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This is why we hate PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
This is why we hate PvP

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
08.19.2021 , 11:08 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by cryorage View Post
ok i have to be honnest im coming back after a several year break. currently re rolling because i cant remember wth i was remotely doing. So i get my sorc to 18 kit her out with the best gear i can manage (mostly from the mod vendor and a few from the black talon fp) and i decided to get the pvp intro quest done i got when i hit the fleet station. keep in mind im 18 with no clue wth I'm doing, hell im still trying to work out a decent leveling rotation when things require more than a two-three button combo.

So i que up get an arena my team all dps 2 sorc, a marauder, and i think an assassin maybe? think they had a staff. other team not sure but it was 3 dps and a tank one of the dps was a scoundrel. follow my team trying to support don't do very well despite being the last one standing both rounds. first round we got 1 down. second none. i could do nothing. it was very disappointing.

Second que wound up being hutball. that was when i really noticed the problem from the levels of my team i was one of the lowest members there i think there was one other in the teens the rest were 30+ and we got scaled up to 75. and that's the issue. go ahead scale me up to 75 but im only 18. higher level characters have more options, better builds, more abilities. i can't really compete with that. The really frustrating bit. that pvp intro quest that started this? yeah it requires a win. which feels impossible until im max level and geared.

Any way apologies for the long winded complaining just kinda needed to get that out.
scaling you up to 75 doesn't mean you're playing against other 75s. that's just bolster. if you are 18, then you are playing in the low bracket, which I think cuts off around 43. The relationship of your available skills is comparable to higher levels up to ~43. you were not playing against actual 70s players.

there was a time period of a month or two when BW did actually throw low players into matches against players in the 70s, and there was much uproar. BW is truly bad at this balance and organization/matchmaking thing. but the big issue here is that you don't quite understand bolster and seem to be confusing it with actually leveling you up.

fyi: it would be nice to level everyone up with full abilities like GW2, but since new/returning leveling players (e.g., you) don't know how to use all of their abilities yet, there's an argument to be made in letting them be acquired more naturally.

TL; DR: you weren't playing against full-on lvl 75 players. your defenses and dmg abilities were just jacked up to 75 so that they would be competitive with higher level players (up to ~43 when you're as low as 10).

there aren't enough players in the game to bracket 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, etc. anymore.

cryorage's Avatar


cryorage
08.19.2021 , 03:27 PM | #62
yeah i figured player numbers wouldn't' support that much of a bracket. I will also admit i was un aware of it only going up to 43ish. Also unsure on how much ability discrepancy there is between 10 and a 43 or even an 18 and 35 for that matter. Was just a bit of a nasty shock to get a lvl 10 beginner quest for pvp and then get thrown to the wolves, and in order to complete the quest you need to win? Kinda wish it was just play 3 matches get your reward. as it stands im utterly demoralized for pvp and have no plans to even touch it again till im leveled and geared.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
08.19.2021 , 04:23 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by cryorage View Post
yeah i figured player numbers wouldn't' support that much of a bracket. I will also admit i was un aware of it only going up to 43ish. Also unsure on how much ability discrepancy there is between 10 and a 43 or even an 18 and 35 for that matter. Was just a bit of a nasty shock to get a lvl 10 beginner quest for pvp and then get thrown to the wolves, and in order to complete the quest you need to win? Kinda wish it was just play 3 matches get your reward. as it stands im utterly demoralized for pvp and have no plans to even touch it again till im leveled and geared.
the quest made more sense when the brackets were only 10 levels each. that's true. there is a very significant disparity between a 10 and a 42 in terms of tool kit. they should not be in the same match together regardless of bolster. but it's not really that bad either. don't pvp until you're 20+. make sure you have a stun or mezz and a dcd. also make sure you've chosen your spec and picked up all of the abilities. a lot of players forget that....

the really horrible thing is that apparently bolster doesn't work right if you don't have anything in a slot, and relics, implants, and ear pieces are not common levels 10-29, and the pvp intro quest rewards those slot pieces to you. so that is a major procedural issue. then again, nothing about lowbies is really "major." and you can jump 5 levels just by turning in a couple quests. I recommend not pvping until 20+.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
08.19.2021 , 08:12 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
scaling you up to 75 doesn't mean you're playing against other 75s. that's just bolster. if you are 18, then you are playing in the low bracket, which I think cuts off around 43. The relationship of your available skills is comparable to higher levels up to ~43. you were not playing against actual 70s players.

there was a time period of a month or two when BW did actually throw low players into matches against players in the 70s, and there was much uproar. BW is truly bad at this balance and organization/matchmaking thing. but the big issue here is that you don't quite understand bolster and seem to be confusing it with actually leveling you up.

fyi: it would be nice to level everyone up with full abilities like GW2, but since new/returning leveling players (e.g., you) don't know how to use all of their abilities yet, there's an argument to be made in letting them be acquired more naturally.

TL; DR: you weren't playing against full-on lvl 75 players. your defenses and dmg abilities were just jacked up to 75 so that they would be competitive with higher level players (up to ~43 when you're as low as 10).

there aren't enough players in the game to bracket 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, etc. anymore.
Yeah, I agree with the GW2 comparison. That would be the better way to do it because then everyone would have access to the same abilities, utilities and gear.


I recently investigate the FFXIV pvp system to see if it is something I might be interested in playing. What I discovered is their class abilities change on the task bar to a pvp only setup.
It also looks like they lose a bunch of abilities they have for pve. Essentially the game has a seperate pve and pvp system and that way they can balance classes properly for pvp without it affecting pve balance.

And just like GW2, you can go to a seperate instance area before going into pvp that automatically changes your setup to pvp so you can look at the different abilities, etc. That way people aren’t dropped straight into pvp with no idea what the abilities are. They also have pvp training dummies in GW2 and FFXIV

This could be done in swtor as well and that would give people at lower lvls the opportunity to look at and test out abilities before going into pvp.
Then BioWare could get rid of lowbie and mid lvl pvp brackets. Then we could possibly have a reg pvp bracket for casuals and people to learn and a ranked objective bracket.
Do you want to be a better objective pvper?
Click here for a “How to PvP Guide”

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
08.19.2021 , 09:31 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Yeah, I agree with the GW2 comparison. That would be the better way to do it because then everyone would have access to the same abilities, utilities and gear.



Then BioWare could get rid of lowbie and mid lvl pvp brackets. Then we could possibly have a reg pvp bracket for casuals and people to learn and a ranked objective bracket.
i'm not arguing against it. I like the idea. but BW has always (against all reason) advocated for a gear grind for pvp. and now that everyone shares the same gear, pvp is locked into always having a gear grind.

Cease has already pointed out that the current gear grind is backwards. it's easy to get level 306 but hard to get set bonus and tactical. however, set bonus and tactical are by far the most decisive issues regarding gear balance (you could add augs and amps to that as well, which are outrageous money sinks if you don't play the GTN).

it would be cool in 7.0 if you could create a GW2-style loudout that only activates in pvp, and you could only adjust that loadout in a station on fleet (sell decos for it as well) just like the bolsterizer...for players to re-allocate their stats and play around with the "pvp loadout" for each class/spec.

but ultimately, gear, abilities, and set bonuses are inextricably tied together, plus BW's mind-numbing insistence that pvp should have a gear grind - it makes this pvp-only loadout thing a pipe dream.

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
08.20.2021 , 03:13 PM | #66
I'd just remove all rewards that matter from PVP.

No crafting mats in rewards, no massive tech frag rewards.

Your only incentive for PvP is to play PvP, the rewards should be minor and the only stat that matters is elo. That's why people play multiplayer shooters. You either are into it or you're not. Stop forcing people into the queue through seasons or conquest, I'm tired of getting queued with people who are terrible at it, and also don't care.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
08.20.2021 , 09:08 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
I'd just remove all rewards that matter from PVP.

No crafting mats in rewards, no massive tech frag rewards.

Your only incentive for PvP is to play PvP, the rewards should be minor and the only stat that matters is elo. That's why people play multiplayer shooters. You either are into it or you're not. Stop forcing people into the queue through seasons or conquest, I'm tired of getting queued with people who are terrible at it, and also don't care.
LoL, that would kill off the majority of the queue. All matches would end up being 4v4 with a small core group of people playing at only certain times of the day. You might get an hour or two of 8v8 during primetime, but this would also reduce as people get sick of playing the same 30 people.
Do you want to be a better objective pvper?
Click here for a “How to PvP Guide”

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
08.20.2021 , 10:16 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
LoL, that would kill off the majority of the queue. All matches would end up being 4v4 with a small core group of people playing at only certain times of the day. You might get an hour or two of 8v8 during primetime, but this would also reduce as people get sick of playing the same 30 people.
But we are playing the same people everyday. I keep queuing with/against the same sin in solos every week. There are even more than just that one, but it got to the point where I was like "ay there he is again".

if the majority of the queue in unranked are people who still basic attack whats the point? I feel nothing blowing up a team/getting blown up on a team that's just in it for the seasons/conquest. If the PVP is so bad that it's just for the heavy mat/fragments gain, why bother? It's not fun.

I don't think the PVP is that bad that people would not be interested in still playing it. Why not introduce an exclusive PvP reward bracket based on elo placement instead of lumping it in with PvE/Conquest/Seasons content? The rewards should be cosmetic/not anything marketable, thats the exact reason why people win-trade. To profit off the rewards.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
08.21.2021 , 12:51 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
I don't think the PVP is that bad that people would not be interested in still playing it.
Reg Pvp is indeed that bad because of poor balance, poor match making, deserter lock outs, win only completing dailies, players who only death match instead of trying to win, people who afk, people who don’t try, people who cheat, broken game engine performance, terrible Desync and bugs to name a few of the problems that have driven players away from pvp.

If you don’t have a lure to encourage non pvpers or casuals to pvp or try pvp, you will never replace the people BioWare seem intent to actively drive away from the game.

Under normal circumstances in a healthy game: For every 100 people who try pvp, you might get one who decides to stay. For every 10 people who leave the game or stop pvping, you may get 1 replacement. For every 10 replacement players you may get 1 adequate player who improves enough to attempt ranked. For every 10 ranked players who try ranked, 1 will stay.

But these aren’t normal circumstances. BioWare refuse to listen to “overall” player feed back. They only listen to the ranked players experiences and act on those. They don’t seem to realise that their neglect (cause that’s what it is) of the whole pvp eco system is what’s driven so many players away. And instead of addressing the problem by making faster and meaningful changes, they double down on dumb systems because they can’t admit they are wrong (ChrisS still argues or tries to justify systems for ranked players on discord and won’t listen to reg players points of view).

The pvp part of this game is a hollow shell of what it was during 3.x and 4.x era. It’s continuing degradation is because BioWare refuse to engage properly. Their mismanagement of pvp in this game since 5.x is astounding.
Do you want to be a better objective pvper?
Click here for a “How to PvP Guide”

Nickodemous's Avatar


Nickodemous
08.22.2021 , 08:14 PM | #70
This tread is still going on....bit of advice....if pvp bothers you that bad.....just don't do it!
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