Well. At no point in any feedback thread is there a request for players opinion on hard performance.

Instead there are 5 questions on how players feel.

And one question of is anything mechanically broken.

It's not as if it's a big secret but there's no request for it either.

Absolutely mind boggling that players have an opinion on PTS performance when they can't be bothered to get on the PTS so how would you know what any number should look like.

 

You going to compare to your testing?

 

There was the fat post I made on the first page describing in detail the mechanics.

 

Here's cola streaming https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1265776486

 

I fully expect to hear that people in group (2) have no idea what they're looking at. Why would they.

You haven't provided any parsing links or anything showing 4 Sentinels wrecking content. Doing back of the paper napkin math doesn't provide any definitive evidence. You keep attacking everyone asking you to provide proof. Have you actually played a Sentinel on PTS? I have. Sentinel has been my main since Beta. I play all 3 specs.

You linked a 3 hour twitch stream where the streamer spends the first hour jumping around on fleet and playing PvP matches as an Assassin while loud music blares. If there is some defining proof, at least provide a timestamp. You keep attacking everyone asking for actually proof, you profess everyone is dumb and hasn't played on PTS. Please provide hard evidence from parses or actual video containing 4 Sentinels trivializing Master Mode Operations or Ranked PvP.

That's what I thought.

You're a person who doesn't read the thread or understand but decides 4 watchmen is an essential combination and not the part where I say it is a example of convenience to give a result of comparable dps and healers in whole numbers.

I don't ever say go ranked or do MM with that combination I give a straight call that X is the output and describe why the healing is so dramatically increased.

Go read it for the first time now we're 3 pages in.

Then once you're done there you can go look at colas stream again where a nightmare raid was being done by competent players on the PTS.

Remember what I said?

I believe the following is true

 

The output of 4 watchman sentinels

=

The output of 5 less fortunate damage dealers

The output of 2 healers

 

There are other chasms in performance but this probably takes the biscuit.

 

Will there be any changes to spec disparity in this last month before everything goes live and is it worth players giving feedback on this.

You get to see 1 in group content so do some quick maths to work out what that means 1 marauder does.

When you're done learning what your spec does feel free to bump the thread up again with a proper reply on the thread topic which is whether we should discuss spec balance on the PTS forum.

 

When you're done finding out what your spec does feel free to bump the thread up again with a proper reply on the thread topic which is whether we should discuss spec balance on the PTS forum.

You...do realise that the devs set up spec-specific feedback threads specifically to discuss each specification and its balancing, right?

You...do realise that the devs set up spec-specific feedback threads specifically to discuss each specification and its balancing, right?

You... read the feedback requests?

It doesn't ask for any hard performance comparisons and this is not specific to watchman despite the agitated sentinel players in here on the presenting of one example. It is about balance between specs which would be absurd to attempt across 16 threads that don't ask for it.

That's what I thought.

 

You're a person who doesn't read the thread or understand but decides 4 watchmen is an essential combination and not the part where I say it is a example of convenience to give a result of comparable dps and healers in whole numbers.

 

I don't ever say go ranked or do MM with that combination I give a straight call that X is the output and describe why the healing is so dramatically increased.

 

Go read it for the first time now we're 3 pages in.

 

Then once you're done there you can go look at colas stream again where a nightmare raid was being done by competent players on the PTS.

 

Remember what I said?

 

 

You get to see 1 in group content so do some quick maths to work out what that means 1 marauder does.

 

When you're done learning what your spec does feel free to bump the thread up again with a proper reply on the thread topic which is whether we should discuss spec balance on the PTS forum.

Please stop attacking everyone and provide actual data to your accusations. Please try to be civil and have an actual conversation. You do little to help your cause or prove a point by attacking everyone who is asking for an honest conversation. You are coming across as rude and dismissive.

I am also guessing that English might not be your first language as we seem to have a communication barrier. No one ever said 4 Sentinels/Marauders is essential. I also brought up master mode and ranked because that is the only places where balance matters.

Once again, please provides parses (plural) to back up your claims. It is obvious you don't play a Sentinel or a Marauder if you don't understand how it would be impossible to have 4 Marauders line up Zen windows to provide a level of sustainable healing that would allow them to replace a healer, or allow a healer to spend more time DPSing instead. You can theorize all day, but without actual proof, you have no valid claims that anyone will believe.

I looked at the stream. Please explain, with detail, how it supports your belief that Marauders are overpowered. They did EC (the easiest master mode) with 1-2 players that was a Sentinel/Marauder. One switched to Sorcerer Heals after they wiped on Toth and Zorn (so much for Sentinels replacing healers). Hilariously enough, the Marauders weren't always playing Annihilation spec either. One played Fury spec on Kephess because of the adds. Their Sorcerer healer(s) were not out-healed by the Marauder. The single Sorcerer did 16 Million healing on Kephess. The Marauder who was actually paying Annihilation did 4 million. The 2nd Marauder was once again not playing Annihilation spec. Even with inflated group healing values vs. single target healing by the healer(s), it wasn't even close. The tanks also died a few times. So much for replacing healers. The tank who was the person who was streaming somehow even managed to do over half the healing that the *overpowered* Marauder was doing.

Also, these mighty and overpowered Marauders were parsing a fair bit lower than one of the the Mercs. *GASP*. The other Merc was parsing about the same as the Marauders.

How is the video evidence to any claim you have made? If anything, it displays evidence that is completely contrary to your claims that Sentinels are unfairly unbalanced.

Please provide actual and constructive feedback based on the linked video, or actual parses showing your outlandish claims. Can you do that without attacking everyone? Otherwise, if you continue to troll everyone and not provide any actual evidence, then everyone including the developers will end up ignoring you.

Please stop attacking everyone and provide actual data to your accusations. Please try to be civil and have an actual conversation. You do little to help your cause or prove a point by attacking everyone who is asking for an honest conversation. You are coming across as rude and dismissive.

 

...

 

Please provide actual and constructive feedback based on the linked video, or actual parses showing your outlandish claims. Can you do that without attacking everyone? Otherwise, if you continue to troll everyone and not provide any actual evidence, then everyone including the developers will end up ignoring you.

Please?

You lie to my face, you deny hard facts on healing that you can instantly confirm on the PTS on your own, you disregard a streamed NiM operation of quality players with stat overlay and say you want an honest conversation.

I offer you your own words.

So now we know that you invented the claim of overpowered and want to say I said it, how many times will you repeat the lie?

Lets filter out a few more instances of obvious dishonesty:

Lets consider what you decided you saw in the live stream for the honest conversation that you uphold the values of:

They did EC (the easiest master mode) with 1-2 players that was a Sentinel/Marauder. One switched to Sorcerer Heals after they wiped on Toth and Zorn (so much for Sentinels replacing healers). Hilariously enough, the Marauders weren't always playing Annihilation spec either. One played Fury spec on Kephess because of the adds. Their Sorcerer healer(s) were not out-healed by the Marauder. The single Sorcerer did 16 Million healing on Kephess. The Marauder who was actually paying Annihilation did 4 million. The 2nd Marauder was once again not playing Annihilation spec. Even with inflated group healing values vs. single target healing by the healer(s), it wasn't even close. The tanks also died a few times. So much for replacing healers. The tank who was the person who was streaming somehow even managed to do over half the healing that the *overpowered* Marauder was doing.

So some bizarre ignorance. It's PTS EC master mode. That means it's not Live EC master mode. Every boss except Vorgath enrages. Mostly with 6 dps. And they are using... do you know what that buff is on the toolbar? Get back to me on that. Using the implication of easy is interesting.

Lets make sure everyone has some basic understanding of healing as an annihilation marauder that competent annihilation marauders know. You do zero healing if you're not able to hit something. This is relevant because the fight and how you have to behave affects your output.

Annihilation heals hit 4 players, not 4 players at random, they are the 4 players in the 4m subgroup in the raid frame and not a single heal will touch a player outside that. This is why I specify 4 characters in the opening post of the thread. Healing would be no higher with 20 players.

A true healer scales beyond the 4 person healing that annihilation is limited to.

So we are well informed to interpret fight numbers right?

Toth and Zorn failed run, 10,000hps compared to one healer doing 30,000.

Toth and Zorn successful run, 8800hps compared to 21,000 and 27,000 from two healers

Firebrand and Stormcaller,11,000hps compared to one healer doing 24,000

Vorgath, 6,000hps compared to one healer doing 24,000

Kephess, 7,000hps compared to one healer doing 27,000

Which fight has the most uptime Barnard. The numbers are a hint.

The annihilation marauder has 4 targets and the real healer has to do the other 4 and sometimes all 8 targets.

Unsurprisingly I'm still good with my belief that half the output of 1 healer on 4 targets is a true and honest output of 1 annihilation marauder.

The guys tell me they can get up to a sustained 13,000hps in some fights. But I don't like saying raw numbers because they are gear and buff related. Won't happen on 318 geared character. Stick to saying half a healer.

Anyway Barnard, for homework find out what that buff is they were using and still hitting enrage and feel free to bump the thread up to the top again with another bad faith argument to continue trashing the thread of whether it's right to discuss balance of specs on the PTS forum.

Please?

You lie to my face, you deny hard facts on healing that you can instantly confirm on the PTS on your own, you disregard a streamed NiM operation of quality players with stat overlay and say you want an honest conversation.

Your pov is a bit odd say the least. First of all you assume nobody testet on PTS who dont share your opinion. Second youre constantly accusing others to have no first hand experience, while posting vids from others yourself. Third you take those to generalise and downplay other agurments.

Fourth; you not even acknowledge that youre talking constantly about class stacking.

If you think thats the way, go on.

After 7.0 stealth and ranged classes will rule once more and the warrior classes will be at the bottom - I don't think thats hard to see, even for you. If you think mara would cause balance problems... well, thats your opinion. Imo its bit dishonest and hypocrit to point at the mara as class balance issue, while others classes will doing great.

Your pov is a bit odd say the least. First of all you assume nobody testet on PTS who dont share your opinion. Second youre constantly accusing others to have no first hand experience, while posting vids from others yourself. Third you take those to generalise and downplay other agurments.

Fourth; you not even acknowledge that youre talking constantly about class stacking.

If you think thats the way, go on.

 

After 7.0 stealth and ranged classes will rule once more and the warrior classes will be at the bottom - I don't think thats hard to see, even for you. If you think mara would cause balance problems... well, thats your opinion. Imo its bit dishonest and hypocrit to point at the mara as class balance issue, while others classes will doing great.

Once again nothing to say what I said is wrong

Once again ignoring the question of the thread

Once again inventing scenarios that I never said

Once again crying about how scared you are for pvp

Once again complaining that I don't respect you when you say all the above

Do you understand what disparity is. It's the topic of the thread (woah it's not about sentinels?).

When people are struggling in content the disparity between one spec and another decides how hard it is or even if it's possible.

You've had the opportunity to see a PTS NiM operation run that is probably impossible without what they did.

When PTS endgame goes to live the disparity will be exceptionally obvious because there is no room to bring low output classes or specs.

On live the difficulty is much lower so while specs are not equal you can generally bring a garbage spec or an instantly dead buyer of achievements and as long as everyone else brings high output specs it works out. There's still massive differences in output but the content is generally easy enough to hide it.

So here we are on the PTS forum raising the question of class parity with an example to start before we ship 7.0 to live.

Naturally this means we are on 4 pages of mostly dribbling and crying that sentinel watchman was the example of a high performance spec and not a single word about why it's ok for there to be specs with so much worse output.

Why? Because selfish players "defending" what they play by trash posting.

I reckon the first page was fine.

 

Do you understand what disparity is. It's the topic of the thread (woah it's not about sentinels?).

 

Perhaps if you clarified which "lesser DPS" classes or "lesser Healer" classes you are talking about you would get more discussion. Its hard to discuss disparity when no one knows what is being compared.

Would it.

I didn't notice a single person showing any consideration for why another spec would be so much lower and you're only saying it after I highlighted the fact after 4 pages. So why are we at 4 pages already?

There is clearly not enough of the right kind of people here (and this would require a group effort). The most fervent posters are overflowing with nerf fear and wilful ignorance.

As a healer looking at your numbers, I'd say calling it 1/3 of a healer is a lot more accurate than 1/2 of a healer. It's also strictly AOE/raid healing, so the extent to which it's really unbalanced depends a lot on the ability of the other characters in the group to mitigate spike damage with DCDs. The range on it, which I don't know because Sent is my least played class, is also a consideration. I haven't healed a group of 3-4 sents in challenging conditions on PTS, because class stacking is usually hard to find in groupfinder, so I can't comment on the extent to which their healing compares with the damage mitigation and healing from a mixed class group. Haven't really noticed any exceptional problems in mixed groups though, so I wouldn't anticipate healers asking all the DPS to bring sents to a raid for the healing.

As to the broader questions:

Do the Devs look at the PTS forums for information about class balance?

Yes. Then they ignore it because they have some cool ideas about class mechanics that they want to try, and they are after all, professionals (so it should work right?).

Will we go live with 7.0 with the current PTS class balance?

For the most part yes. If there are classes that the style specific threads give overwhelming feedback on that something is badly broken, there might be a small fix. Think of the changes from the early PTS versions to current for Guardian/Warrior styles. Other than that, what you see now is what you should expect to see on live for 7.0.