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You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch


Wayshuba

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My SWAG as to what the star difference between tier 3 (today's 224) and tier 0 (today's 208) will be around 5% before factoring set bonus. Set bonus might add another 5% to DPS/HPS. But I suspect they're going to de-emphasize the importance of having big numbers as a soft mitigation mechanism for the RNG. That way you can get your 6/6 set bonus across however many drops to max GC level and even if the armor plate is not BiS, your stats will be acceptable for highest tier content.

 

How much of the Endurance budget for a tank (or the Mastery budget for anyone else) comes from the plates in armor today? How much after 5.0?

 

They can't decrease the difference too much because that will either make HM too difficult or NiM too easy.

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They can't decrease the difference too much because that will either make HM too difficult or NiM too easy.

 

If they don't "adjust" those thresholds as part of the upscaling to 70 process. And we don't have any idea what their running ideas for the three "new" levels of difficulty (for story and Uprisings) are. Or what their "acceptable levels" of collateral damage to old content difficulty tiers are. Are HM EV and KP all that close to HM DF and DP? (Serious question, since I've not played any of them.)

 

New mechanics are going to be built for the primary benefit of other new mechanics, and the impact on prior mechanics is secondary. Not something to ignore, of course, but that's how the priorities will be set. The new stat and gear model isgoing to be built to work with the new 3 standard/veteran/master structure first, and then adjusted to work with the older content.

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If they don't "adjust" those thresholds as part of the upscaling to 70 process. And we don't have any idea what their running ideas for the three "new" levels of difficulty (for story and Uprisings) are. Or what their "acceptable levels" of collateral damage to old content difficulty tiers are. Are HM EV and KP all that close to HM DF and DP? (Serious question, since I've not played any of them.)

 

New mechanics are going to be built for the primary benefit of other new mechanics, and the impact on prior mechanics is secondary. Not something to ignore, of course, but that's how the priorities will be set. The new stat and gear model isgoing to be built to work with the new 3 standard/veteran/master structure first, and then adjusted to work with the older content.

 

Lol, they don't release new op in 2 years and you believe they'll bother adding/tweaking mechanics of old ops? Wish i had your optimism.

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Lol, they don't release new op in 2 years and you believe they'll bother adding/tweaking mechanics of old ops? Wish i had your optimism.

 

Since I'm pretty sure they announced they'd be rescaling the old ops, yeah, I think they will. At least a once-over-lightly. And I expect that the "difference between HM and NiM levels" isn't going to be as important to their new gear stat models as the difference between Standard/Veteran/Master difficulties.

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They can't decrease the difference too much because that will either make HM too difficult or NiM too easy.

 

It's difficult to say what will happen in 5.0 because we don't have the full context of it.

 

Here's a little theory for you if you're interested:

 

Let's say that classes will get nerfed in 5.0 This is not something new. That means it could be that level 70 simple is just a tiny bit better than the current 65. Perhaps they are not even going to need to scale HM and NiM at all then but leave them at their current difficulty or maybe just tune it up a little.

You see in 4.0 you don't need 224 gear to beat NiM. You can do this in 220 gear and hey add some crystals if you want to, to make it a bit easier.

That could mean there is no need for them to have big steps in gear between the different tiers as people will in theory be just a bit overgeared compared to now, making the harderst content more manageable for a bigger group of players.

 

I might expect to see posts in the near future of people beating NiM in tier 1 gear. You never know. I think a lot of raiders still haven't beaten a lot of NiM content or some of the HM bosses in Rav and ToS. It could be their strategy to make that easier so more people will manage those difficulty modes.

 

Just a theory of course but it could fit.

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It's difficult to say what will happen in 5.0 because we don't have the full context of it.

 

Here's a little theory for you if you're interested:

 

Let's say that classes will get nerfed in 5.0 This is not something new. That means it could be that level 70 simple is just a tiny bit better than the current 65. Perhaps they are not even going to need to scale HM and NiM at all then but leave them at their current difficulty or maybe just tune it up a little.

You see in 4.0 you don't need 224 gear to beat NiM. You can do this in 220 gear and hey add some crystals if you want to, to make it a bit easier.

That could mean there is no need for them to have big steps in gear between the different tiers as people will in theory be just a bit overgeared compared to now, making the harderst content more manageable for a bigger group of players.

 

I might expect to see posts in the near future of people beating NiM in tier 1 gear. You never know. I think a lot of raiders still haven't beaten a lot of NiM content or some of the HM bosses in Rav and ToS. It could be their strategy to make that easier so more people will manage those difficulty modes.

 

Just a theory of course but it could fit.

 

Yes, the most comfortable place to nerf content would be between expansions. Makes sense.

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Yes, the most comfortable place to nerf content would be between expansions. Makes sense.

 

Well it's what happened with 4.0 I suppose and with 3.0 I seem to remember them nerfing stat output as well. I seem to remember a lot of angry posters who where upset because they would have to gain new gear to get the same numbers they had before in starparse.

 

It doesn't mean automatically it will happen here as well but it's not unthinkable that this could be the case again in another shape or form I'd say.

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Well it's what happened with 4.0 I suppose and with 3.0 I seem to remember them nerfing stat output as well. I seem to remember a lot of angry posters who where upset because they would have to gain new gear to get the same numbers they had before in starparse.

 

It doesn't mean automatically it will happen here as well but it's not unthinkable that this could be the case again in another shape or form I'd say.

 

No, it seems reasonable. Most NiM capable raiders left already 2 years ago so they nerf it a little with each expand without people realizing it.

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So how is this an improvement for a PvP end-game player? Currently I can collect Warzone Commendations while levelling (from level 10) all the way up to level 65. Once I hit level 65, I'll normally have enough saved to get the end-game gear required for level 65 play (204+208 PvP set). With this new system, I can level from 10, all the way to 70 and have zero gear to use for end-game - because now I'll have to also level my command ranks once I hit 70.

 

Which part about what is being said to you, do you not understand?

 

How about the part where gear is going to drop all the way to 69? As far as PvP is concerned, it's finally going to what it should have been in the first place: If you can't compete, you have no business in there. What are they converting the existing PvP gear to? Did I miss that announcement? From 1 - 69 you're going to be able to obtain gear the same way everyone else is, buying it, or getting it as drops in other content. That you choose to cut yourself off from one avenue of obtaining gear isn't BW's fault, and it isn't my fault, and it isn't Joe Casual or Dick Raider's fault, it's your fault. The issue with "I only want to do (insert whatever here)" is "I".

 

IF I were to decide this morning that I wanted the best of the best PvP gear, where am I going to get it? I'm going to have to play an aspect of the game that I find pointless to obtain it. By your logic, this is a design flaw, they should just give it to me for entering a WZ, right? People complaining now about what could happen after 5.0 have all this time to get that same gear. They chose to limit themselves, and are now blaming others for their choice. Meanwhile, in the real world, the removal of Expertise means that the gear gap isn't going to be as big an issue as people are painting it up to be, unless, of course, they chose to play PvP only because they were constantly bolstered and will suck w/out it? PvP is fixing to be more about skill now, and PvPers are freaking the hell out. What's up with that?

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How about the part where gear is going to drop all the way to 69? As far as PvP is concerned, it's finally going to what it should have been in the first place: If you can't compete, you have no business in there. What are they converting the existing PvP gear to? Did I miss that announcement? From 1 - 69 you're going to be able to obtain gear the same way everyone else is, buying it, or getting it as drops in other content. That you choose to cut yourself off from one avenue of obtaining gear isn't BW's fault, and it isn't my fault, and it isn't Joe Casual or Dick Raider's fault, it's your fault. The issue with "I only want to do (insert whatever here)" is "I".

 

IF I were to decide this morning that I wanted the best of the best PvP gear, where am I going to get it? I'm going to have to play an aspect of the game that I find pointless to obtain it. By your logic, this is a design flaw, they should just give it to me for entering a WZ, right? People complaining now about what could happen after 5.0 have all this time to get that same gear. They chose to limit themselves, and are now blaming others for their choice. Meanwhile, in the real world, the removal of Expertise means that the gear gap isn't going to be as big an issue as people are painting it up to be, unless, of course, they chose to play PvP only because they were constantly bolstered and will suck w/out it? PvP is fixing to be more about skill now, and PvPers are freaking the hell out. What's up with that?

 

Yes, pvp is about skill, not gear, so either just give the gear or bolster everyone to some baseline stats.

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Yes, pvp is about skill, not gear, so either just give the gear or bolster everyone to some baseline stats.

 

It's a hard thing to explain to some people but gear is a pve element even if you use it in pvp. Unless people have exactly the same gear, it's not true pvp in my view. That's for example why I always preferred playing instagib in Unreal Tournament.

 

Of course in the new set up they can't just give you the gear because it would ruin PvE. They clearly don't want to deal with two lines of gear anymore, but I do agree with you that pvp shouldn't be about gear. Of course that goes agains the progression feeling some people want. Ah, you just can't win really ;)

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Yes, pvp is about skill, not gear, so either just give the gear or bolster everyone to some baseline stats.

 

Which defies the "about skill" doesn't it. "It's all about skill so long as I'm bolstered" isn't about skill, it's about bolster.

 

You know, that likely explains exactly why the PvP servers were ghost towns 4 years ago, doesn't it. No bolster in OW PvP, so no PvPers to speak of...

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Which defies the "about skill" doesn't it. "It's all about skill so long as I'm bolstered" isn't about skill, it's about bolster.

 

You know, that likely explains exactly why the PvP servers were ghost towns 4 years ago, doesn't it. No bolster in OW PvP, so no PvPers to speak of...

 

No, it's about skill because noone has gear advantages. owpvp is entirely different matter. it is not balanced by definition so people even geared their companions in pvp gear to have an advantage.

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Which is why they will remove Expertise, no ?

 

No, removing the expertise is just lazyness. Unless bolster stays and equalizes the stats he new system will create a huge imbalance between player with highest gear and a newbie.

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No, it's about skill because noone has gear advantages. owpvp is entirely different matter. it is not balanced by definition so people even geared their companions in pvp gear to have an advantage.

 

What, exactly, about PvP is supposed to be "balanced"? It is player vs player, and there can always be an imbalance between player skill levels, always. "But capped toons can gank me", while regrettable, is also part of OW PvP. In real PvP games, there is no bolster. You go in with what you have, and you either win, or you lose. Welcome to "real" PvP. Instead of complaining about it on the forums, I'd be busy getting my current end game gear set together, since it can be done in 3 hours, according to posts in some of these threads. Then you'll be ready for those "filthy raiders" that are suddenly going to be able to kill everyone in a WZ.

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No, removing the expertise is just lazyness. Unless bolster stays and equalizes the stats he new system will create a huge imbalance between player with highest gear and a newbie.

 

Actually, removing Expertise separates the wheat from the chaff amongst the PvP community. It'll be fun to see who falls off the Leaderboard because they were carried by groups to get the gear.

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No, removing the expertise is just lazyness. Unless bolster stays and equalizes the stats he new system will create a huge imbalance between player with highest gear and a newbie.

 

Or if the difference between tier 0 and tier 3 gear is minimal under the PvP combat model.

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What, exactly, about PvP is supposed to be "balanced"? It is player vs player, and there can always be an imbalance between player skill levels, always. "But capped toons can gank me", while regrettable, is also part of OW PvP. In real PvP games, there is no bolster. You go in with what you have, and you either win, or you lose. Welcome to "real" PvP. Instead of complaining about it on the forums, I'd be busy getting my current end game gear set together, since it can be done in 3 hours, according to posts in some of these threads. Then you'll be ready for those "filthy raiders" that are suddenly going to be able to kill everyone in a WZ.

 

As i said owpvp is entirely different story. An extreme example of of balanced pvp is chess. Or any rts, or fps. Most of the mobas are fairly well balanced too. In any mmo there can't be real balance unless the skills are actually the same and differ only in appearance, but for instance ranked in gw2 was played with entirely equalized sets so there was no gear difference.

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Actually, removing Expertise separates the wheat from the chaff amongst the PvP community. It'll be fun to see who falls off the Leaderboard because they were carried by groups to get the gear.

 

What carrying? You get minmaxed pvp gear in the current system by just leveling a toon through pvp.

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Unless bolster stays and equalizes the stats he new system will create a huge imbalance between player with highest gear and a newbie.

 

I guess you never played PvP with players that have expertise and don't have expertise, that was imbalance ...

Edited by KnightOfTython
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No, that was players who didn't care about pvp

 

It doesn't matter, technically it is still imbalance and that's why it's being removed.

Responsible for mechanics are publishers not the players.

 

Something you want to understand first before you talk about balancing.

Edited by KnightOfTython
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