by masters during several moments of the class story -- and subsequently given a chance to reflect on the errors of his ways and be allowed to challenge himself again, as opposed to being condemned to a lifetime of meaningless tasks after one moment in one trial.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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as opposed to being condemned to a lifetime of meaningless tasks after one moment in one trial.

 

Let's not forget; a 'lifetime of meaningless tasks' as dictated by the Master who had just cast him aside. Maybe Flingild would have done better in AgriCorp (if it exists at this point in time) or in some other role; but no, he's sent to be an Archivist, whether he wants to be or not. I would not be surprised if he sneaked onto the next Republic transport off-planet and basically said 'Screw the Jedi Order'.

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When one thinks about it, the Sith are actually more forgiving than the Jedi. Bare with me on this;

Typically, if a Sith Apprentice fails in some task (or, under the later Rule of Two, fails to kill their Master and survives), they're punished, certainly, often painfully and sometimes even in ways that would without Force-Healing, Kolto/Bacta and cybernetics be crippling. But they're rarely straight-up killed unless they failed in such a way that the only way for the Master themselves to save face or prevent retaliation is to kill them. Normally they remain a Sith, learn some abject and painful lesson and are expected not to fail next time.

 

A Jedi makes any little mistake; fall in love, kill someone accidentally, dip into the Dark Side even in defense of self or others, or - as mentioned - even accept their limitations and ask for help (something that, at least in the real world, is actually considered laudable and a sign of self-awareness), or let's not forget the big one... not get picked by some Master to be their Padawan by a certain age. Any little slip and the Jedi throw a person out, typically after already having taken them away from home as a child, broken any ties they have outside of the Order, throw them out into a galaxy that they don't know anything about how to live in (and are then surprised that so many whom they do so to end up falling to the Dark Side in depression, anger and fear...) . If one looks, most of the things that the Jedi blame the 'failures' for are because of the Order's own rules and attitudes not meshing well with actually being living sentients.

 

This is largely correct. And there's a reason for it: Being a Jedi is harder than being a Sith.

 

It is not a punishment to be denied the life of a Jedi, its a mercy to people that just can't do it. Flingeld can't deal with the simple adversity of trying and failing to do a mundane task. Why would you keep pushing him along, despite his failings and the obvious fact he isn't suited for this life, and throw him into a warzone. He can't even keep him composure lifting a rock, and you want him to fight Sith?

 

It doesn't mean he's a failure, it doesn't mean the Order will abandon him. It means he's not suited to a life of servitude and danger. Rather than throwing him to the wolves, you bite the bullet and accept that he can't do it, you send him somewhere safe. He can leave the Order, and its even mentioned that his family had hopes for him so they're still aware of him and can take him in. Or he can help the Order in other ways. But he's not going to get a lightsaber and fight the Empire, because he would be killed.

 

And yes, being a Jedi is at odds with the normal life of doing what you want and indulging yourself. Again, being a Jedi is hard. Its not something you do because its really fun or exciting, its a life of service and humility, putting the well-being of others above yourself. Sometimes you have to set aside your feelings of pity, and hurt someone's feelings to protect them from walking the wrong path.

 

A Sith gets to indulge their desires and do whatever they want, their only limit is their own power. And its understandable why that's more fun to play. Its easier than playing a Jedi, and frankly easier to understand. Being selfish comes naturally, using power to benefit yourself feels good. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do. A Jedi has to put aside their own wants and desires, look past their emotions of fear or anger or sadness, and try to understand the bigger picture. Its not easy and its not fun, so its no surprise Jedi fall. But it leads to a better outcome in the end.

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I agree with your points, a good story shows how a protagonist struggles against adversity, either internal or external, and everything both Jedi classes do is basically just react to events (external struggles) and they don't have any interior monologue or internal issues (which we are left to assume is the dominion of the player to establish).

 

I think you're right about the lack of interior monologue or internal issues provided by the story itself, but that's also because the game is an MMORPG - we're meant to create our own character. The dialogue options and choices are meant to guide our headcanons imo, not hand hold us through a set path imo.

 

My latest Jedi Guardian actually started out leaning towards the dark side, not because she is a sith or anything, but because she wanted power to fight the sith by any means necessary and grew up in a wartime environment surrounded by suffering. However, as the story progressed she (in my head) learnt the true way of the jedi and began helping people more to the point where she is now fully light side. She still struggles with war and is more drawn to battle than meditation and I pick the dialogue options that reflect that. On Rishi, you can respond to your contact by saying how it's not always easy to remember what it means to be a jedi, and you get asked what you'd like to do when the war is over.

 

So yes, the jedi knight does react to events that happen around them more so than the inquisitor and warrior who seize their own power and titles, but the player also chooses how their character reacts to those same events.

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Why would you keep pushing him along, despite his failings and the obvious fact he isn't suited for this life

 

Imagine a parent hoisting their kid back onto their feet, dusting them off and saying you know what, yes, you fell off your bike. But you can learn this. You can figure it out. And I'm here to help you do it.

Good parenting, would anyone say?

 

Now imagine a parent with no sense of guardianship, custodianship, over the outcome of their children's failings:

 

Kid: I can't figure out my algebra. This is too hard. Why do I have to learn this, anyway?

Dad: You don't, son. I sure as hell won't push you into something too hard for you, and you're sixteen, so drop out of school and save us both the trouble of worrying about you, oh, and by the way, here's a shovel. You're hereby digging ditches the rest of your life.

 

With so many instances in the class stories of our Jedi characters offering to turn the Sith to the light -- such as the JK offtering to turn around a Sith when encountering him on Tatooine if you play the story light-side -- and placing that Sith in the care of the Jedi masters on Tython to make it happen -- then it's not so far fetched that Flingeld's master could have done so much more to help turn Flingeld around.

 

Did Flingeld's master even try to inspire him to do better? To challenge himself to reflect on why what he'd done could have been handled better? No. Not one breath toward that.

 

Flingeld wasn't an absolute failure at being a padawan. His master was freaking lazy and subsequently quick to dispense with padawns requiring any sort of investment on his part.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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Imagine a parent hoisting their kid back onto their feet, dusting them off and saying you know what, yes, you fell off your bike. But you can learn this. You can figure it out. And I'm here to help you do it.

Good parenting, would anyone say?

 

Now imagine a parent with no sense of guardianship, custodianship, over the outcome of their children's failings:

 

Kid: I can't figure out my algebra. This is too hard. Why do I have to learn this, anyway?

Dad: You don't, son. I sure as hell won't push you into something too hard for you, and you're sixteen, so drop out of school and save us both the trouble of worrying about you, oh, and by the way, here's a shovel. You're hereby digging ditches the rest of your life.

 

With so many instances in the class stories of our Jedi characters offering to turn the Sith to the light -- such as the JK offtering to turn around a Sith when encountering him on Tatooine if you play the story light-side -- and placing that Sith in the care of the Jedi masters on Tython to make it happen -- then it's not so far fetched that Flingeld's master could have done so much more to help turn Flingeld around.

 

Did Flingeld's master even try to inspire him to do better? To challenge himself to reflect on why what he'd done could have been handled better? No. Not one breath toward that.

 

Flingeld wasn't an absolute failure at being a padawan. His master was freaking lazy and subsequently quick to dispense with padawns requiring any sort of investment on his part.

 

You can point out his Master wasn't great, but at the same time being a Jedi Knight is a commitment in itself. Voluntary, and self-limiting. Flin effectively opted out of the dedication, while the Sith defector was first a prisoner of war and then volunteer.

 

That said, Flingeld's master set the task as a lesson and a test, so while both parties didn't cover themselves with glory, trying to cheat and lie definitely didn't suggest he was cut out for Knighthood.

 

That said, given the Master says "there's no room for pity in the life of a Jedi"....yeah, both parties deserved each other here and that Jedi was master of nothing.

 

That said, it's not like working in the Jedi archives is a bad outcome? It's not fighting on the losing side of a messy war, you get to work with rare and hidden materials in a nice peaceful environment. It's not glorious but it's what Jedi should do in better circumstances.

Edited by Ugolino
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You can point out his Master wasn't great, but at the same time being a Jedi Knight is a commitment in itself. Voluntary, and self-limiting. Flin effectively opted out of the dedication, while the Sith defector was first a prisoner of war and then volunteer.

 

That said, Flingeld's master set the task as a lesson and a test, so while both parties didn't cover themselves with glory, trying to cheat and lie definitely didn't suggest he was cut out for Knighthood.

 

That said, given the Master says "there's no room for pity in the life of a Jedi"....yeah, both parties deserved each other here and that Jedi was master of nothing.

 

That said, it's not like working in the Jedi archives is a bad outcome? It's not fighting on the losing side of a messy war, you get to work with rare and hidden materials in a nice peaceful environment. It's not glorious but it's what Jedi should do in better circumstances.

 

There are real-life examples of not wonderful ways to get washed out from one's aspirations. Cadets who wash out from the Air Force Academy must still serve the Armed Forces in an enlisted role for a full stint, and it's not up for discussion.

 

Luckily for me before I ever applied to the Academy, which had been a dream of mine ever since I first stepped foot inside the amazingly beautiful Air Force Academy chapel in 1977, I eventually got honest with myself that I was gay, because gay (by the time I was eligible to apply in 1986) meant being radioactive as far as serving in the U.S. armed forces, and I wasn't going to live a lie. No AFA for me. No career as a test pilot. No Air Force career at all. All hope for that gone. Zip. Toast. Nada. Nichts. Nieko.

 

So I wound up in the Jedi archives working shoulder to shoulder with the true washouts: the ones who got into the Academy, washed out, served their enlisted stint, and got out -- working as a civilian military defense contractor and telling myself I was still aiding my country in some small way. Thirty years later I'm still telling myself I did something useful during that time.

 

So on many levels, I can feel for Flingeld.

 

He actually got a chance fulfilling his aspirations. One mistake -- one -- and he was out. Cheat on your Air Force exams, and you're also out. So there's definitely a strong parallel between the AFA and the Jedi Order (in that regard, at least).

 

But Jedi Masters have far more latitude to decide what happens to their padawans than the Air Force Review Board, up to and including helping their padawans succeed toward the light side to support the Order as full Jedi.

 

So yes.

I still count myself free to fault Flingeld's master for not even trying.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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With so many instances in the class stories of our Jedi characters offering to turn the Sith to the light -- such as the JK offtering to turn around a Sith when encountering him on Tatooine if you play the story light-side -- and placing that Sith in the care of the Jedi masters on Tython to make it happen -- then it's not so far fetched that Flingeld's master could have done so much more to help turn Flingeld around.

 

Did Flingeld's master even try to inspire him to do better? To challenge himself to reflect on why what he'd done could have been handled better? No. Not one breath toward that.

 

Flingeld wasn't an absolute failure at being a padawan. His master was freaking lazy and subsequently quick to dispense with padawns requiring any sort of investment on his part.

 

The Sith are already trained in the Force, an extreme danger. You offer to bring them back to the Light to arrive at the best possible outcome. They don't have to die, they aren't a danger, they can help others. Its not treating them better than Flingeld, its making the best of the situation presented to you.

 

Flingeld shouldn't be viewed as a failure, not becoming a Jedi is not a punishment. Again, being a Jedi is hard. Very hard. It goes against people's natural inclination, and sounds like a drag. A life of servitude, discipline, and restraint.

 

His Master says there's no room in a Jedi's life for pity, and his Master is right. What good is pity? You feel sorry for Flingeld and say he can be a Jedi after all? Why? What purpose did that serve? You've advanced Flingeld to a position he can't live up to because you don't want to feel guilt for being the one that said he wasn't good enough.

 

Why should you feel pity that he won't become a Jedi? Why did he want to be a Jedi? If the answer is anything but "To serve others and follow the will of the Force." then he never wanted to actually be a Jedi, he wanted respect. Or recognition. Or power. Things that Jedi do not seek or desire. If he did just want to help others like a proper Jedi, then you swallow the bitter pill of not being a Knight and take a role doing that some other way. It is okay to admit you don't have the right mindset to be a Jedi Knight, very few people do.

 

I think its implied that Flingeld has failed before, but assuming this is his first real failure and his Master immediately cast him aside, yes it is absolutely possible his Master made a mistake. Jedi are not perfect, there are plenty of examples of them screwing up or making the wrong decision. But the principle behind his Master's decision is solid and absolutely true. If you cannot deal with failure, if you seek short cuts, then you will not make it as a Jedi. Pity is the same as fear or anger or sadness in that it is an emotion that clouds your judgement, it should not factor into a Jedi's decisions. Like all emotions, you need to feel it, acknowledge it, but then let it go and make your decision with a clear mind.

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The Sith are already trained in the Force, an extreme danger. You offer to bring them back to the Light to arrive at the best possible outcome. They don't have to die, they aren't a danger, they can help others. Its not treating them better than Flingeld, its making the best of the situation presented to you.

 

Flingeld shouldn't be viewed as a failure, not becoming a Jedi is not a punishment. Again, being a Jedi is hard. Very hard. It goes against people's natural inclination, and sounds like a drag. A life of servitude, discipline, and restraint.

 

His Master says there's no room in a Jedi's life for pity, and his Master is right. What good is pity? You feel sorry for Flingeld and say he can be a Jedi after all? Why? What purpose did that serve? You've advanced Flingeld to a position he can't live up to because you don't want to feel guilt for being the one that said he wasn't good enough.

 

Why should you feel pity that he won't become a Jedi? Why did he want to be a Jedi? If the answer is anything but "To serve others and follow the will of the Force." then he never wanted to actually be a Jedi, he wanted respect. Or recognition. Or power. Things that Jedi do not seek or desire. If he did just want to help others like a proper Jedi, then you swallow the bitter pill of not being a Knight and take a role doing that some other way. It is okay to admit you don't have the right mindset to be a Jedi Knight, very few people do.

 

I think its implied that Flingeld has failed before, but assuming this is his first real failure and his Master immediately cast him aside, yes it is absolutely possible his Master made a mistake. Jedi are not perfect, there are plenty of examples of them screwing up or making the wrong decision. But the principle behind his Master's decision is solid and absolutely true. If you cannot deal with failure, if you seek short cuts, then you will not make it as a Jedi. Pity is the same as fear or anger or sadness in that it is an emotion that clouds your judgement, it should not factor into a Jedi's decisions. Like all emotions, you need to feel it, acknowledge it, but then let it go and make your decision with a clear mind.

Pity is compassion, something that "Master" sorely lacked in his handling of things.

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Pity is compassion, something that "Master" sorely lacked in his handling of things.

 

Pity is guilt, avoiding something for how it will make you feel. You feel sorry for Flingeld, show him pity, and push him along a path he cannot walk.

 

Compassion is understanding, knowing why it hurts Flingeld to know he won't become a Jedi, and trying to help him overcome it. Flingeld is not a lesser person because he isn't a Jedi, helping him understand that should be the next step.

 

I can agree the Master was blunt and didn't help Flingeld in accepting the decision. Maybe he intended to do it later, but if we assume he didn't, then that was wrong. Jedi Masters screw up, and some of them are too harsh. Some are too forgiving. They aren't perfect, they're walking an even more difficult path and its only natural they will mess up.

 

The principle behind the Master's decision was correct though. You can't make decisions with emotion clouding your judgement. Pity does not help you or the one you feel it for. The failure on the Master's part was that he didn't help Flingeld move past the sadness of failure. A Jedi needs to learn to let go of their own emotions, and ideally help others move past the emotions holding them back as well.

 

But that bit about the life of a Jedi being hard applies to both master and student in this case, I don't hold it against either of them to have failed in upholding Jedi ideals. Just acknowledge them and say they can both do better.

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