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Trooper Vs Sith


MoolkBiggestOrk

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So there have been many posts made on this topic in the past but most I have read about are older, so I wanted to make a new one to get fresh opinions. This doesnt have to be just Trooper vs Sith but any non force user vs force users.

 

So the question is...do you think that a Trooper could beat a Sith in straight up 1v1 combat?

 

I'm definitely biased but I believe the short answer is yes, but admittedly there are just SO many different variables to consider its almost to difficult to speculate on. But for entertainment sake...we shall lol.

 

I have the idea that force users althought powerful, aren't nearly as powerful as they are sometimes percieved. Troopers can be physically stronger than their sith opponent, and faster to, in terms of CQC. Troopers make up for their lack of force powers with technology such as automatic weapons, explosives, lightning zapper things, cyro grenades, etc. I don't think even the most powerful of Sith can block an explosive, or 2, or 3, and a dozen bullets every few seconds, while remaining on the offensive...or at all really. Furthermore they are no different than anyone else in terms of frailty...they get shot, or exploded, they die just as easily.

 

Sure a sith could force choke but even that isn't a free win. I dont think its an insta kill, it atleast takes a few moments that could be utilized to blast them.

 

In game the fights take a considerable amount of time, but in a "real" fight w/ a special forces trooper vs a sith I believe it would be extremely fast. There is to much lethal capability on both of their parts to result in any type of long drawn out ordeal. I also think it would heavily be like the old saying of "whomever throws the first punch wins" which even in RL has some truth to it. So if the Trooper engages first and throws everything he has at the sith, all of his explosives and shock tools and putting dozens of rounds towards sith I find it highly unlikely the sith could withstand that kind of assault although I am sure there is a scenario where it can or has been done. Likewise, if the sith engages w/ all of his force techniques the fight could be over w/ 1 swing of a light saber before the trooper has a chance to fight back. Engaging at the same time...well that seems like it could just go either way imo and depends on who is more skilled but regardless of who wins I believe it would be a very fast fight.

 

There are plenty of scenarios that could be thought up to benefit either side. But I think what should be accepted as truth is that it is just as likely for a non force user to beat a force user, all things considered. But that is just my opinion. How do yall see the age old force user vs non force user debate?

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I think that a Trooper/Bounty Hunter can beat a Sith/Jedi, they are well equipped and have lots of training, but a Smuggler/Imperial Agent doesnt stand a chance against a Sith/Jedi they dont have the training a Trooper hasand their equipment isnt as advanced as the Trooper/Bounty Hunter.
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I think that a Trooper/Bounty Hunter can beat a Sith/Jedi, they are well equipped and have lots of training, but a Smuggler/Imperial Agent doesnt stand a chance against a Sith/Jedi they dont have the training a Trooper hasand their equipment isnt as advanced as the Trooper/Bounty Hunter.

 

I won't give my opinion as it is well known...or at least known from other similar threads but I have to ask why do you consider agent/smuggler not well trained? Although I can see a starting (or even somewhat veteran) smuggler not being trained/experienced in fighting a force users ( they are very intuitive people that easy spot weaknesses and exploit them...not to mention the ability to think fast etc...), but a veteran one? Didn't we become some underworld big boss? Yea I have no idea why you think that their equipment is worse than trooper's or bounty hunter one....

Anyway for the agent (although with how for him/her you have options on how it turned out it is not so easy defined I guess) you are definetely very well trained - your chapter 2 is all about that and how the dark council freaked out that you are just too dangerous (and I hope this thread was in spoilers section with all these spioilers:) )....and it is very possible an agent (with particular ending) to have the best technology the galaxy have (possibly stuff trooper/BH don't even know about).

Edited by Saelinne
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Both the trooper and the agent are well trained they are learned hand to hand combat are learned to use a weapon at a master level they are learned how to adapt on the battlefield there learned all kinds of tactics used on the battlefield there in peak physical health and there taught to use everything at their disposal to finish enemies.

But the sith are also well trained there also in peak physical health and above and and learned all kinds of tactics used on the battlefield besides that the force can make up for the lack of weapons.

Now lets take Malcom and Malgus the fight between them Malgus was stronger but his arrogance made him careless and made him have grenade blow up in his face. Most force users have this problem they play to much and sometimes it blows up in their face mostly figurative but sometimes literally.

Edited by adormitul
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Let's go through your points and then I'll add a few of my own. Before you complain that I'm a Jedi fanboy, I have characters in all the classes and enjoy my merc (vanguard's a bit clunky but the burst is too sexy to drop)

 

Could a Trooper kill a Jedi/Sith 1v1 in game? Yes, otherwise PVP would be full of Jedi. The classes have to be balanced to a degree or people won't play them (cue whining from every PVP player as class X is OP and/or needs a buff.)

Could a squad of troopers kill a Jedi/Sith in universe? Possible, if the Jedi is distracted, surprised, vulnerable or they get lucky. For examples see the Umbara episodes of the clone wars cartoon, read the Republic commando novel series (can't remember if they fight a Sith in the game) or watch episode III.

Could a trooper solo a Sith 1v1 in lore? No chance. for an example,

.

 

You have an idea - this isn't reasoned argument, it's an opinion. Opinions are fine and cool, but they don't belong in researched arguments. Citation needed but for now we'll assume this is a fact not an opinion.

 

Jedi are powerful but aren't nearly as powerful as sometimes perceived - yep, better known as the Starkiller effect. In lore, force adepts range from being uber Mary Sues of the highest regard (a la Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Starkiller and Vitiate) to barely sensitive at all (a la Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy or Scout if you prefer). there's a huge range, and even some powerful Jedi aren't combat specialists and are particularly unsuited for combat. take Yarael Poof for example, he's a Jedi council member who gets stabbed by a force blind revolutionary (or most lore-derived consulars for that matter) For the following, I'm going to assume a mid-range Jedi (like Obi Wan Kenobi) as the base, so no god-mode Sues like the Skywalkers. Of course, this doesn't take the dark side into account, where the alter skills (force techniques that influence/affect the environment) are stronger

 

Troopers can be physically stronger and faster - lol no. All Jedi initiates (as in pre-padawans) learn how to augment their body with the force, granting themselves superhuman speed, reflexes and strength.

All tech can be disabled or countered, using the force, a lightsaber or simply dodged. Let's go through your list.

Automatic weapons - dodge and reflect it back with more of a focus on dodging (remember, force enhanced reflexes and speed aren't infallible.

explosives - if thrown, see grenades, if previously set up, see Jedi precognition via the force.

lightning zapper things Tutaminis (energy manipulation) or channelled via the lightsaber. Remember, Sith throw lightning around all the time, so Jedi of this era will have practice in handling it.

Cyro grenades (or any grenade at all) - the best of all, force push and the trooper takes themselves out. I used to do this a lot in Jedi Academy. Basically, anything that doesn't have its own propulsion system once in the air is at the mercy of a force adept

Rockets (wasn't on your list but is distinct from explosives and grenades) can be redirected via the force or shielded (as seen in the opening cutscene of SW:TOR and the hope cinematic (aka the Sithpuncher's scene))

We're also assuming that the Jedi can't won't use said weapons themselves (remember Kyle Katarn?)

 

Furthermore, all these assumes that the Jedi will just be standing there, waiting for the trooper to strike. There's no reason for them to stand still, especially if there's a chance the attack will kill them. remember, they are faster than a force blind, in terms of speed and reflexes (see Obi wan and Qui gon evade automatic fire from the destroyer droids at the start of episode I).

 

They can't stay on the offensive while blocking and parrying? (see the first link for a visual rebuttal)

 

Jedi are frail? no, Jedi are f*cking cockraoches: just look up Kyle Katarn or K'kruhk for an example. for lesser examples, Jedi have body augmentation again, as previously mentioned, and part of that includes constitution. More than that, they can raise shields and barriers when needed, though not for long, and can wear armour as heavy as any trooper's.

 

Force choke isn't a free win - sorry, what? it absolutely is a free win. The times a Sith uses force choke in the films and EU, it stops the combat straight up. Should they so choose they could crush a windpipe without difficulty (it only repuires 15kg (33lb) to crush a trachea, and only 5kg (11lb) to collapse it. For reference, that's less than you need to crush a drink can. Humans and near humans can't survive that, and even if they somehow could, the Sith is going to use the distraction to close and lop their head off.

 

IRL fights are fast yes, but the trooper 9/10 times isn't going to get the first hit in combat - remember, force adepts are adept in using the force, and they listen to it, granting them a limited form of near prescience regarding danger.

Even if we assume the trooper goes first, they can't use everything at once, given that the combat will be over within seconds. Could they take a Jedi if they got everything out at once, maybe, but it's not possible. To get that kind of firepower, you would need a team (

, and even then they take casualties)

 

it's just as likely to see a force blind take out a force adept - nope, otherwise Jedi wouldn't send one or two out on assault missions, they'd go out in squads or as a legion.

 

However, that is not to say it is impossible for force blinds to kill Jedi.

and a lot fall into the categories of trickery, ultra-long range and unconventional tactics, which is the speciality of the smuggler and agent.

 

Lastly and as a major point to take from this... Agent and Smuggler have worse equipment than a trooper or hunter? quick question, which class has access to stealth technology, advanced personal shields that absorb all damage for a few seconds or oh, I don't know orbital strike weaponry? Quick clue, it's not the hunter. If anything, the trooper/hunter have the worst loadout to take on a Jedi, as they're forcing combat into mid or close range, where the Jedi excel.

Edited by Feldraeth
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If we are talking about universe in general, not taking game mechanics into account, I would say the following:

 

- Unprepared Trooper (or any other non-Force user) will have great problems if he/she suddenly meets a Force-using enemy. Trained Jedi and Sith have lots of advantages: speed, endurance, limited precognition, offensive Force abilities, weapons capable of cutting almost anything. But they still stay biological creatures with various vulnerabilities; a Sith can deflect blaster bolt, but grenade blast will be harder, a Sith can evade rifle shots, but a flashbang may blind him, and so on. The trick is to react immediately and instantly understand what things among your gear can help against such an enemy.

 

- If there is time to prepare - that is quite a different story. As I have said before, Force-users are not invulnerable, and lots of their advantages can be countered with clever tactics and correct choice of gear. That is especially true now, when there are many Jedi and Sith and people of dangerous professions usually analyze their capabilities and ways of fighting them. And if it is known for sure who is the opponent - than it is possible to equip and make tactics against this very enemy.

 

To sum it up: yes, it is quite possible for a Trooper to fight a Sith and win. The problem is that it is much easier for a Sith to become completely deadly and dangerous right away, without preparations and additional gear.

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Has anyone ever understood why Obi Won the definition of not weak and not especially strong jedi for some reason had problems defeating non force users like Jango Fett or Cad Bane?

Why did he never used force choke on them or force push or crush to an extent that he could defeat them?

Well because as all jedi they do not go for the kill they never do and they die because of that. While sith play with their non force user enemies and also die because of this.

What is wrong with them?

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Has anyone ever understood why Obi Won the definition of not weak and not especially strong jedi for some reason had problems defeating non force users like Jango Fett or Cad Bane?

Why did he never used force choke on them or force push or crush to an extent that he could defeat them?

Well because as all jedi they do not go for the kill they never do and they die because of that. While sith play with their non force user enemies and also die because of this.

What is wrong with them?

 

Well it's the way of the Jedi. They are the "good" guys and killing is the last option. They don't want to kill.

With the Sith, well most of them are arrogant and think that Non Force Users are beneath them. Many will not use the full potential they have because of that. A smart enemy will use this arrogance against them.

 

So, could the Trooper defeat a Sith? Depends, if you ask me.

From dialogue we can hear, that republic troops, or atleast special forces, are "trained to kill Sith". In the game, they live in an age where Sith and Jedi are not really rare, so they could train the "basics" for a fight against Force Users.

 

But not every Sith is the same. An acolyte or an apprentice will be much easier to kill, than a lord for example.

It also depends on the situation, equipment and if the trooper is prepared for it or not.

 

In the end, I would say: Yes a trooper can kill a Sith, most likely something like an acolyte or an apprentice, with luck even a lord. But a Darth? Nope.

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Execution of Order 66......nuff said, while they werent completely prepared, few are when I open fire in game. In the OT it was far more rare and more absolute given Jedi/Sith rarity. In TOR Jedi and Sith are common place and so strategies to fight them existed. I could see being able to learn something that is all around you constantly then something rare and clouded in mystery like in the OT.
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Execution of Order 66......nuff said, while they werent completely prepared, few are when I open fire in game. In the OT it was far more rare and more absolute given Jedi/Sith rarity. In TOR Jedi and Sith are common place and so strategies to fight them existed. I could see being able to learn something that is all around you constantly then something rare and clouded in mystery like in the OT.

 

But the ones who where managed to get away like Obi Won the average jedi that all think he is in spite of beating the chosen one also about 30 other jedi escaped of different level of ability.

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But the ones who where managed to get away like Obi Won the average jedi that all think he is in spite of beating the chosen one also about 30 other jedi escaped of different level of ability.
Indeed, which is why I dont have a problem with defeating generic Jedi/Sith we find in mobs and such, fighting Darths amd Masters? Well guess the Force is more with us then them. ;)
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Sith will win 95%-100% of the time. In a fight where plot armor doesn't protect either character, the Sith has the force on his side. He/she will just yank the gun out of the troopers hands, crush their arms, and force push them off the arena platform.

 

The bounty hunter on the other hand might have a higher chance, considering they have tools to resist force pushes and what not.

Edited by cool-dude
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Execution of Order 66......nuff said, while they werent completely prepared, few are when I open fire in game. In the OT it was far more rare and more absolute given Jedi/Sith rarity. In TOR Jedi and Sith are common place and so strategies to fight them existed. I could see being able to learn something that is all around you constantly then something rare and clouded in mystery like in the OT.

 

Order 66 isn't an accurate v.s scenario. The Jedi were out-numbered 10-1 when fighting the clones, and were simply overwhelmed by numbers, not ability of troopers.

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Anyone who falls on the trooper side of this argument should probably go play the Jedi Knight series on Steam, particularly Jedi Knight: Jedi Acadamy. In Jedi Acadamey you can fight a Sith with all sorts of weapons but 99% of the time the higher level SIth will counter them: blaster bolts are deflected by a lightsaber; grenades and rockets are thrown back by the force; even the disruptor rifle (which fires a fast moving beam that cant be deflected) will be dodged by most of the Sith enemies.
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Anyone who falls on the trooper side of this argument should probably go play the Jedi Knight series on Steam, particularly Jedi Knight: Jedi Acadamy. In Jedi Acadamey you can fight a Sith with all sorts of weapons but 99% of the time the higher level SIth will counter them: blaster bolts are deflected by a lightsaber; grenades and rockets are thrown back by the force; even the disruptor rifle (which fires a fast moving beam that cant be deflected) will be dodged by most of the Sith enemies.

 

I do not know about that I managed to desintegrate some of them you know the weapon I am speaking of right? You just have to time it right preferably when they jump like idiots towards you or better by taking them by surprise. But it also does not help that I can also jump and force push.

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The problem with these discussions is that it assumes that people are standing across from one another completely aware of each other and someone tells them to go and because a Force User's powers are sort of nebulous. I mean the common defense for Force users are that you can just yank the weapon out of someone's hands, but that assumes they don't have another weapon or have a good hold onto the weapon.

 

We've also seen Jedi completely aware of an enemy, but they still get dropped because the sheer fire power is too much for even their Force enhanced bodies to deflect. That's not even mentioning strange aliens who regenerate body parts or lightsaber proof gear.

 

My point is that even a master/darth could potentially be taken out by a Trooper who has prepared enough, catches the Darth off guard or just draws his blaster quicker than the Jedi is able to activate their lightsaber.

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One versus one as in a duel scenario where the Sith is expecting an attack and knows where it is coming from? Absolutely not. The trooper would be dead in a heartbeat.

 

Jedi and Sith are not invulnerable, but their powers provide them so massive an advantage over anyone who doesn't share their abilities, that the only means for non-force using people to kill them is through subterfuge or having overwhelming firepower and/or numbers. A trooper could kill a Sith, but it would have to be during the chaos of battle when the Sith was defending against multiple threats, including potentially other force users, or through some trick where the Sith is caught off guard.

 

If gameplay marched in lockstep with the lore both the Jedi and Sith player classes would be elite classes capable of annihilating hordes of Troopers, Agents, Smugglers, ect. single-handed, and all Sith and Jedi NPC enemies encountered in the game would be Hard Mode Operation style boss fights for anyone who isn't a force user. Darths and Jedi Masters would be Nightmare Ops boss tier.

Edited by Aeneas_Falco
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Order 66 isn't just the overwhelming firepower, it's also the complete and utter surprise of the attack. The clone troopers react almost instantly to their orders and they feel no malice - most of the Jedi don't even have time to sense anything is wrong before they're dead. Seeing as the clone troopers have been perfectly loyal up to that point their Jedi officers probably weren't really focusing on them anyway, keeping them as a background noise in their heads.

 

That's how a Trooper would have to do it too. Surprise, firepower, emotional detachment. Possibly a distraction.

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you know the one with the big head could fight back why did he not used force speed and get away or kill them faster then they could react by destroying a certain artery can anyone explain why?

He is named ki adi mundi and he was close to the top. Or all the jedi from the jedi temple?

No you can not you all know that. For all the evidence that shows that a jedi can kill someone with a flick of its wrist there are even more that shows that they can not.

Edited by adormitul
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you know the one with the big head could fight back why did he not used force speed and get away or kill them faster then they could react by destroying a certain artery can anyone explain why?

He is named ki adi mundi and he was close to the top. Or all the jedi from the jedi temple?

No you can not you all know that. For all the evidence that shows that a jedi can kill someone with a flick of its wrist there are even more that shows that they can not.

 

Because surprise, plus the fact that he was suddenly fired upon which made him unable to really do anything other than block the shots. Is the reason. That is quite clearly shown.

 

Surprise was the biggest factor in Order 66.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Do I need to pull out the comic where a Sith casually destroys a room full of people with but a thought? And he isn't anywhere close to one of the top Sith or Jedi?

 

I'll do you one better, a fallen Padawan Kibh Jeen turned Dark Jedi, mind dominated all the pirates in an asteroid belt without hardly even thinking. He then later went on to chuck lighting out of the sky, destroying hundreds of homes.

 

A Sith against a Trooper?...

 

A Dark Jedi, could prove trouble for a Trooper, let alone a Sith.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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