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In favor of ability pruning


dwimorling

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Funny thing I automatically assumed it would be available in the 2 min prelude to a WZ...It never even occurred to me that it wouldn't based off the concept behind offering loadouts to begin with...Seems funny to cripple the flexibility they provide by forcing people to switch before entering an instance.

 

Certainly should be locked once the WZ "starts". No out of combat switches...

 

I always assumed in PvE instances you could change a loadout any time you exit combat... Seems like a good idea to switch strats mid instance and change group configuration... Once again it seems counter intuitive to having "loadouts" without being able to use them except standing in fleet or your stronghold...

 

They already lock swapping gear or utility in some reg maps like Voidstar, but you can do it in ranked. I still can’t get an answer from Bio if that’s a bug or intended.

I highly doubt they’ll allow load outs to be swapped once you pop and accept a match. But we won’t know unless we test it or they announce it before the expansion.

If I had to guess, I would say it’s not even on their radar yet. So it will probably be overlooked and fixed the way they want it after the expansion launches.

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If everyone loses DCD(s) equally it just increases TTK and forces people to engage more carefully outside of the DCD windows not having the ability to constantly rotate DCD(s).

 

...

 

I like the idea that one Mara/Merc/Jugg can set them self apart from other Mara/Merc/Jugg(s) by way of build/gear/ability choices...That is cool. Ability choices done properly could reintroduce "play styles" to SWToR. The danger is making the options to few and thus making combat lame...

 

From what I've seen and tried so far on PTS, too much is being removed without enough compensation. Is having a lower time to kill at the expense of less interesting combat a good thing?

 

What would be much more interesting is if instead of forcing us to choose between the abilities we currently have, make it so every ABC level that currently has one ability choice instead has 3 skills. What I mean is instead of choosing between two passives and an ability, always choose between three abilities.

 

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

 

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

 

Idk, ABC has a lot of potential but it needs a bunch more work and we only have a few months before launch. The devs really need to be putting changes out every week or two maximum with new abilities (even if they're just reusing animations to prototype them) and new passives to see what works and what the players enjoy.

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From what I've seen and tried so far on PTS, too much is being removed without enough compensation. Is having a lower time to kill at the expense of less interesting combat a good thing?

 

What would be much more interesting is if instead of forcing us to choose between the abilities we currently have, make it so every ABC level that currently has one ability choice instead has 3 skills. What I mean is instead of choosing between two passives and an ability, always choose between three abilities.

 

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

 

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

 

Idk, ABC has a lot of potential but it needs a bunch more work and we only have a few months before launch. The devs really need to be putting changes out every week or two maximum with new abilities (even if they're just reusing animations to prototype them) and new passives to see what works and what the players enjoy.

 

I agree that more ability choices per tier are needed to make this system appealing. Since they are supposedly allowing some form of AC swapping within the confines of Force vs Tech users I would even be interested in abilities from other AC(s) being offered as options (probably never happen) but for example a Juggernaut chooses force lightning instead of Fore choke...

 

This would allow for more ability choices at each tier and add more RP value plus an increase in a players ability to refine their builds to a specific purpose IE pure DPS or high mobility/burst mix or mid ranged dmg/melee etc...

 

I havn't seen Bioware invest this type/level of development in SWToR to a level that would suggest they could/would make this level of change...well pretty much ever but one can hope.

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...

 

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

 

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

 

...

 

 

Your post spurs a thought...

 

How shocked are players going to be (those that haven't PTS Tested and/or haven't followed the forums), when they realize that these supposed "ɔhoiɔes" are not going to allow them to build back their current abilities, actives, and passives to anything near resembling what they are used to playing now?

 

Taking away someone's favorite Space Barbie and telling them you can't play with that anymore, but here's one similar too it... it evokes every scene ever made in movies of a poor little kid who deeply loves their ragged old toy, but some oblivious parent that blindly assumes - hey this is newer and shinier so it must be better.

 

Bioware EA can ultimately change whatever they want, but there is going to be a shock to the player base, when people realize they can't have their ragged old toy anymore - myself being one of them... even though I know this is coming (in some form).

 

The inability to play what I've always played is not appealing to me --- I mean I just got my butt-cape handed to me on a platter trying my very first Hard Mode Dxunn Operation - even with all of my allegedly broken and overpowered DCD's, my 306 Item rated and Set-Bonused Full Tank Gear - even as the off tank, I melted like butter in the Tatooine midday Suns...

 

It was horrifyingly embarrassing.

 

So it leaves this weird contradiction, where in some instances/places the way the combat system has been developed could be considered Overpowered (Devs did that Players are Innocent Victims) - and in other instances/places your DCD's etc don't mean Podoo, its all about best named in slot armorings, mods, and enhancements PLUS only the mechanics of the operation really matter.

 

Sharing this humiliation as a Tank I experienced last night is to highlight that there are serious incongruities in the combat content in this game, and that it's, as others are pointing out, A LOT OF STUFF TO BALANCE.

 

And its pretty apparent that Bioware is understaffed, underfunded, and over worked - I'm really worried that this is going to blow up, and be a giant dent against SWTOR's reputation and community.

Edited by Kass
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Your post spurs a thought...

 

How shocked are players going to be (those that haven't PTS Tested and/or haven't followed the forums), when they realize that these supposed "ɔhoiɔes" are not going to allow them to build back their current abilities, actives, and passives to anything near resembling what they are used to playing now?

 

Taking away someone's favorite Space Barbie and telling them you can't play with that anymore, but here's one similar too it... it evokes every scene ever made in movies of a poor little kid who deeply loves their ragged old toy, but some oblivious parent that blindly assumes - hey this is newer and shinier so it must be better.

 

Bioware EA can ultimately change whatever they want, but there is going to be a shock to the player base, when people realize they can't have their ragged old toy anymore - myself being one of them... even though I know this is coming (in some form).

 

The inability to play what I've always played is not appealing to me --- I mean I just got my butt-cape handed to me on a platter trying my very first Hard Mode Dxunn Operation - even with all of my allegedly broken and overpowered DCD's, my 306 Item rated and Set-Bonused Full Tank Gear - even as the off tank, I melted like butter in the Tatooine midday Suns...

 

It was horrifyingly embarrassing.

 

So it leaves this weird contradiction, where in some instances/places the way the combat system has been developed could be considered Overpowered (Devs did that Players are Innocent Victims) - and in other instances/places your DCD's etc don't mean Podoo, its all about best named in slot armorings, mods, and enhancements PLUS only the mechanics of the operation really matter.

 

Sharing this humiliation as a Tank I experienced last night is to highlight that there are serious incongruities in the combat content in this game, and that it's, as others are pointing out, A LOT OF STUFF TO BALANCE.

 

And its pretty apparent that Bioware is understaffed, underfunded, and over worked - I'm really worried that this is going to blow up, and be a giant dent against SWTOR's reputation and community.

 

I'm pretty sure you just described the plot to Toy Story.

 

I think limiting ability access volume no matter how much will feel bad to players...Bioware will need to compensate players with a rewarding replacement system "Loadouts" and an overall FUN and rewarding expansion to overcome the frustration people will feel.

 

If Bioware straight up just prunes abilities, combines abilities and then feeds them back to players in a limited access loadout this will result in major dissent no doubt about it Bioware be warned...

 

This is not the time to bully a player base leveraging an IP or Nostalgia because we have a very large example of how that can go happening as we type.

 

This expansion should bring positive changes which improve immersion and fun gameplay, innovation and new content otherwise its not worth doing...

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I'm pretty sure you just described the plot to Toy Story.

 

I think limiting ability access volume no matter how much will feel bad to players...Bioware will need to compensate players with a rewarding replacement system "Loadouts" and an overall FUN and rewarding expansion to overcome the frustration people will feel.

 

If Bioware straight up just prunes abilities, combines abilities and then feeds them back to players in a limited access loadout this will result in major dissent no doubt about it Bioware be warned...

 

This is not the time to bully a player base leveraging an IP or Nostalgia because we have a very large example of how that can go happening as we type.

 

This expansion should bring positive changes which improve immersion and fun gameplay, innovation and new content otherwise its not worth doing...

 

There needs to be a Toy Story 6 with a Star Wars Toy... just sayin'

 

But yeah we're in agreement - if they don't get this right THE FIRST TIME... this is going to be a community dumpster fire.

 

The worst thing to be done in a Pandemic is make player entertainment LESS entertaining.

 

#insearchof7800707

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The inability to play what I've always played is not appealing to me --- I mean I just got my butt-cape handed to me on a platter trying my very first Hard Mode Dxunn Operation - even with all of my allegedly broken and overpowered DCD's, my 306 Item rated and Set-Bonused Full Tank Gear - even as the off tank, I melted like butter in the Tatooine midday Suns...

 

It was horrifyingly embarrassing.

 

So it leaves this weird contradiction, where in some instances/places the way the combat system has been developed could be considered Overpowered (Devs did that Players are Innocent Victims) - and in other instances/places your DCD's etc don't mean Podoo, its all about best named in slot armorings, mods, and enhancements PLUS only the mechanics of the operation really matter.

If I understand correctly, and feel free to correct me if I don't, you are saying that in some of the harder PvE content it's all about BiS item modifcations and DCD's don't mean poodo? Because that is very much untrue for tanks. The most important thing about staying alive as a tank is knowing what your defensives can and can't do and managing them properly. Optimising gear will of course help you out a bit, but as long as you're rocking augmented 306 gear proper knowledge of cooldowns is going to be vastly more important than having the exact correct mods and stat balance, as long as you're not doing something completely absurd with your stats.

 

And seeing Guardian on PTS currently (the only tank spec we can test currently) they come out pretty well in the defensives department. The choice between Saber Reflect, Blade Blitz and Enure will be tough, but I reckon on most fights right now very doable.

If you really need a self cleanse, you pick Enure. If you can consistenly use Blade Blitz on specific large hits, you pick Blade Blitz. Otherwise if you don't need Blade Blitz and there is something you can use Saber Reflect. If both Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz have no defensive utility on a given fight, of which there are a handful, you probably want to pick Enure for the health loan, or Blade Blitz for mobility. The only fight I'm really concerned for is Brontes, taking orbs will be a lot harder without both Reflect and Blitz, but then again Brontes came out before Blade Blitz was even a thing, so it should be doable.

 

All of our other defensive cooldowns, Saber Ward, Warding Call and Focused Defense remain intact. I think some people are slightly overestimating the impact on available defensives for tanks, but we'll see when we get some more classes added to PTS and can actually try some of the harder content with the proposed changes.

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He doesn't need practice. He needs less buttons..

He can simply go into UI settings and remove quick bars, then only put what he wants in the remaining.

No need to remove abilities for the other players who wants them.

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If I understand correctly, and feel free to correct me if I don't, you are saying that in some of the harder PvE content it's all about BiS item modifcations and DCD's don't mean poodo? Because that is very much untrue for tanks. The most important thing about staying alive as a tank is knowing what your defensives can and can't do and managing them properly. Optimising gear will of course help you out a bit, but as long as you're rocking augmented 306 gear proper knowledge of cooldowns is going to be vastly more important than having the exact correct mods and stat balance, as long as you're not doing something completely absurd with your stats.

 

And seeing Guardian on PTS currently (the only tank spec we can test currently) they come out pretty well in the defensives department. The choice between Saber Reflect, Blade Blitz and Enure will be tough, but I reckon on most fights right now very doable.

If you really need a self cleanse, you pick Enure. If you can consistenly use Blade Blitz on specific large hits, you pick Blade Blitz. Otherwise if you don't need Blade Blitz and there is something you can use Saber Reflect. If both Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz have no defensive utility on a given fight, of which there are a handful, you probably want to pick Enure for the health loan, or Blade Blitz for mobility. The only fight I'm really concerned for is Brontes, taking orbs will be a lot harder without both Reflect and Blitz, but then again Brontes came out before Blade Blitz was even a thing, so it should be doable.

 

All of our other defensive cooldowns, Saber Ward, Warding Call and Focused Defense remain intact. I think some people are slightly overestimating the impact on available defensives for tanks, but we'll see when we get some more classes added to PTS and can actually try some of the harder content with the proposed changes.

 

tbqh I was ranting a bit, and was only semi serious. :d_mad:

 

I know DCD's are still needed but I learned the hard way that fighting "Red" in Dxunn Operation where you can't DCD Cleanse, and you're taking stacks that have to be cleansed by a environmental object...

 

But rather than rant all over again, I'll just say A) Regarding HM/NiM Ops I was quite humbled - maybe as off tank I wasn't getting healed, but it sure felt like nothing I did regarding my DCD's and avoiding cleaves and acid pools did anything to improve my survivability. B) that Operations and PvE content are in no way similar to PVP - not that this is unknown.

 

It was just a really bad experience - and not because #toomanybuttons_7800707 - but because the buttons I had didn't do me any good (tbh I thought I was joining SM Dxunn... oops), so taking more of Darkness' already nerfed class and pruning more DCD's...

 

... just leaves me scratching my head.

 

So

Edited by Kass
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tbqh I was ranting a bit, and was only semi serious. :d_mad:

 

I know DCD's are still needed but I learned the hard way that fighting "Red" in Dxunn Operation where you can't DCD Cleanse, and you're taking stacks that have to be cleansed by a environmental object...

 

But rather than rant all over again, I'll just say A) Regarding HM/NiM Ops I was quite humbled - maybe as off tank I wasn't getting healed, but it sure felt like nothing I did regarding my DCD's and avoiding cleaves and acid pools did anything to improve my survivability. B) that Operations and PvE content are in no way similar to PVP - not that this is unknown.

 

It was just a really bad experience - and not because #toomanybuttons_7800707 - but because the buttons I had didn't do me any good (tbh I thought I was joining SM Dxunn... oops), so taking more of Darkness' already nerfed class and pruning more DCD's...

 

... just leaves me scratching my head.

 

So

 

Yeah fair enough if mechanics go horribly wrong, DCD's can't save you there. That said Assassin is the one tank spec that really can use some rebalancing of its cooldowns. As it stands (and has been standing for years) Shroud is just too much, at least with how often you can use it. Several mechanics are completely avoidable if you just bring one Darkness Assassin along. Pretty much every ops team brings along at least one Sin tank when doing NiMs, sometimes two, and it's mainly because of how ridiculous Shroud is.

 

Some way where you'd have to pick through the new system between different variants of Shroud. Maybe having to pick between Shroud of Madness and Disjunction, or between Shroud of Madness and Shroud the ability itself.

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Yeah fair enough if mechanics go horribly wrong, DCD's can't save you there. That said Assassin is the one tank spec that really can use some rebalancing of its cooldowns. As it stands (and has been standing for years) Shroud is just too much, at least with how often you can use it. Several mechanics are completely avoidable if you just bring one Darkness Assassin along. Pretty much every ops team brings along at least one Sin tank when doing NiMs, sometimes two, and it's mainly because of how ridiculous Shroud is.

 

Some way where you'd have to pick through the new system between different variants of Shroud. Maybe having to pick between Shroud of Madness and Disjunction, or between Shroud of Madness and Shroud the ability itself.

 

In contrast though Assassin Darkness in PVP is an F- in damage output, even with 10K Power... its only saving grace and usability with Skank-Tank setup is that it can out last almost everything, and if it gets tunneled Force Cloak out, heal and return.

 

Assassin Darkness gets Steel Brick level tanky-ness in exchange for lower damage output - but the current output needs an upward rebalance to like a C- to help reduce the TTK metric vs other classes besides Juggernaut.

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