indeed- they became more moderate to the wrong classes as usual. they let the nerf hammer down on classes which needed buffs not nerfs and let the cheese classes (conc ops/mercs) get away nearly unscathered.

Regardless what they may be doing to other classes these cheese classes needed the treatment juggs got in the badest way....off course mercs keep defending their classes thinking they are balanced which is juast not true-they are broken as **** and will be even more broken in 7.0 considering the treatment other classes got.there is no valid second opinion on that...

U keep sayinf merc is "broken af"...I wonder why u say that. Bcos they have dcds that works only against direct dmg? Or maybe bcos they have,apart from the dcds, mid tier dmg? Maybe bcos they are the ranged class that melees jump to easier, since they dont have the immunity to leap and controls of snipers,and dont have the same mobility than sorcs,right? I mean,mercs are far from being a bad class,but they are far from being a broken class either. If we had top tier dps,plus top tier survivability(like concealment ops),then I would agree with u. But we have only our dcds to compete. Which need to be used wisely,or they are useless,since they dont offer full immunity to any type of dmg. U want to take away the only thing that makes mercs good and playable,and is part of the class playstyle,and give nothing in return? Sry that bw is destroying ur fav,class,but try to work on it and ask em to fix ur class,and not nerf a class that is already balanced.We also lost a good amount of control ,immunity to slow and mobility to mext patch,that together with the aoe mitigation dcd. Its enought.

U keep sayinf merc is "broken af"...I wonder why u say that. Bcos they have dcds that works only against direct dmg? Or maybe bcos they have,apart from the dcds, mid tier dmg? Maybe bcos they are the ranged class that melees jump to easier, since they dont have the immunity to leap and controls of snipers,and dont have the same mobility than sorcs,right? I mean,mercs are far from being a bad class,but they are far from being a broken class either. If we had top tier dps,plus top tier survivability(like concealment ops),then I would agree with u. But we have only our dcds to compete. Which need to be used wisely,or they are useless,since they dont offer full immunity to any type of dmg. U want to take away the only thing that makes mercs good and playable,and is part of the class playstyle,and give nothing in return? Sry that bw is destroying ur fav,class,but try to work on it and ask em to fix ur class,and not nerf a class that is already balanced. Plus u lost a good amount of control ,immunity to slow and mobility to mext patch,that together with the aoe mitigation dcd. Its enought.

The sad part is that he, and all the rest of them bashing it, know this.

They know what Mercs were like before the DCDs, probably as well as those who play mercs, we were always target #1 free kills.

Again, they know this, or at least should, so what the real argument being made here?

This is one of the most asinine comments I've ever read.

He isnt wrong at least in terms of playerbases often acting like children, even if the devs have a great, logical and good reason to take something away, there will always be people who complain because they found comfort in the status quo and thus are now attached to it, and any changes that harm the status quo hurts them even when done for good reasons.

Devs arent gods obviously, they are often detached from player experiences unless they play on the same level and area so they can be blind in some areas.

I am not sure why the idea of pruning some merc dcd is so scary, considering what they did to many classes where now they have fewer dcds or major vital skills are in the same row as other vital skills so they can only choose one, mercs getting out without major losses is not balanced.

I actually support the new system because I like choices between impactful skills, I want to choose to enhance my strengths for example instead of getting some strong utility that would make my weaknesses a lot less visible. And like previously mentioned no matter what this change would cause an uproar since you are taking things away.

My issue is when many classes lost a lot of vital skills or are now a choice between other vital skills, Mercs have not lost anything truly major that they heavily depend on, still have rocket out, still have 3 dcds and their damage is nowhere near as bad to justify 3 dcds which arent bad when used by a bad player, but if a good player uses them wisely as well as the rest of their toolkit to cause enough delay the first one is up again by the time the 3rd health bar is down, and just remember that throughout all that time the merc's enemy is also using their far fewer cds to survive and will run out first, it isnt like mercs are fighting a raid boss in pvp, especially without healers, the damage they can dish out without dying due to their dcds is huge in comparison to someone who has to keep running away to even survive because you cant stand there tickling them with dots and aoes while they are going full 100% damage on you, and its not like their dcds are short enough to be taken care in a single stun and they have 3 as well.

You cant remove a ton of vital skills from other classes and leave some others mostly the same, that is simply gonna worsen the balance we currently have.

He isnt wrong at least in terms of playerbases often acting like children, even if the devs have a great, logical and good reason to take something away, there will always be people who complain because they found comfort in the status quo and thus are now attached to it, and any changes that harm the status quo hurts them even when done for good reasons.

 

Devs arent gods obviously, they are often detached from player experiences unless they play on the same level and area so they can be blind in some areas.

 

I am not sure why the idea of pruning some merc dcd is so scary, considering what they did to many classes where now they have fewer dcds or major vital skills are in the same row as other vital skills so they can only choose one, mercs getting out without major losses is not balanced.

 

I actually support the new system because I like choices between impactful skills, I want to choose to enhance my strengths for example instead of getting some strong utility that would make my weaknesses a lot less visible. And like previously mentioned no matter what this change would cause an uproar since you are taking things away.

 

My issue is when many classes lost a lot of vital skills or are now a choice between other vital skills, Mercs have not lost anything truly major that they heavily depend on, still have rocket out, still have 3 dcds and their damage is nowhere near as bad to justify 3 dcds which arent bad when used by a bad player, but if a good player uses them wisely as well as the rest of their toolkit to cause enough delay the first one is up again by the time the 3rd health bar is down, and just remember that throughout all that time the merc's enemy is also using their far fewer cds to survive and will run out first, it isnt like mercs are fighting a raid boss in pvp, especially without healers, the damage they can dish out without dying due to their dcds is huge in comparison to someone who has to keep running away to even survive because you cant stand there tickling them with dots and aoes while they are going full 100% damage on you, and its not like their dcds are short enough to be taken care in a single stun and they have 3 as well.

 

You cant remove a ton of vital skills from other classes and leave some others mostly the same, that is simply gonna worsen the balance we currently have.

We lost our passive dcd to mitigate 30% dmg while stunned and from aoe atks.We also lost our only hard stun,and our move against slow,root,push and pull. This plus the fact that mercs have lower dps than mara,pt,sorc,sniper,op, and in some situations lower than juggs and sins,makes our dcds more important than ever,since its goin to be way easier to global and stunlock mercs now,and we'll get alot more dmg from aoe atks. If u take one dcd from us,mercs goin to be easy targets. If u really need devs to take one of our dcds,fine...give us our hydraulic back and more dps. Than I'll be ok with the change.

What ppl are failling to understand is that it is our playstyle. Its like asking for sorcs to lose mobility,stealthers to lose invisibility,pt and sniper to lose their big bursts ... if u really want us to lose our signature playstyle, which is the survivability, then we need more dps in order to compete.

What I find really funny is that some ppl complaining about mercs dcds actualy play skank juggs. I mean..The lvl of hypocrisy lol.

The sad part is that he, and all the rest of them bashing it, know this.

They know what Mercs were like before the DCDs, probably as well as those who play mercs, we were always target #1 free kills.

Again, they know this, or at least should, so what the real argument being made here?

Yea,I see. I really dont get all the hate on merc dcd. I kill mercs so easily when Im on my sniper,sin or jugg.Cos mercs wont outdmg u,so all u need to know is when and how to hit em, which seem to be the problem with these ppl hating on mercs. They just wont learn how to fight em.I mean,if u are a sorc or a mara,I get the hate...but come on,every class has its counters. 🙂🙃🙂🙃 And also sorc madness probably gonna be a pain in the *** for mercs next patch.

Walls of text....

Maybe we should just wait and see....

You Fers expect the worse, all the time, everytime.....

Probably why u Fers and nobody listens to you....LOL

I am sorry I posted in this mess now, cant be right all the time!

We lost our passive dcd to mitigate 30% dmg while stunned and from aoe atks.We also lost our only hard stun,and our move against slow,root,push and pull. This plus the fact that mercs have lower dps than mara,pt,sorc,sniper,op, and in some situations lower than juggs and sins,makes our dcds more important than ever,since its goin to be way easier to global and stunlock mercs now,and we'll get alot more dmg from aoe atks. If u take one dcd from us,mercs goin to be easy targets. If u really need devs to take one of our dcds,fine...give us our hydraulic back and more dps. Than I'll be ok with the change.

What ppl are failling to understand is that it is our playstyle. Its like asking for sorcs to lose mobility,stealthers to lose invisibility,pt and sniper to lose their big bursts ... if u really want us to lose our signature playstyle, which is the survivability, then we need more dps in order to compete.

What I find really funny is that some ppl complaining about mercs dcds actualy play skank juggs. I mean..The lvl of hypocrisy lol.

guys you need to understand-every class looses dcds! you argue that loosing one would kill the class-no it won'T cause everyone else looses dcds as well, you are the only class still able to spec in all your dcds-that is just wrong and problematic. mercs allready were problematic and will be even more if nothing gets changed. you complain about loosing a 30 aoe damage reduction, which you shouldn't have had in the first place-you are ranged for gods sake, if you have trouble getting too much aoe lern to position yourself properly. classes that need that don't have it-melee. and a class which got the most dcds of all complain about loosing something they shouldn't have had in the first place. your damage might be midtier-still good enough cause you live way longer than most classes cause of your overabdundance of strong dcds+ you got the abillity to selfheal on top. its laughable...if you can't survive loosing a dcd while still having net, double rocket out, being ranged, knockback, perma slows build in your rota and solid damage -the problem is in the lack of skill of the vast majority of merc mains. and if it happens that mercs might be at the end of the foodchain again, then so be it, lots of specs are right now too-you had 3+ solid years being on top, time to shake up the meta! mercs need to be brought down to lvl the playing field-no second opinion on this! conc ops need this even more tbh...

guys you need to understand-every class looses dcds! you argue that loosing one would kill the class-no it won'T cause everyone else looses dcds as well, you are the only class still able to spec in all your dcds-that is just wrong and problematic. mercs allready were problematic and will be even more if nothing gets changed. you complain about loosing a 30 aoe damage reduction, which you shouldn't have had in the first place-you are ranged for gods sake, if you have trouble getting too much aoe lern to position yourself properly. classes that need that don't have it-melee. and a class which got the most dcds of all complain about loosing something they shouldn't have had in the first place. your damage might be midtier-still good enough cause you live way longer than most classes cause of your overabdundance of strong dcds+ you got the abillity to selfheal on top. its laughable...if you can't survive loosing a dcd while still having net, double rocket out, being ranged, knockback, perma slows build in your rota and solid damage -the problem is in the lack of skill of the vast majority of merc mains. and if it happens that mercs might be at the end of the foodchain again, then so be it, lots of specs are right now too-you had 3+ solid years being on top, time to shake up the meta! mercs need to be brought down to lvl the playing field-no second opinion on this! conc ops need this even more tbh...

Every class lost dcds, indeed. We lost 1 too. One of the best imo,since it covered exactly one of our biggest weakness which is aoe atks.But every class that lost the dcds, maybe except juggs, didnt lose their playstyle! And thats what u are failling to understand. U want to take away the merc playstyle. Plus all the classes u claim that felt the hammer of nerf harder than mercs still have more dps than mercs. Now we lost a big amount of control and mobility and u still want us to lose more. Seriously,if u want me to teach u how to counter mercs dcds, I can do that. Its pretty easy,unlike currently ops dcds, that u need to do tons of burst in a very small window of time btwn their rolls,in order to kill em.

But Im not complaining about the changes on mercs. I rather wait till the live version to see how the loss of the only hard stun and our hydraulic gonna affect our game in actual fights. I'm just defending the idea that mercs dont need to lose more than what they already lost. IF we get hydraulic back,and better dmg,I wouldnt mind to lose the healing effect of energy shield. And thats it.

Yea,I see. I really dont get all the hate on merc dcd. I kill mercs so easily when Im on my sniper,sin or jugg.Cos mercs wont outdmg u,so all u need to know is when and how to hit em, which seem to be the problem with these ppl hating on mercs. They just wont learn how to fight em.I mean,if u are a sorc or a mara,I get the hate...but come on,every class has its counters. 🙂🙃🙂🙃 And also sorc madness probably gonna be a pain in the *** for mercs next patch.

Ive said this for a very long time, the usual response is something like "what am i supposed to do just stand there"... to me this is the thesis on people not learning how other classes work or what to do when you cant do what you want to do and make the adjustments, which is in essence what understanding PvP truly is.

If you dont know how to counter play a merc at this point, its a you problem.

Ive said this for a very long time, the usual response is something like "what am i supposed to do just stand there"... to me this is the thesis on people not learning how other classes work or what to do when you cant do what you want to do and make the adjustments, which is in essence what understanding PvP truly is.

If you dont know how to counter play a merc at this point, its a you problem.

That’s true. Sadly, 7.0 is going to make my Jugg a free kill for most classes, but especially for mercs and snipers. I won’t have enough damage mitigation or abilities to even get into range to hit them after my first leap they’ll escape and I’ll be stuck trying to get back to them. It will be completely one sided.

That’s true. Sadly, 7.0 is going to make my Jugg a free kill for most classes, but especially for mercs and snipers. I won’t have enough damage mitigation or abilities to even get into range to hit them after my first leap they’ll escape and I’ll be stuck trying to get back to them. It will be completely one sided.

Indeed-but hey merc are balanced you know....their "playstyle" is we have more tools than anyone (not named conc op)- so just deal with us being completly overtuned cause its our "playstyle"....most stupid argument i have ever heard....lmao

btw I do know how to kill and counter a merc, that doesn't make merc a less problematic cause pvp, even ranked which I play a lot, is seldom a 1v1 without interference from others....

Indeed-but hey merc are balanced you know....their "playstyle" is we have more tools than anyone (not named conc op)- so just deal with us being completly overtuned cause its our "playstyle"....most stupid argument i have ever heard....lmao

 

btw I do know how to kill and counter a merc, that doesn't make merc a less problematic cause pvp, even ranked which I play a lot, is seldom a 1v1 without interference from others....

If u know how to counter their dcds, stop whinning so much about em. U talk like mercs are unkilable gods. We arent overpowered now(if u playing jugg and u cant kill a merc in 6.3,or at least put up a good fight,then u are just bad),and we sure going to be way less resourceful when 7.0 lauches,since we lost mobility,immunity to push,pull,slow and root, and we also lost our only hard stun,and a few other things(we goin to heat alot easier next patch). But every class got nerfed, so for now Im ok with it.

I do agree that dps juggs didnt need to be nerfed, especially rage jugg whitch I believe needed a buff. Imo,all these changes they doin are unecessary. They should only nerf concealment op and skank juggs,and buff a few others like madness sorc and rage jugg. But merc is just fine. If mercs were so overpowered,we would be meta in solo and group ranked,which we arent(we arent meta in pve nor pvp,maybe apart from regs). We are a good class,no doubt,but far from being demigods as u implaying.

I also agree with trixxie,juggs need something in order to be able to jump back to ranged,after the first leap.

And ,yes,being a class that manages dmg mitigation while building their own dmg slowly IS a playstyle. U'll find that in almost any mmo.

Indeed-but hey merc are balanced you know....their "playstyle" is we have more tools than anyone (not named conc op)- so just deal with us being completly overtuned cause its our "playstyle"....most stupid argument i have ever heard....lmao

 

btw I do know how to kill and counter a merc, that doesn't make merc a less problematic cause pvp, even ranked which I play a lot, is seldom a 1v1 without interference from others....

No, its completely accurate. The playstyle is what makes the class/spec. Without them we are fodder as we were prior to them becoming a thing. This isnt opinion, is fact, we all know this from the history.

And if you knew how to counter them you wouldnt be posting this.

Indeed-but hey merc are balanced you know....their "playstyle" is we have more tools than anyone (not named conc op)- so just deal with us being completly overtuned cause its our "playstyle"....most stupid argument i have ever heard....lmao

 

btw I do know how to kill and counter a merc, that doesn't make merc a less problematic cause pvp, even ranked which I play a lot, is seldom a 1v1 without interference from others....

Mercs as they are live at the moment, aren’t really an issue. They are pretty balanced to most other classes if you know how to handle them.

Outside of ranked, most classes are pretty balanced in regs with some minor exceptions that could have been easily fixed.

Instead, it’s like Bioware have gone at it with tomahawk and hacked at the body of some classes without understanding how they actually work or play in pvp.

Unfortunately, warriors have it the worst cause they got hacked apart first. Bioware have tried to make small changes to fix them, but they won’t be close to enough to make them viable.

Since then Bioware have only made smallish changes to each subsequent “class” because of the time factor and because BH and agents were the last, they made the least amount of changes so they didn’t have to spend as much time fixing them.

Sadly, Warriors, especially Juggs are going to still be rubbish when this debacle launches on the 14th December.

That’s the only problem I have with the tiny amount of Merc changes. It feels like Bioware kept them mostly intact while decapitating some of the other classes. Basically they weren’t treated equally and now they will be stupidly OP in 7.0 compared to say, a Jugg.

Bioware should have either gutted all classes or none. I would have preferred none to what they’ve actually done.

appologies, I was banned while in the process of previewing a reply 3 days ago.

This is one of the most asinine comments I've ever read.

 

This:

is not going to convince anyone that "the developers know best." Luckily for us they're cognizant of the fact that they're fully capable of making mistakes, hence the request for feedback and the subsequent discussion.

I think you're reading into things that aren't there. BW makes terrible balance decisions on a regular basis (not really. they don't balance on a regular basis. if they did then the bad decisions wouldn't be so bad/impactful). that's why we have DPS running around with CDs that make them skanks with higher dps. I thought I made that point clear. however, the only way you really fix the issue is to strip away the glut, certainly not add to it (6.0 very much added to it, as did previous xpacks). and of course there's pushback. no one wants to lose their toys no matter how inappropriate (not talking about net). it is the job of a responsible parent (or dev team) to do so. that doesn't mean they (i.e., BW) are a responsible parent.

This is about the only thing you typed in your post that has the potential to be relevant to the discussion at hand, and there's a lot that could be said on the matter considering the intertwined nature of wants vs needs. However, given your dismissive nature in the face of overwhelming opposition to your sentiment I'd venture to say it's a conversation you're ill equipped to have.

love you too, sweetheart.

Personally, I'd love to hear your suggestion on what the game should lose or how far you believe the game should regress; if you're done playing psychotherapist on the forums that is.

 

If it isn't worth your time then hey, we can agree to disagree.

Currently PT DPS is a good representative of about what a DPS spec should have in terms of DCDs. there's a DR, an HP regen, and a 2nd break. depending on what hits you, the effectiveness of the dcds improves. there's a movement and root/slow immunity but only every 45s.

I do not think sorc DCDs are bad either (not their big ones: barrier and PW), but they do seem incredibly mobile. It's not a class I play, so I can't say more other than maybe the root lasts a touch too long? and the extra range both sorcs and snipers get seems unnecessary.

snipers are fine other than the teleport. already the best area control and CC in the game. great passive acc debuff and the uptime on entrench (for MM?) has always been stupid long, but cut down on the mobility and it's fair (i.e., teleport).

jugg, mara, op, sin all have too many dcds and immunities. some through tacticals. some through gear. most through class abilities and utility addons. I'm actually baffled that mara has become an "escape" class (and of course, like mercs, they also retained their "in your face" dcds - only it's the reverse for mercs who got 2x rocket outs and kept their snares while getting the reflect/heal/DR dcds).

and I'm fully aware that nerfing dcds will require re-scaling damage and healing in pvp. that is as it should be, and like nerfing dcds, requires testing to find the right mix. a lot of (most) DPS specs have a glut of DCDs and tools (immunties, escapes, etc.) designed to make them survive **** that they just should not be able to do w/o a tank and healer.

but that's the thing: you can scale dps in pvp. all pvp in this game is instanced, including open world. but for every 3 issues, when BW actually takes action, it's to add rather than subtract (hence the dcd power creep).

edit: I'm all for new abils with xpacks. but they just keep piling **** ontop of other ****, and if it doesn't work (and they actually bother to attempt a fix) it usually just means throttling dps. things need to be taken away, hopfully replaced with something different rather than just taking away set bonus gear and replacing it with...the same set bonus gear ( ) the only big move (which was so painfully obvious, words don't do it justice) was bubble stun. and even the fact that it went live, let alone wasn't removed immediately, is testament to the fact that BW doesn't pull back and say, "my bad. that didn't work so well." instead it's, "hmm. ok. we'll give this thing to another class to kinda of make up for that thing we gave that class." now how many classes have a reflect? multiple stealths? teleports and PW? a leap?

 

Currently PT DPS is a good representative of about what a DPS spec should have in terms of DCDs. there's a DR, an HP regen, and a 2nd break. depending on what hits you, the effectiveness of the dcds improves. there's a movement and root/slow immunity but only every 45s.

 

I do not think sorc DCDs are bad either (not their big ones: barrier and PW), but they do seem incredibly mobile. It's not a class I play, so I can't say more other than maybe the root lasts a touch too long? and the extra range both sorcs and snipers get seems unnecessary.

 

snipers are fine other than the teleport. already the best area control and CC in the game. great passive acc debuff and the uptime on entrench (for MM?) has always been stupid long, but cut down on the mobility and it's fair (i.e., teleport).

 

jugg, mara, op, sin all have too many dcds and immunities. some through tacticals. some through gear. most through class abilities and utility addons. I'm actually baffled that mara has become an "escape" class (and of course, like mercs, they also retained their "in your face" dcds - only it's the reverse for mercs who got 2x rocket outs and kept their snares while getting the reflect/heal/DR dcds).

 

and I'm fully aware that nerfing dcds will require re-scaling damage and healing in pvp. that is as it should be, and like nerfing dcds, requires testing to find the right mix. a lot of (most) DPS specs have a glut of DCDs and tools (immunties, escapes, etc.) designed to make them survive **** that they just should be able to do w/o a tank and healer.

 

but that's the thing: you can scale dps in pvp. all pvp in this game is instanced, including open world. but for every 3 issues, when BW actually takes action, it's to add rather than subtract (hence the dcd power creep).

Like I said before I don't actually have a problem with Bioware nerfing the number of DCDs so long as they nerf them in a manner that preserves class balance in PvP, retains unique class (and spec) identity, and respects the current flow of each class in combat. Above all I take issue with their implementation not the overall idea of modifying the game.

I disagree with the notion (Bioware's initial approach) that you can arbitrarily remove a bunch of utilities / DCDs without reworking the specs and expect the game to function in a way that's enjoyable for the player base without extensive testing. My suggestion of bringing the other classes up was simply the easiest solution that requires the least amount of time and effort. I didn't say anything about it being the ideal solution.

I've already mentioned that modifying damage output, baseline DR, DCD function / damage reduction percentages, the ABC tree, etc, would be the optimal approach.

What you're talking about is a full rework of the game. In order to make what you've said work they would have to clearly define what constitutes "glut", why it exists, and redesign the game in a manner that will make those tools unnecessary. This would also require them to balance melee vs range based on time on target (along with a host of other issues); all the while ensuring the final product is as fun if not more fun than the current system in place.

You're correct in your assertion that they typically add. They basically take the easy way out. However, I'm a firm believer that they can address power creep without removing the basic functionality of all classes; but I don't see them getting something like this done by Dec 14th.

Side note:

I like the fact that different classes are capable of different things. With the way the game is now we have to think about how we defeat certain classes, not just "Sweet, he popped his 12 second DCD. All in boys." I like the chess match that is the current state of the game when dueling other players. Whatever Bioware decides to do, there should always be a place for knowledge and creativity in battle.

 

love you too, sweatheart.

 

🤣

Mercs as they are live at the moment, aren’t really an issue. They are pretty balanced to most other classes if you know how to handle them.

Outside of ranked, most classes are pretty balanced in regs with some minor exceptions that could have been easily fixed.

Instead, it’s like Bioware have gone at it with tomahawk and hacked at the body of some classes without understanding how they actually work or play in pvp.

Unfortunately, warriors have it the worst cause they got hacked apart first. Bioware have tried to make small changes to fix them, but they won’t be close to enough to make them viable.

Since then Bioware have only made smallish changes to each subsequent “class” because of the time factor and because BH and agents were the last, they made the least amount of changes so they didn’t have to spend as much time fixing them.

Sadly, Warriors, especially Juggs are going to still be rubbish when this debacle launches on the 14th December.

That’s the only problem I have with the tiny amount of Merc changes. It feels like Bioware kept them mostly intact while decapitating some of the other classes. Basically they weren’t treated equally and now they will be stupidly OP in 7.0 compared to say, a Jugg.

Bioware should have either gutted all classes or none. I would have preferred none to what they’ve actually done.

I didn't really follow the changes on PTS , but I expect the same usual story for 7.0 with some classes being totally useless and others being OP and being over represented in the que , which in return will just feed the class stacking .

Just stop swtor for like a month or so and return to it . The problems of PVP will stand out the second you hit the que button after a break. Basically this is some kind of stun war game. 95% of your death are because of or a the result of some kind of stun , root, slow. Now add to it poor balance by making classes that can vanish , have good dps and have lots of stuns overpowered in comparison with others that dont' have that . Also.. what was the point of adding a double vanish tactical to sins ? What was the point of making maras able to vanish 20 times if needed ?

In the end what does it matter ? It's a video game. Treat it as such .

By the the way, mercs are fine as far as I'm concerned. You can kill them if you know what their defenses do. Of course one of the reasons why so many players complain is because in reality they don't know the other classes' defenses and how to counter them.

For 7.0 the the most complaints will come from the arena type of PVP(ranked), which is the place where most class weaknesses can make a big impact on the outcome and where stun wars really matters. But it's fine as long as those who play that think it's " competitve" .

Like I said before I don't actually have a problem with Bioware nerfing the number of DCDs so long as they nerf them in a manner that preserves class balance in PvP, retains unique class (and spec) identity, and respects the current flow of each class in combat. Above all I take issue with their implementation not the overall idea of modifying the game.

zero faith BW can or will ever do this or do it well (see jugg dps on 7.0 PTS).

you can see that they've made DPS spec self-sustainable, and they've done so mostly b/c of players (these are the children) whining that they cannot compete on X, Y, Z classes. well, yeah. you're also solo queuing into an 8m WZ team designed around 3 roles: heal, tank, dps. so of course you're going to die fast if you go off on your own as a lone dps (or have to stealth away).

between the large swathes of players (and I'm one of them) who usually queues solo and the advent of solo ranked, BW has clearly bent to pressure to make DPS self-sufficient. the end result is looking at nobodies who can stall a node for 2 minutes or more...a feat that required good/very good players to accomplish before BW started piling-on reflects, PWs, tacticals, etc.

I disagree with the notion (Bioware's initial approach) that you can arbitrarily remove a bunch of utilities / DCDs without reworking the specs and expect the game to function in a way that's enjoyable for the player base without extensive testing. My suggestion of bringing the other classes up was simply the easiest solution that requires the least amount of time and effort. I didn't say anything about it being the ideal solution.

do you remember the class representatives debacle? it's not arbitrary. it just seems so b/c they don't communicate. and, of course, they're bad. hence the zero faith in BW. still, I'd rather see them start to reduce DPS dcds.

I've already mentioned that modifying damage output, baseline DR, DCD function / damage reduction percentages, the ABC tree, etc, would be the optimal approach.

imo, and I'm no coder, the best solution would simply be to scale dmg according to map type and team composition. so arenas with trinity would have a higher dmg scale than arenas with just healer, and so forth. back fill does tend to ruin this, but that should really only matter in ranked, and if ranked is subbing uneven roles, then I feel strongly that the match should not pop. the technology exists. FPs require everyone to accept before finalizing the team(s).

What you're talking about is a full rework of the game. In order to make what you've said work they would have to clearly define what constitutes "glut", why it exists, and redesign the game in a manner that will make those tools unnecessary. This would also require them to balance melee vs range based on time on target (along with a host of other issues); all the while ensuring the final product is as fun if not more fun than the current system in place.

 

You're correct in your assertion that they typically add. They basically take the easy way out. However, I'm a firm believer that they can address power creep without removing the basic functionality of all classes; but I don't see them getting something like this done by Dec 14th.

this is no different from the work that (should) go into the introduction of every new xpack, level change, gear set, utility skill add/subtraction, spec ability add/subtraction. the fact that it seems herculean at the moment is the result of negligence over the past what? 5? 6 years of just piling one thing on top of another.

they were never going to make meaningful changes once they opened up the PTS. they never do. at best, all you can hope for is that they roll back something that's already in the PTS.

Side note:

I like the fact that different classes are capable of different things. With the way the game is now we have to think about how we defeat certain classes, not just "Sweet, he popped his 12 second DCD. All in boys." I like the chess match that is the current state of the game when dueling other players. Whatever Bioware decides to do, there should always be a place for knowledge and creativity in battle.

yeah. although they are quite homogenized at the moment. in arenas, you're either a "stand and fight," "fight and flee," or in the case of juggs, "flee and...flee."

I misspoke or gave the wrong impression when I held PT dps as the ideal. I wouldn't want their exact set of dcds to be on everyone (that's the same as everyone having a "mad dash" or "reflect"), but the effectiveness of their dcds is appropriate for a DPS spec. they melt the way any lone dps should melt w/o healer or guard (and not nearly so bad as the emotional trauma ppl seem to be feeling from the 5.x version of the class). I don't begrudge non-stealth as having better face-tanking dcds than stealth who can escape. but again (e.g.) for the sniper, what does having a PW have to do with their class identity? (range, area control, CC)

Guys I know how to balance pvp in about 30 mins of work.

Legendary Item

Choose your patch. It lets you play the class from whatever previous patch you want. Everyone in wins. Well mostly me but that's ok

*snip*

Literally a box full of facts that Bioware needs to read.

Yea I assumed you meant overall uptime and not an increase in homogenization. I agree that generally PT uptime is exactly what I would expect from a DPS class, but the difference in damage output, defenses(armor / passive mitigation), potential time on target, range / melee, burst vs dot spec necessitates a unique variety of defensives and lifespans. Modifying the values of those DCDs would allow the game to be the same in look and function, but achieve the change in uptime so DPS specs have an appropriate lifespan.

I'm not 100% sure of what the code base looks like for the game. I've never sought out that information. I know it's built on the Hero engine and that's C++, so this code is most likely not far off.

Ex: Saber Ward for the Sith Warrior.

On Apply

Perform the following actions:

Play appearance epp . sith_warrior . saber_ward . buff

Modify stat Melee Defense, increase by 0.5 // <--- change this value. Currently 50%

Modify stat Ranged Defense, increase by 0.5 // <--- change this value.

Perform the following actions:

Absorb Damage

- Damage Type = (int) 5

- Spell Type = (int) 1

- Level Cap = (int) 0

- Unknown (610) = (int) 0

- Amount Max = (float) 0

- Amount Min = (float) 0

- Amount Percent = (float) 0.25 // <---change this value.

- Standard Health Percent Max = (float) 0

- Standard Health Percent Min = (float) 0

- Max Damage Absorbed = (float) 0

- Healing Power Coefficient = (float) 0

I'm no expert when it comes to coding, but I know enough to realize a change like this would take a seasoned developer all of 30 seconds. The time to test it would take longer than making the actual change. That's why it blows my mind that they're avoiding it like the plague.

Scaling damage based on team composition might be a bit more challenging.

Ultimately if Bioware reads nothing else I hope they read your last post. That was a whole lot of truth in one place.

Yea I assumed you meant overall uptime and not an increase in homogenization. I agree that generally PT uptime is exactly what I would expect from a DPS class, but the difference in damage output, defenses(armor / passive mitigation), potential time on target, range / melee, burst vs dot spec necessitates a unique variety of defensives and lifespans.. Modifying the values of those DCDs would allow the game to be the same in look and function, but achieve the change in uptime so DPS specs have an appropriate lifespan.

 

I'm not 100% sure of what the code base looks like for the game. I've never sought out that information. I know it's built on the Hero engine and that's C++, so this code is most likely not far off.

 

Ex: Saber Ward for the Sith Warrior.

 

On Apply

Perform the following actions:

 

Play appearance epp . sith_warrior . saber_ward . buff

Modify stat Melee Defense, increase by 0.5 // <--- change this value. Currently 50%

Modify stat Ranged Defense, increase by 0.5 // <--- change this value.

 

Perform the following actions:

 

Absorb Damage

- Damage Type = (int) 5

- Spell Type = (int) 1

- Level Cap = (int) 0

- Unknown (610) = (int) 0

- Amount Max = (float) 0

- Amount Min = (float) 0

- Amount Percent = (float) 0.25 // <---change this value.

- Standard Health Percent Max = (float) 0

- Standard Health Percent Min = (float) 0

- Max Damage Absorbed = (float) 0

- Healing Power Coefficient = (float) 0

 

I'm no expert when it comes to coding, but I know enough to realize a change like this would take a seasoned developer all of 30 seconds. The time to test it would take longer than making the actual change. That's why it blows my mind that they're avoiding it like the plague.

 

Scaling damage based on team composition might be a bit more challenging.

 

Ultimately if Bioware reads nothing else I hope they read your last post. That was a whole lot of truth in one place.

You both make good points. Sadly, we know BioWare won’t read any of this. And even if they do, they won’t act on it because they’ve already made their decision, wether it’s for good or bad we are now stuck with what’s currently on the PTS for at least another 12+ months