Greetings!

I resubbed earlier than planned just to make this post. I need to state right away that I recognize opinions are valid even if I disagree with them, it's about what type of gameplay you enjoy and I respect that. However, it's very clear that many many individuals don't see that, they write arrogantly as if their opinion is the only one that matters and is 'obvious' and 'objective'.

I feel the need to come here and show it's not that black and white, it's not a bunch of devs doing crazy things and taking your abilities away - there are actually gamers out there that this caters to and I'm one of them. Once again this is opinion it's not meant to convince you or say you're wrong, I'm only posting so you will see there are those of us who feel differently. I've spent thousands on this game and I'm coming back because of these changes or overall the strategic goal behind the changes.

Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy.

Clearly so many of you see this as vital because you look at it in the context of current balance, you like to click lots of things and again i can respect that. I however want to be a Jedi, I want abilities to be flashy and support my class fantasy not just reduce damage taken by a % in a rotation vs a boss.

To me swtor has become incredibly bloated, I ended up playing solo almost exclusively in the end so I could play the way I wanted and not have to play whack a mole with buttons that do nothing except increase your numbers in the log. To me that's not gameplay. I'd rather choose skills I like and have fewer skills so my fantasy isn't tainted by things I don't want to look at.

To me it's more important that my Bounty hunter uses his pistol in a visual sense than that he keeps all his buttons for mathematical output. So if I ever play tank spec I use basic attack all the time even if it's inefficient because it looks so stupid if I don't. There are tons of players like me out there. Bit of a tangent but still.

I couldn't be more excited about the dev teams plans, I wish they would have gone down this path long ago, I may not have unsubbed if they had.

We don't all think alike guys, you will make better inroads giving feedback if you stop assuming that you're all correct and the devs are doing this for no reason.

From a business perspective I guess it's all about how many like the changes vs how many don't. I wouldn't mind an option where you get to keep all your buttons with stats as they are and those players like me get to make a choice and thus get a buffed version of the chosen skill. maybe by opting out of enure I could get a second or two added to my saber reflect. Maybe by option out on some BH skills I can get a buffed basic attack. Either way if they backtrack to much on what they're doing I'm not coming back to the game, and I'm a player too just like all of you but my voice isn't as represented because most like me won't resub just to post in the forums.

 

Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy.

 

 

You can already do that. In fact after 6.0 you can do every single content in the game with just using whatever abilities you find cool. The only place you need to use more abilities is the same content at artificially harder difficulty modes (HM, MM) , which means only the players who choose to do those. There is NOWHERE in this game that requires you to use Enure or Freezing Force. Your whole point is invalid.

You can already do that. In fact after 6.0 you can do every single content in the game with just using whatever abilities you find cool. The only place you need to use more abilities is the same content at artificially harder difficulty modes (HM, MM) , which means only the players who choose to do those. There is NOWHERE in this game that requires you to use Enure or Freezing Force. Your whole point is invalid.

I don't think my point is invalid but I hear what you're saying and that's basically what I'm doing but have to do it solo, no one tolerates that approach in groups. I'd also like to kill stuff faster. Playing suboptimally will mean you feel less powerful and with many specs the gap between whack a mole 20 abilities and fun is just too wide.

SWTOR has 3 difficulties in group content: Story, Veteran, and Master

 

On Story mode you can just press 111111111111 and clear everything. If people don't "tolerate" that then they're bad players. This doesn't justify taking away abilities from people who actually like using them.

 

I'm like you, I like to just use abilities I find cool instead of just what is "optimal" or whatever. But this update is taking away abilities I like to use.

You can do that without death but not without everything taking ages. And again, it's a tradeoff, what players do you cater to in the end. i'm saying there is a player they are catering to, me, doesn't make either side wrong or right. From a business perspective is will more people like it vs not, a lot of dinosaurs here and they need to understand they are not the be all end all of this game.

No it's not a trade-off at all. They already give people who want to use a few abilities, a way to clear all the content in the game. They also give players who like using more abilities, more difficult versions of the same content.

Way too oversimplified. This may apply to defensive cooldowns specifically but the rotations are a mess so it's not just skip ability x, because it breaks the whole rotation and you're left with almost no output. In the end I'm still a gamer, I'll use multiple buttons I don't like because it has better outcomes, I'd rather get those outcomes with a rotation that is tighter and that I enjoy. I'd rather have saber reflect with more impact than have to weave in enure.

I'd also hope these changes will bring more options for the core rotation, something that didn't exist at all before.

That's the point though. Players have different preferences, and current long-time swtor players are used to the gameplay in SWTOR as it is now. Gameplay that has not radically changed in years.

I don't know what bioware is actually trying to do, but if they are trying to make changes that attract players who like FPS, reticule targetting, rapid apm games ... well I don't like the gameplay of FPS, reticule targetting, console type games.

I don't play those other types of MMOs, I play swtor. I like swtor as it is because being good at a class comes down to more than having fast reflexes and pure apm. You need to do more than mash a handful of keys as fast as you can, you also need to know what keys to hit in what order and when to break off standard rotations and do things like off-heal, off-dps, cc, interrupt, and use a dcd.

Currently you can become decent at a class by only using the main abilities in your rotation. To be really good at a class takes bit more time and practice. For story content you never need to learn more than the bare bones of a class, so there is no need to simplify.

It is possible that all these changes will make swtor more attractive to some people. It is also possible that the change will make the game unfun for some players. We haven't seen the final product yet, but what we have seen is not encouraging to me.

So far what I've seen on the PTS is not making SWTOR more attractive to ME. I really don't care how popular SWTOR gets if I am no longer playing it.

That's the point though. Players have different preferences, and current long-time swtor players are used to the gameplay in SWTOR as it is now. Gameplay that has not radically changed in years.

 

I don't know what bioware is actually trying to do, but if they are trying to make changes that attract players who like FPS, reticule targetting, rapid apm games ... well I don't like the gameplay of FPS, reticule targetting, console type games.

 

I don't play those other types of MMOs, I play swtor. I like swtor as it is because being good at a class comes down to more than having fast reflexes and pure apm. You need to do more than mash a handful of keys as fast as you can, you also need to know what keys to hit in what order and when to break off standard rotations and do things like off-heal, off-dps, cc, interrupt, and use a dcd.

 

Currently you can become decent at a class by only using the main abilities in your rotation. To be really good at a class takes bit more time and practice. For story content you never need to learn more than the bare bones of a class, so there is no need to simplify.

 

It is possible that all these changes will make swtor more attractive to some people. It is also possible that the change will make the game unfun for some players. We haven't seen the final product yet, but what we have seen is not encouraging to me.

 

So far what I've seen on the PTS is not making SWTOR more attractive to ME. I really don't care how popular SWTOR gets if I am no longer playing it.

Completely fair. Only thing I will say is invoking rapid FPS etc is a strawman, it's still total classic tab targeting as far as I can see.

You're on point. By trying to please everyone they may please no one. Some of us like the old way and some a newer way, - I made this post because I believe the forum is biased toward one kind of player, the old school don't like change player.

Way too oversimplified. This may apply to defensive cooldowns specifically but the rotations are a mess so it's not just skip ability x, because it breaks the whole rotation and you're left with almost no output. In the end I'm still a gamer, I'll use multiple buttons I don't like because it has better outcomes, I'd rather get those outcomes with a rotation that is tighter and that I enjoy. I'd rather have saber reflect with more impact than have to weave in enure.

 

I'd also hope these changes will bring more options for the core rotation, something that didn't exist at all before.

They aren't changing rotations at all so far.

All that's happening is abilities that provided utility or were situational are being made choices, alongside various passives, such that players will end up with a net loss, and the losses are often things that were used in non-story parts of the game or by casual players that knew how to use them but did not necessarily need them in the content they played, i.e. animations that looked cool and were fun to use.

It doesn't seem like you've read over what's being done with the Knight specs or tried them out on the PTS. If you did, your post doesn't make sense.

An ability like Awe, for example, isn't part of anyone's damage rotation. You aren't pressing it to put up numbers. It's useful situationally in PVE, in solo content like heroics or chapters as well as in groups, looks cool, and fits the "fantasy" of using the Force, to use your term. It helps in PVP too, sometimes for objectives, sometimes to stay alive.

Is Force Camouflage an extra button that's needed for putting up numbers? No - it's a threat drop when you pull threat off a tank and sometimes a cleanse, and for solo players can be helpful to bypass mobs. It also makes the Sentinel/Marauder unique from other classes.

Transcendence? I use this in all content, whether leveling, in FPs, Ops, PVP, just to move faster. It looks neat too, and, again, to use your phrase, fits the fantasy of a Jedi Knight in that respect. For most players, I'd think it's a QoL ability that isn't available to other classes, allowing you to speed forward every 30 seconds or when necessary.

Force Kick? It's the Knight interrupt ability. I don't think BW has determined how interrupts will be handled definitively, but if we lose the ability in favor of something else, even a generic interrupt for all classes, Knights won't kick anymore. Again, that takes away from the feel of the Knight class, and removes an animation that looks good.

I could go on, but you get the idea. You'll still be pressing all the same buttons to do the amount of damage you'd like, as rotations aren't changing. Abilities around rotations are, many of which have been in the game since 1.x, and often add to or even are integral parts of a particular spec's identity. These abilities also have specific value attached to their use if playing anything outside the basic story content, which has been so easy since 4.0 your companion can often kill everything for you, even class story bosses.

In short, nothing about rotations will be "tighter", based on what's been presented so far. Folks don't agree with the changes being made due to being forced to choose basic abilities that enhance classes and make them unique, in addition to being part of how gameplay works for any content that still requires a person to actually use their character to complete it well (Vet or MM FPs, Ops, PVP, Vet/MM Chapters, Eternal Championship, and other areas of the game).

As mentioned plenty of times in other threads, it was always possible to keep ability bars clear of abilities you don't like or need, because of what you as a player prefer. SWTOR was my first MMO, the launch game era was much more difficult generally for newer players, but I never thought it was complicated or "too much". The worst I'd have to do is look up MMO slang/terms on google, or read over tooltips when a new ability was gained. On the other hand, when abilities are taken out of the game, or walled off behind choices presented as supposedly allowing for greater player agency, people can't somehow bring them back, nor do classes that were designed with a lot of heart, thought, and testing retain their feel when abilities unique to those specific advanced classes are no longer always at a player's disposal.

This thread sounds like a BioWare plant and not a real player. Sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s the way the original and subsequent posts comes across.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has even tested on the pts or plays a sentinel or guardian. So how would they even know if those abilities are boring or useful if they don’t play it.

Honestly, it sounds like a PR person trying to spin the story for the devs because they are losing the PR war with these changes.

A quick search of posting history supports my theory.

They aren't changing rotations at all so far.

 

All that's happening is abilities that provided utility or were situational are being made choices, alongside various passives, such that players will end up with a net loss, and the losses are often things that were used in non-story parts of the game or by casual players that knew how to use them but did not necessarily need them in the content they played, i.e. animations that looked cool and were fun to use.

 

It doesn't seem like you've read over what's being done with the Knight specs or tried them out on the PTS. If you did, your post doesn't make sense.

 

An ability like Awe, for example, isn't part of anyone's damage rotation. You aren't pressing it to put up numbers. It's useful situationally in PVE, in solo content like heroics or chapters as well as in groups, looks cool, and fits the "fantasy" of using the Force, to use your term. It helps in PVP too, sometimes for objectives, sometimes to stay alive.

 

Is Force Camouflage an extra button that's needed for putting up numbers? No - it's a threat drop when you pull threat off a tank and sometimes a cleanse, and for solo players can be helpful to bypass mobs. It also makes the Sentinel/Marauder unique from other classes.

 

Transcendence? I use this in all content, whether leveling, in FPs, Ops, PVP, just to move faster. It looks neat too, and, again, to use your phrase, fits the fantasy of a Jedi Knight in that respect. For most players, I'd think it's a QoL ability that isn't available to other classes, allowing you to speed forward every 30 seconds or when necessary.

 

Force Kick? It's the Knight interrupt ability. I don't think BW has determined how interrupts will be handled definitively, but if we lose the ability in favor of something else, even a generic interrupt for all classes, Knights won't kick anymore. Again, that takes away from the feel of the Knight class, and removes an animation that looks good.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea. You'll still be pressing all the same buttons to do the amount of damage you'd like, as rotations aren't changing. Abilities around rotations are, many of which have been in the game since 1.x, and often add to or even are integral parts of a particular spec's identity. These abilities also have specific value attached to their use if playing anything outside the basic story content, which has been so easy since 4.0 your companion can often kill everything for you, even class story bosses.

 

In short, nothing about rotations will be "tighter", based on what's been presented so far. Folks don't agree with the changes being made due to being forced to choose basic abilities that enhance classes and make them unique, in addition to being part of how gameplay works for any content that still requires a person to actually use their character to complete it well (Vet or MM FPs, Ops, PVP, Vet/MM Chapters, Eternal Championship, and other areas of the game).

 

As mentioned plenty of times in other threads, it was always possible to keep ability bars clear of abilities you don't like or need, because of what you as a player prefer. SWTOR was my first MMO, the launch game era was much more difficult generally for newer players, but I never thought it was complicated or "too much". The worst I'd have to do is look up MMO slang/terms on google, or read over tooltips when a new ability was gained. On the other hand, when abilities are taken out of the game, or walled off behind choices presented as supposedly allowing for greater player agency, people can't somehow bring them back, nor do classes that were designed with a lot of heart, thought, and testing retain their feel when abilities unique to those specific advanced classes are no longer always at a player's disposal.

I only based this post around the complaints I've seen, your is the first I personally agree with and understand more now. If they prune reactive abilities like kick that's silly compared to some of the others. But your post does overall contradict some stuff I've seen so i guess I'll have to see for myself by logging in.

Would be hilarious if they left all the bloat but took inconsequential abilities out.

No offense alucinorm, but you sound like you're incredibly far removed from the current state of this game. It shouldn't be difficult for you to understand that the abilities that aren't important to you are absolutely crucial to other people who indulge in more difficult content.

They add complexity to the game that you so readily dismiss because it isn't something that you care to indulge in. But there in lies the kicker. As the game is right now you can choose not to use certain abilities and coast through the SWTOR experience. You have a choice.

With the changes that have been released on the PTS there is no choice for others who enjoy complexity to continue playing at a high level. Players stand to be divested of meaningful choices, and you're fine with it because you want to be rewarded with the same performance as everyone else, but while doing less work.

That sounds a bit entitled don't you think?

 

Would be hilarious if they left all the bloat

That's actually the problem. Not ability pruning itself, but WHAT they are choosing to remove, and what they are keeping. It's a bit baffling, and I'm not sure what Bioware is actually trying to do.

I encourage everyone to check out the PTS and see what's going on. Do that, and then decide if you like what 7.0 is shaping up to be, or not.

This thread sounds like a BioWare plant and not a real player. Sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s the way the original and subsequent posts comes across.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has even tested on the pts or plays a sentinel or guardian. So how would they even know if those abilities are boring or useful if they don’t play it.

Honestly, it sounds like a PR person trying to spin the story for the devs because they are losing the PR war with these changes.

A quick search of posting history supports my theory.

I've noticed that with a couple of the people defending the nerfs. I didn't look up this guy but two of the others just started posting two weeks ago (or less). It goes along with BW paying twitch people to play their game; for some games it's been better and cheaper than commercials. Money well spent I guess.

I've noticed that with a couple of the people defending the nerfs. I didn't look up this guy but two of the others just started posting two weeks ago (or less). It goes along with BW paying twitch people to play their game; for some games it's been better and cheaper than commercials. Money well spent I guess.

LoL, except said twitch players don’t even take the time to learn a proper rotation or gear and then complain they have too many buttons to press and TTK is too high. Then they up and leave the game after complaining about it.

Money would be better spent on real commercials and content development instead of pandering to these twitch streamers who won’t stick around once their next pay check comes along.

There are 3 forum accounts so far that I’ve been tracking like this and the syntax is nearly the same. So is the lack of understanding of the games basics. So I’m going to say they’re probably the same person at Bioware using all 3 accounts to try and change the narrative.

Their arguments and points are superficial at best and a hard poke by someone who understands the game is all it takes to expose them. Try it and you’ll see what I mean,

I'll respond more in depth later. But yes this does not sound like a real post from a real person. You claim to be a gamer and your complaint is its too boring to do a thing because it violates class fantasy... mkay.

So freezing force isnt rotational. It's conditional. I dont even play jugg and understand how it works. It's an extra ability rhat helps mitigate distance from a kiting target and also to bridge gaps transitioning to a target.

Its like that smaller screwdriver you keep in your toolbox. Sure you can say its unneccessary, and you can just use the bigger one. But the bigger one doesnt work as well and can strip the screw and wreck the project.

This is how a lot of "superfluous" abilities are. It actually astounded me that they took saber throw away because you have to understand very little about the game to not realize a ranged attack on a melee is super important to maintaining uptime and getting to and from a target.

This isnt balanceable, period, because for it not to be a problem all bosses would have to be completely stationary, all of the time.

As for enure? That choice is astounding as well. It basically heals to full if under any kind of sustained damage. Its why the thing without good AOE dr has any shot of surviving most content. Like its a super critical ability and i know thia and i dont even play jugg, it's just because i understand how the game works.

What they are doing to sentinel is equally as horrific to me as most people see it. These changes wont do anything but anger more people.

And it wont help casuals, that's nonsense. Because the lower your bar for the game is, the lower the bar for people complaining also is. And if you allow that cycle to perpetuate, you literally just end up devolving your game to pong because the next casual will just say it's too hard.

No offense alucinorm, but you sound like you're incredibly far removed from the current state of this game. It shouldn't be difficult for you to understand that the abilities that aren't important to you are absolutely crucial to other people who indulge in more difficult content.

 

They add complexity to the game that you so readily dismiss because it isn't something that you care to indulge in. But there in lies the kicker. As the game is right now you can choose not to use certain abilities and coast through the SWTOR experience. You have a choice.

 

With the changes that have been released on the PTS there is no choice for others who enjoy complexity to continue playing at a high level. Players stand to be divested of meaningful choices, and you're fine with it because you want to be rewarded with the same performance as everyone else, but while doing less work.

 

That sounds a bit entitled don't you think?

I don't see how you can disagree with this post unless you fabricate some fake excuse. Dyne has a clear understanding of SWTOR's fundamentals but most importantly games in general. When you start dumbing down the gameplay, the line between low-level and high-level gets very blurry. The complexity and choice of abilities is one reason why I love this game because it caters to every possible type of MMO gamer: the casual, mid, and hardcore. Once you prune abilities, the hardcore is forced to lower their standards to less skilled players for no apparent reason. If they enjoy playing the game that way, why should they be punished? It's important to understand this concept OP and BioWare before making rational decisions that can lead to losing the game, community, and stories that were built over a decade of hard work unnecessarily.

If we are talking Star-Warsiness, or how the class feels, I kind of expect a Sentinel to be a glass cannon. I expect that a Guardian, conversely, will hit less hard but will have the stamina to take a lot in return, and not just in tank spec. For me, its the defensive cooldowns that help distinguish the playstyle of a guardian from the playstyle of a sentinel. Furthermore, we lack the mobility and dps of VG/PT and we lack some of the utility of Shadow/Assassin tanks. Defense/Immortal is characterized by the nice array of survival-oriented DCDs. We don't have the "ignore everything" cooldown of Resilience/Shroud but we can take a beating. As I said in my main feedback on Guardian, its the DCDs that define the class, both in terms of the Defense Guardian from other tanks, and in terms of the Vigilance Guardian compared to Serenity Shadow or Watchman Sentinel.

As had been well documented, the defensive cooldown "creep," if you want to call it that, is not the Guardian's fault, since most of theirs existed before 2.0.

In my opinion, the problem is that the developers have us testing this in a very narrow fashion. Speaking about myself, I come from the perspective of a casual raider and casual pvp'er. I don't really do ranked pvp or hard mode content, but I don't mind pushing myself out of my comfort zone and doing all types of content when the opportunity presents itself. So, when I am out in the wilds of Onderon, testing the gameplay of my defense or vigilance guardian on PTS, and trying to compare it to LIVE, I am acutely aware that these changes are going to have significant impacts in the harder echelons of content that I do, solo or not. We're being asked to test if things feel "fine" in content that requires a minimum amount of attention and skill. So, my response to Bioware if the Guardian feels "ok" is, "I guess so?" I mean, that's not a ringing endorsement. I can live without an interrupt or stun breaker doing Onderon dailies, but that's hardly my expectation in harder content. I can live without all three of my key defensive cooldowns fighting Big Baan, but not Izax or in pvp.

Look, I'm not going to unsub because they took away some random ability, like Riposte for non-Defense guardians, where it seems to interfere with the Vigilance rotation instead of being fluid with it like in Defense. Challenging Call as a threat drop for dps could be pruned, for example, if threat reduction could be incorporated into other rotational abilities. I think its lousy that they remove the one new ability from 6.0 one expansion later from Guardians, but I don't need it as a Defense Guardian. DotF doesn't proc enough in a tank spec for me to really notice it building charges of Force Clarity. But it makes a huge difference in Vigilance, and Force Clarity's absence in the Vigilance spec was very noticeable for me. Is the intention for Force Clarity to be Sentinel only, and a choice at that?

I'm not a sentinel/mara main by any means, and I have a lot of buttons to press as a Concentration Sentinel/Fury Marauder, but if the damage of those buttons could be incorporated into other abilities I'm not sure I'd cry over their loss. There is certainly consolidation that can and should happen, especially incorporating some utilities into passives. And, I'm willing to forgive Bioware for the oversight of the missing interrupts etc this round, even though they hedged and said they could still take them away later.

But by incorporating the AoE slow (which wasn't working first round) of FF into Blade Storm, they really missed the point of why Freezing Force is actually used by Guardians. I guess I don't mind, on paper, having to decide between powerful abilities or DCD's in general, but I think they chose the wrong advanced class to chop first, because as I said above its the DCDs that define Guardian.

Anyway, I think its clear that ability pruning is the future of the game, with forced choices between DCDs and mobility skills. The developers have clearly not had the time to update set bonuses or fix level lock so that we can test the content we really need to test. The whole thing seems rushed and incomplete and that's because it is. I don't mind them asking feedback but I don't think they should be surprised or offended when its constructively negative. I'm not happy about choosing between a parachute or not as I free fall out of the metaphorical plane. But its going to be impossible to judge that without knowing that my healers are going to matter more, and that they will be able to keep me up through the damage spikes I can't absorb any more because I lost DCDs. Its going to be impossible to judge that without knowing how much the other classes are getting nerfed, because in pvp, since tank stats don't really matter, the only thing that does are my DCD's. Is that going to change? I mean, these are all fair questions and while I realize the developers cannot answer them now, they better be ready to answer them before December.

I've noticed that with a couple of the people defending the nerfs. I didn't look up this guy but two of the others just started posting two weeks ago (or less). It goes along with BW paying twitch people to play their game; for some games it's been better and cheaper than commercials. Money well spent I guess.

To be fair, I also have no post history prior to these changes and I am against them. I got into the forums purely because the change is so ridiculously, horrendously bad I had to say something.

To be fair, I also have no post history prior to these changes and I am against them. I got into the forums purely because the change is so ridiculously, horrendously bad I had to say something.

It’s not about posting history as such. It’s the content of the posts that gives them away. Then when you poke their posts their logic crumbles because they don’t actually know what they’re talking about.

This thread sounds like a BioWare plant and not a real player. Sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s the way the original and subsequent posts comes across.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has even tested on the pts or plays a sentinel or guardian. So how would they even know if those abilities are boring or useful if they don’t play it.

Honestly, it sounds like a PR person trying to spin the story for the devs because they are losing the PR war with these changes.

A quick search of posting history supports my theory.

My first impression, exactly. Then my second and third impressions as well. Not just a White knight, but a plant.

Gotta admit the number of plants is bigger this time. They tend to come out of their little holes everytime BW makes a horrid decision (like with them combat styles) and start creating little noises in favor of the changes.

There is not much to say about the topic that hasnt been said already and probably nothing will matter at the end (laughable way to start the 10 year anni), but i will say this though - simplifying the game to the point only some DPS abilities are left is the worst....we are here to play an MMO not Overwatch...if I wanted to play FPS games where I do dps only here and there i would have gone to them.

Gotta admit the number of plants is bigger this time.

They are definitely multiplying across multiple threads since we started to call them on it a few days ago.