Not unreasonable points - though I'm not certain the analogy applies to our current circumstance or discussion; there are a large pool of players in opposition or with worthy critiques where it would be foolish not to weigh them.

True but how often do you see positive posts, threads, YouTube videos, etc, about features in SWTOR versus things people are upset or concerned about? The same applies to all forms of entertainment really.

The negative sides of those arguments in many cases will always seem to be bigger because the people who are excited about the changes don't tend to make the same type of noise if any noise at all.

For example, if they announced Class Stories were coming back it would get a positive reaction for sure but the moment would probably pass quickly compared to something people are upset about which tends to be the case.

Think about when something gets announced that upsets a lot of people only for it later to turn out that thing wasn't true or there was no need to worry after someone released a statement correcting the situation. That initial negative reaction always gets way more attention and a lasting impression than the correction ever does. Why is that?

My point being there are obviously a lot of people concerned about it this but it's coming across like they're the only ones that matter without any way to accurately gauge the reception of people who are looking forward to the changes.

At this point it really feels like more people need to get their hands on Combat Styles and that's not me saying wait to judge but rather until a significant amount of people get their hands on it or the population at large says they do or don't like it we're not going see any kind of significant change with it. That's just typically the way these things go.

The problem with SWTOR specifically in this regard is that their turnaround time to address things tends to be analogous to their time between updates which is few and far between.

This is unfortunately another thing SWTOR shares with WoW, not the frequency of updates, but for whatever reason WoW will not tend to change anything about a feature until the next big update goes live instead of putting out a patch or hotfix not long after to address that one thing.

 

At this point it really feels like more people need to get their hands on Combat Styles and that's not me saying wait to judge but rather until a significant amount of people get their hands on it or the population at large says they do or don't like it we're not going see any kind of significant change with it. That's just typically the way these things go.

 

We're in agreement on this point.

Sadly in this life, you snooze you lose - if there is a call for player testing and feedback, and the people that would be proponents of the change(s) don't come and speak up (there's a thread called "In favor of pruning") on PTS Forum that supports the changes, then anyone else not participating in providing feedback can't complain if the change is modified or aborted due to opposition.

I'm not advocating that the loudest voice in the room wins - I'm just stating the reality is that a voice never raised can not be the basis of inaction - the well 'maybe' there could be more proponents than opponents, can't be the basis on whether or not to proceed.

At some point you have to Podoo or get off the Pot; as the old saying goes.

Those among the conservative pro-steward approach to the future of SWTOR should not be dismissed or ignored because of a 'potential' that is not based in evidence.

So I agree that the better approach would have been to have this all out on PTS with all classes and encouraging testing in both Operations and Unranked/Ranked Warzones, so that as word gets around about the changes, there's a measurable pulse on the sense of the community rather than just shooting blindly in the dark.

But as it stands right now - the voices on the forums providing the requested feedback are going to be first in line.

So I agree that the better approach would have been to have this all out on PTS with all classes and encouraging testing in both Operations and Unranked/Ranked Warzones, so that as word gets around about the changes, there's a measurable pulse on the sense of the community rather than just shooting blindly in the dark.

Yeah, the slow rollout doesn't feel like the right move given we're not that far away from release and it'll no doubt make the compatibility of testing classes with and against each other harder.

As it stands right now all the feedback they've gotten about the Guardian exists within a vacuum because it was the only class that could be tested with the new changes but the perception about what is bad, good, needed or not needed will no doubt change when the other classes are made available to test.

Yeah, the slow rollout doesn't feel like the right move given we're not that far away from release and it'll no doubt make the compatibility of testing classes with and against each other harder.

 

As it stands right now all the feedback they've gotten about the Guardian exists within a vacuum because it was the only class that could be tested with the new changes but the perception about what is bad, good, needed or not needed will no doubt change when the other classes are made available to test.

I get their interest in finding some viable rebranded nerf of the Damage with Tank - Skank Tank specs like Guardian or Juggernaut.

Last night in my Assassin Darkness Skank-Tank build I ran 1 Unranked Warzone that match-made as a 4 v 4 - it was 1 Powertech (qued as Tank) and 3 Juggernauts (qued as Damage), where as we had a mix of my Sin Darkness Skank-Tank (DwT but showing qued as Tank), 1 Guardian (qued as Damage), 1 Sin Deception (DPS), and 1 Shadow (DPS)...

We got tunneled and focused one by one, and the damage mitigation (and lack of coordination on our side) left us unable to score a single kill both rounds of the match.

Yet if I practice PVP with another player at the Rishi Stronghold PVP arena I have an even chance of besting them by a slight margin of HP left in a fair fight where we both dropping med-packs and our Active abilities and DCD's. You see great balance where the Sin Darkness in Skank-Tank build as a DwT can play evenly against a Juggernaut (this friendly player's build was Rage).

This dominant meta, of the majority running Juggernaut is not the healthiest thing for PVP, but if I apply the ability pruning approach to my Sin Darkness. the thought of not having the player agency to 'choose' when and in what circumstance I can pop my defensive's in PVP is akin to not being able to use two-cloaks how and when I deem necessary.

This removes player choice - it does not increase player choice.

In my layman game design head, but also as a veteran player from launch, it seems that the real issue lays in how STRONG the DCD's are. But consolidating them into Melee/Ranged abilities that are being actively used to Damage a target means you are removing the players ability to maximize there DPS as they will be forced to conserve an important ability so as to have the DCD available.

So this is a shell game, players will still preserve their DCD's for the right moment, targets like Juggernaut will still dominate the meta (people aren't going to throw away and biomass their Juggernauts), and the only thing you will see is the DPS stats in Unranked/Ranked drop BUT the time it takes to kill will remain the same...

... because players will preserve their play style that they've been using for years, and simply adapt that play style to the new combat mechanics, will less DPS.

Less DPS means even LONGER TIME TO KILL.

This theory is very distressing to certain droids...

EDIT: Forgot to mention that another piece to solve this puzzle as I see it is to have an updated Match Maker that prevents multiple Juggernauts from que syncing. We need a balanced Match Maker that slots in class categories.

Or at the very minimum a new Warzone type between Unranked and Ranked that adds this stricter Match Making - removing the 3-4 (or more) Juggernaut's in a match on one team.