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New Ossus decorations requiring premium materials

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
New Ossus decorations requiring premium materials

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
02.13.2019 , 10:01 AM | #11
They seem to be doing more and more to alienate non-Ops/group players. It's not a smart idea but they don't seem to be about "smart ideas" with a lot of this.

I'm not as fussed about the decos as I am the fact that non-group players have literally no way to gear up their toons with 258 mainhand/offhand weapons at all, but as others have said, gating decos behind group content is ridiculous.

Karameck's Avatar


Karameck
02.13.2019 , 10:10 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
They seem to be doing more and more to alienate non-Ops/group players. It's not a smart idea but they don't seem to be about "smart ideas" with a lot of this.

I'm not as fussed about the decos as I am the fact that non-group players have literally no way to gear up their toons with 258 mainhand/offhand weapons at all, but as others have said, gating decos behind group content is ridiculous.
They arenít trying to alienate you, they are trying to incentivize behaviors that will help the longevity of the game.

The things you want are not required in anyway to continue enjoying the game as you were previously, they are new additional bonuses for people engaging in group content which is essential for them to maintain a good population of if we want SWTOR to stick around. Not to mention, what would you need a 258 weapon for if youíre doing non-end game PvE?

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
02.13.2019 , 10:27 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
They arenít trying to alienate you, they are trying to incentivize behaviors that will help the longevity of the game.

The things you want are not required in anyway to continue enjoying the game as you were previously, they are new additional bonuses for people engaging in group content which is essential for them to maintain a good population of if we want SWTOR to stick around. Not to mention, what would you need a 258 weapon for if youíre doing non-end game PvE?
I am not personally arguing that 258 main- and off-hand should be obtainable without doing high-level group content, but I do think that putting so many decorations behind that wall when we already have an overabundance of the Ossus currency is a mistake. Of course some decorations already have an ops requirement, but in my opinion it's not as steep as this one, nor is it as many decorations tied to a single method of obtaining them, nor in the old cases of ops decorations does one have to choose between improving one's gear and obtaining a decoration.

In my opinion, the new decorations should also be purchasable with relics of Ossus. If a small number of the new decorations additionally required one masterwork crystal, I think that wouldn't be beyond the pale. I mean, bear in mind, for a balanced stronghold many people like to have several copies of some decorations. This could lead to the absurd situation of decorators needing longer playing high-level gear-orientated content to get the decorations they want than it takes for the highest-tier gear-seekers to get their gear.

At the moment I think Ossus is fairly well-populated and there are plenty of people looking to do the existing world bosses and the new one (including myself; I'm actually having fun with the existing bosses and looking forward to the queen when I get a chance). A lot of these groups are accustomed to a high-level group content focus, and will not necessarily even want people in their groups who are primarily decorators not as interested in ops or gearing, so their groups being "diluted" by such players isn't necessarily a plus for them.
|| Trask Ulgo 🡢 The Progenitor 🡢 Darth Malgus ||
Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
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~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~

Taurax's Avatar


Taurax
02.13.2019 , 10:51 AM | #14
How about this:
Decorations can be bought for EITHER:
**The current method, mon Crystals etc
**Make the Maximum Ossus crystals change from 1000 to 9999. You can turn in 9999 in exchange. Also remove the weekly cap, which anyone can obtain in one set of dailies.
Aljebra

*Problem solving to find solutions, then go random to cause chaos for the fun of it*

sauceemynx's Avatar


sauceemynx
02.13.2019 , 10:53 AM | #15
All the incentives in the world will not make me do group or PvP content. Ever. And I doubt I am alone, causing me to wonder how useful this type of incentive is. As I've said elsewhere, you can't make an introvert an extrovert. By all means, give the Ops people something for all their hard work, but let's not confuse that with trying to rope more people into a type of game play they will never embrace.

Finally, almost no one needs 258 gear. They just like having it. Nothing wrong with that.

Karameck's Avatar


Karameck
02.13.2019 , 10:59 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
I am not personally arguing that 258 main- and off-hand should be obtainable without doing high-level group content, but I do think that putting so many decorations behind that wall when we already have an overabundance of the Ossus currency is a mistake. Of course some decorations already have an ops requirement, but in my opinion it's not as steep as this one, nor is it as many decorations tied to a single method of obtaining them, nor in the old cases of ops decorations does one have to choose between improving one's gear and obtaining a decoration.

In my opinion, the new decorations should also be purchasable with relics of Ossus. If a small number of the new decorations additionally required one masterwork crystal, I think that wouldn't be beyond the pale. I mean, bear in mind, for a balanced stronghold many people like to have several copies of some decorations. This could lead to the absurd situation of decorators needing longer playing high-level gear-orientated content to get the decorations they want than it takes for the highest-tier gear-seekers to get their gear.

At the moment I think Ossus is fairly well-populated and there are plenty of people looking to do the existing world bosses and the new one (including myself; I'm actually having fun with the existing bosses and looking forward to the queen when I get a chance). A lot of these groups are accustomed to a high-level group content focus, and will not necessarily even want people in their groups who are primarily decorators not as interested in ops or gearing, so their groups being "diluted" by such players isn't necessarily a plus for them.
As previously stated I agree that including relics would have been preferable, and I also think the price tag is a little steep for most of those items.

As far as the number of items, Iíve got a mixed feeling on that. On the one hand seeing the grind it will take, and knowing Iíll likely have to choose between getting better gear or cute decos is painful, but I do appreciate the trend in increasing the quantity of decos made available to us, and we got a crazy big selection made available with Ossus Relics. Itís hard for me to be too upset when for the first time ever I feel like the team is actually giving us the variety of decos Iíve always hoped to see.

As far as Ossus being well-populated, it is at the moment, the issue isnít ďcan we keep it busy while itís still newĒ itís building a consistent population and implementing incentives that increase longevity. What Iím seeing is smart Dev choices based on my experience with both SWTOR and other MMOs.

I donít mean this in an antagonistic way, Iím speaking from personal experience, but I think people are confusing whatís good/fun for them personally at this moment with whatís good/fun for the game at large. I play both SWTOR and a couple other MMOs. For a long time I never did any end-game or PvP content. There were various reasons for this, but the two biggest were the aspects I enjoyed did not involve high skill combat (thus I was not good at it) and Iím a naturally high-anxiety person. Iíve always gravitated towards character creation, decorating, and crafting.

The idea of going out of my comfort zone and putting myself in a situation where strangers might yell at me or get frustrated because I wasnít ďgood enoughĒ was incredibly stressful. However, my love of decorating eventually made me take that chance and branch out. Iím not going to pretend that everyone has always been as nice or as patient as youíd want, but as anyone with anxiety can attest reality is never as bad as the story you weave stressing over it. I have continued to push myself to get better and more comfortable with group content with the sole intent of acquiring the decos/gear for purely aesthetic reasons. I will likely never hit the ranked lists, but Iíve become a more active member of the community vs. treating the game like a single player experience due to that incentive.

Thatís the point of these choices from the higher ups. Itís not that they have any animosity towards people who play the game differently, but they are forced by the nature of the business to try and do everything possible to maintain an active and engaged community for interactive, group content. You can tell from Queue times we still have a long ways to go on that, honestly I think SWTOR didnít push people to do group content enough previously (TBH probably the biggest mis-step of KOTFE/KOTET) which created such a large niche of people who treat the game as a solo experience. Itís not that those people donít matter, or that their way of playing isnít valid, but if the game is going to last, that canít be the play style thatís catered to. At the end of the day this game is an MMO, itís not only expected that group content would be prioritized and pushed, itís necessary for the game to thrive.

Noerra's Avatar


Noerra
02.13.2019 , 11:06 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by sauceemynx View Post
All the incentives in the world will not make me do group or PvP content. Ever. And I doubt I am alone, causing me to wonder how useful this type of incentive is. As I've said elsewhere, you can't make an introvert an extrovert. By all means, give the Ops people something for all their hard work, but let's not confuse that with trying to rope more people into a type of game play they will never embrace.

Finally, almost no one needs 258 gear. They just like having it. Nothing wrong with that.
Same for me, they are not incentives at all, they are just things i don't do. If i can't get the best gear, it's fine, i am used to it. But if every single new thing added having these "incentives", then i am out till there is content i can do again.

People who don't understand about solo playing in MMORPG's should watch this talk from BioWare Austin's Damion Schubert where he explains solo playing and it's different reasons and aspects very well. Actually everyone should watch it, it's really entertaining speach from a smart guy who knows what he is talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2l2ZxNhCSg

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
02.13.2019 , 12:05 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
Iíve always gravitated towards character creation, decorating, and crafting.

The idea of going out of my comfort zone and putting myself in a situation where strangers might yell at me or get frustrated because I wasnít ďgood enoughĒ was incredibly stressful. However, my love of decorating eventually made me take that chance and branch out. Iím not going to pretend that everyone has always been as nice or as patient as youíd want, but as anyone with anxiety can attest reality is never as bad as the story you weave stressing over it. I have continued to push myself to get better and more comfortable with group content with the sole intent of acquiring the decos/gear for purely aesthetic reasons. I will likely never hit the ranked lists, but Iíve become a more active member of the community vs. treating the game like a single player experience due to that incentive.
I appreciate you agreeing that it would be appropriate to move some of the cost of these items to relics of Ossus. Re. playstyle, I would have the same natural preferences as yourself and have made a similar effort to move outside my comfort zone - and I've improved in my playing as a result. For what it's worth, I also agree with you in being pleased by the volume of recent decorations (particularly a large number with the same aesthetic, helpful for decorating with a unified style).

My concern is not so much with any new decorations requiring group content as it is that so many require it. I appreciate your point about longevity, but there comes a time when people have enough mainhands and offhands for their entire legacy, and people who want to decorate their strongholds nicely with these new items could still be working away diligently long after that. Let's look at the numbers (apologies in advance for any typos or mistakes with adding).

To get one copy of each of the 14 new decorations costs a total of 3 monumental crystals, 29 masterwork crystals, and 1,000 unassembled components (which could be turned into one or two masterwork crystals). To get one 258 mainhand and one 258 offhand costs 4 monumental crystals and 10 masterwork crystals (or 14 if you need to buy 252s from which to upgrade). So far, it's looking cheaper to get good gear than these decorations. However, just as decorators often want more than one copy of a decoration, players have alts, so in both cases many people won't stop at one copy of each decoration or one MH/OH. Let's take a look at how much a decorator can buy for the same price as an entire legacy with a *basic*, non-convenient yet full mainhand/offhand loadout.

Here is the full list of costs for the new decorations: (cost given in monumental crystals / masterwork crystals / unassembled components)
Bioluminscent Mushrooms: 0/1/250
Broken Geonosian Egg Clump: 0/2/0
Cracked Geonosian Eggs: 0/2/0
Creeping Roots: 0/2/0
Geonosian Eggs: 0/2/0
Hanging Roots: 0/3/0
Large Stone Torch: 0/2/500
Memorial of the Three: 1/2/0
Ossan Jedi Memorial: 0/3/0
Ossan Temple Column: 0/2/500
Pile of Bones: 1/2/0
Royal Mucus(!): 0/1/250
Statue of the Forgotten Heroine: 1/2/0
Stone Torch: 0/2/0
TOTAL: 3/29/1,000 (or 3/31, looked at another way)

Here's the absolute minimum loadout for a full legacy of 258 mainhands and offhands (in cases where players don't mind frequently paying to rip mods from, for example, a tanking lightsaber to a tanking dualsaber, or from a DPS Force focus to a DPS tech generator).

Tank MH with hilt (lightsaber/dualsaber)
Tank OH with armoring (force/tech shield)
Tank MH with barrel (pistol / blaster rifle)
DPS/healing MH with hilt (lightsaber/dualsaber)
DPS OH with hilt (need a second lightsaber for sentinels / marauders)
DPS/healing OH with armoring (force focus / tech generator)
DPS/healing MH with barrel (pistol / cannon / sniper rifle / blaster rifle)
DPS/healing OH with barrel (scattergun / vibroknife / second blaster pistol for gunslingers / mercs)
Cost of each is 2/5 (or 7 if no 252s).
TOTAL: 16/40 (or 56 if no 252s)

I *think* that's everything (someone please tell me if I missed anything), if you don't care about credit annoyances? Just for the sake of argument, we'll examine this case even though plenty of people do care about credit annoyances, myself included. (Correspondingly, you might get people who would put DPS mods into tank shells - and who might do it because they feel tanks need more DPS, not to economize - so this is an attempt to visualize a middle-of-the-road full legacy loadout.)

Cost of all those items is 16 monumental crystals and 40 masterwork crystals (56 if there's a need to buy 252s in every case to upgrade). Let's assume the most generous exchange rate of 500 unassembled components to one masterwork crystal and treat 1k components as being functionally identical to 2 mw crystals, so we can add and subtract more easily. That means we're comparing 3/31 to 16/40(56).

For 16 monumentals and 40 masterworks, how many decorations can we buy? One full set of 14 decorations at a cost of 3/31 from 16/40 leaves a remainder of 13 monumentals and 9 masterworks. Depending on how we choose to spend that remainder (the currencies don't always cooperate with what we want), we could buy, for example (remembering that 500 components = 1mw crystal) as few as 3 Hanging Roots, or as many as 6 Bioluminscent Mushrooms. If our budget had the 16 extra masterwork crystals needed buy 252s as well - so a full legacy totally from scratch, with nothing to upgrade - then with our remainder of 13 monumentals and 25 masterworks we could buy, for example, as few as 8 Hanging Roots, or many as 16 Bioluminscent Mushrooms. So, depending on our budget, in addition to one copy of each of the 14 decorations, we could buy 3-16 more. Alternatively, if we don't care about unlocking all the decorations (and many decorating fans do care, myself included), we could just stock up on the cheapest, getting 26 Bioluminscent Mushrooms (or 37 if we needed to buy 252s). But that is a really niche case (sorry, mushroom fans!).

So... a full set of 258 mainhands and offhands, good for one's entire legacy... or 17-30 decorations (or as many as 37 in a niche so tiny I can't even believe I'm mentioning it). Is this fair? Is this providing the same kind of longevity that will keep gear-seekers and decorators doing this content for the same length of time?

(Of course, one could make different comparisons, say by including full sets of armour with 7-piece bonuses, which would certainly cost more, but I'm aiming to make a comparison that includes monumental crystals. Plus plenty of people have already made progress on their non-MH/OH 258s. And certainly none of this is to consider the plight of players like me who enjoy upgrading our gear and decorating, albeit the latter more than the former.)

EDIT: I made a miscalculation due to forgetting that the OH barrel can theoretically be shared between more classes/specs/items, so I just redid the equipment calculations and resulting decoration purchases to reflect that.
|| Trask Ulgo 🡢 The Progenitor 🡢 Darth Malgus ||
Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
More love for class companions, please.
~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
02.13.2019 , 03:16 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
They arenít trying to alienate you, they are trying to incentivize behaviors that will help the longevity of the game.

The things you want are not required in anyway to continue enjoying the game as you were previously, they are new additional bonuses for people engaging in group content which is essential for them to maintain a good population of if we want SWTOR to stick around. Not to mention, what would you need a 258 weapon for if youíre doing non-end game PvE?
There is not an incentive in the world that could compel me to play PvP or Ops. And SWTOR should know this does not work.

Oricon: players were upset about story ending in Ops, do not do Ops (or Oricon at all)
Iokath: players were upset about Op being added to mission log, asked for it to be able to be abandoned for more than a year until devs relented.
Pierce and 4x: players simply don't do AAs for them requiring PvP.
H4: Had to be retooled for solo play in Section X and Black Hole because nobody did them.
PvP stronghold: players wanted option to turn PvP off and guarantee it could not be activated by SH visitors.

By making less and less available to solo players they are squeezing us out and that does not contribute to longevity. Progression guilds are not enough to keep the lights on here. I can't speak for everyone but they really aren't giving solo/story players any reason at all to stick around right now.

And as to what players need, do you need achievements? Cosmetics? Those wings from the Oricon op? We all need things to shoot for. Plus difficulty has been increasing. Solo Nathema bolsters you to mastery of 84k for instance.

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
02.13.2019 , 05:20 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Progression guilds are not enough to keep the lights on here.
This is true, particularly given that a lot of progression players who left during their content drought never came back. I say this from experience as my mains on each side have been members of progression guilds since launch (even though I've never been much of a progression player - it's just that these were my first couple of guilds to which I was invited, and I kept my Pub and Imp mains in them for social reasons after getting to know the members). I've listened to many complaints over the years about lack of new, complex, engaging PvE endgame content. I've seen formerly passionate progression players finally lose heart and quit. The message of the day on one of my progression guilds says the guild is in hibernation until the new operation will be complete - but it's been complete for a while now, and no one's really come back, leaving the message of the day as a sad tombstone in limbo. So I absolutely want those progression players who've stayed - and those who've joined in the meantime - to get a nice steady release of content. They were neglected for a long time and I think they deserve updates. But I have to agree that - as far as I can tell - there aren't enough of them to keep the game afloat by themselves.

Now, that being said, I don't think that any particular group is currently as neglected as progression players were during KotFE/KotFE. Over the past year, there's been content for fans of PvE, PvP, story, decorating, and cosmetics. Now there hasn't been an avalanche of content for any one group, certainly, but there has been some. And as long as everyone keeps getting some, I think we can keep going. And, in my opinion, making these decorations less burdened by a massive requirement of materials from group content would help to keep things balanced.

Of course, some people have almost certainly already purchased some of the new decorations. If Bioware were to reassess the prices, I wouldn't want those early adopters to be punished. BW might refund premium materials to those who've already bought the decorations, taking into account how many of each decoration each player has unlocked. (Or, then again, they might not. Various bugs since 5.10 led to many of us not receiving our rewards of masterwork crystals in spite of completing the requisite content, but we have not been refunded those "lost" crystals.)
|| Trask Ulgo 🡢 The Progenitor 🡢 Darth Malgus ||
Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
More love for class companions, please.
~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~