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Again Hurting Innocent Players


MadCuzBad

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These 3 changes were implemented to try making conquest more competitive. As you can tell by the leaderboards that they had no effect. The dominating conquest guilds are dominating stronger than they ever have.

 

These 3 changes hurts new characters joining a new guild and also hurts players who form a guild to get right into the action and have to sit there like gimps for a week. They need to be reversed ASAP and serve no purpose other than gimping new guild members and new guild creators who purchase a flagship.

 

Please stop changing things in the game before asking your paying player base first with things like this. This hurts only small people and has zero effect on mega conquest guilds who dominate the boards weekly.

 

1. Upon joining a guild, new guild members no longer earn Guild Conquest Points, Guild XP, Invasion Rewards, and Conqueror Achievements until the next Conquest reset.

2. Example: If a player joins a guild on Friday, they will not be able to contribute to the Guild points and XP until the next Conquest Event (the following Tuesday at 12:00PM UTC).

3. Newly-created Guilds will not be able to accrue any Conquest points or Guild XP until the next Conquest Event.

 

Those 3 things should be reversed ASAP. They should have never been implemented in the first place. Devs really need to communicate a little more with the little players and not completely destroy new guilds, new guild membership, and peoples excitement on getting a new flagship just to appease a few elite conquesters mad about dominating competition in weekly conquest.

 

Do the right thing and reverse these 3 now.

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Yeah. I get why they made the changes, but it just makes things more annoying for legitimate players without really impacting the big guilds that much. I think making it so a guild loses the points a player earned for them if they kick that player was enough to address the bad behavior they were seeing (guilds mass inviting people and then mass kicking them after they reached their conquest goals), the lockout period hurts legitimate players far more than it hurts those massive guilds.

 

I ran into this recently after my guild opened up an alt guild. The whole process was frustrating and annoying, and left me basically just skipping Conquest on those characters for a week. Hopefully they change it back, but I'm not holding my breath.

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OP: Don't overstate your case.

 

The three changes that you cite are, in fact, *ONE* change. Change number 2 is just an example of change number 1, so it isn't a change at all, and change number 3 is a natural consequence of change number 1 (if new members can't contribute to the guild's total until the next weekly reset, then a new guild cannot possibly get Conquest points until the next reset). That is, change 3 isn't, as such, a change, so ultimately the only change you're citing is change 1, and you left out the other change.

 

The actual other change was the key piece in any event, where members who are kicked take this week's points with them (and the guild loses the points).

 

Ultimately, the reason that those guilds win regularly is that they are honking big guilds with lots of active member characters, and *of*course* such guilds win.

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Please stop changing things in the game before asking your paying player base first with things like this. This hurts only small people and has zero effect on mega conquest guilds who dominate the boards weekly.

Those 3 things should be reversed ASAP.

Do the right thing and reverse these 3 now.

 

Not only is this wrong, but also selfish and shines a light on you as such. The changes were made because innocent people were being kicked from a guild on monday and denied their hard-earned benefits. 100% nothing to do with whatever sillyness you attribute to the reasons, but quite clearly a required change. Is it nice that a few rotten apples spoil it for the rest? Not really, but honestly creating a guild and not being prepared to wait a single week on conquest is just the epitome of impatience.

 

As a member of the paying player base I'd be horrified if you spoke for me, so please do not. EVER.

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Yeah. I get why they made the changes, but it just makes things more annoying for legitimate players without really impacting the big guilds that much. I think making it so a guild loses the points a player earned for them if they kick that player was enough to address the bad behavior they were seeing (guilds mass inviting people and then mass kicking them after they reached their conquest goals), the lockout period hurts legitimate players far more than it hurts those massive guilds.

 

I ran into this recently after my guild opened up an alt guild. The whole process was frustrating and annoying, and left me basically just skipping Conquest on those characters for a week. Hopefully they change it back, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

This ^^

The abuse would have been stopped with just denying the guild any XP or CQP from a member they have kicked. Now it's hurting innocent people, small guilds and people with lots of alts.

 

And since ninja inviting was also a problem, I would have just shut down the ability to ginvite on starter planet, or they could have put a cooldown on it, or they could have actually banned the people who were abusing the new players with ninja invite + kick combo.

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Pro Tip: Don't start off your topic by talking about 3 things without first addressing/establishing what those 3 things are whether that be in the body of the post or the title. It makes for an odd/confusing read when nobody knows what exactly it is you're talking about or referring to until getting to the end of your post.

 

You mention "3 things" multiple times before stating what they're are and as such nobody knows what you're talking about unless they skip ahead to where you have 3 things listed out only discover it's not actually 3 different things but instead #2 is an example of #1.

Edited by Darth-Obvious
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These 3 changes were implemented to try making conquest more competitive.

 

The very first sentence and it demonstrates that you don't even understand the reasoning behind those changes. It had nothing to do with making Conquest more competitive, but only with closing several exploits, mainly the Hire and Fire point farming one, that hurt enough new players for them to take a step away from the game.

Edited by Phazonfreak
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The abuse would have been stopped with just denying the guild any XP or CQP from a member they have kicked.

 

One sentence and this guy sums it up. It's that simple. What bioware did was out of proportion and nonsymmetrical to the problem. What they did to fix the issue was unwarrantable and too much. They should think things thru a little more carefully before implementing things. The problem gets fixed WITHOUT the 3 things I displayed on my OP.

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Not only is this wrong, but also selfish and shines a light on you as such. The changes were made because innocent people were being kicked from a guild on monday and denied their hard-earned benefits. 100% nothing to do with whatever sillyness you attribute to the reasons, but quite clearly a required change. Is it nice that a few rotten apples spoil it for the rest? Not really, but honestly creating a guild and not being prepared to wait a single week on conquest is just the epitome of impatience.

 

As a member of the paying player base I'd be horrified if you spoke for me, so please do not. EVER.

 

I was referring to this post describing emotional outbursts, not you. Don't take things so personally it is just a game.

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I was referring to this post describing emotional outbursts, not you. Don't take things so personally it is just a game.

 

Then let's settle down and reiterate the points:

 

-BioWare did not implement those changes to make Conquest more competitive. They would have to change the mechanic from the ground up to do that, i.e. take into account member count for leaderboards, etc.

 

-They also did not change the mechanic out of the blue, but because there were more and more complaints coming from the player base and they had to do something, especially to appease new players who would potentially get turned off the game.

 

-The change to retract Conquest points from the kicked members aimed at squashing the rampant hire and fire exploit.

 

-The change to not retract Conquest points from the guild if a member left on his/her own accord aimed at preventing score manipulation and potential blackmailing through guild decoys from other guilds.

 

-The change to implement a one week grace period when joining a guild aimed at preventing the sabotage of other guilds through guild hopping.

 

All of those changes make Conquest more inconvenient in its initial stage and there could very well be an argument for allowing alts into a guild without the need for the grace period, but still those changes were successful in solving all the problems that I listed above. And as JediQuaker already said, it is only one week after all.

Edited by Phazonfreak
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I mean seriously? You guys are arguing about one week (or less) worth of CQ points?

I can perhaps see the grief if the losses were permanent, but it's just for a week or less. Perspective!

😇

 

Sure. But it is unfortunate for newer / smaller guilds who really need all the guild XP they can to help level up for the higher XP boosts, better guild perks, etc. I know most people probably are in guilds that are high level and the idea of the passive 15% xp boost and anything else they want to use is just a given. But for smaller guilds this change is more penalizing than for the big ones.

 

I run a small guild of about 15 people and their alts. Having a new member come in and right away be able to chip in a week's worth of conquest would help out quite a bit.

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Sure. But it is unfortunate for newer / smaller guilds who really need all the guild XP they can to help level up for the higher XP boosts, better guild perks, etc. I know most people probably are in guilds that are high level and the idea of the passive 15% xp boost and anything else they want to use is just a given. But for smaller guilds this change is more penalizing than for the big ones.

 

I run a small guild of about 15 people and their alts. Having a new member come in and right away be able to chip in a week's worth of conquest would help out quite a bit.

 

What you said is why I made this thread. The only thing that should have been done is that if you kick a member you lose all the points they made the guild. The rest ONLY hurts small and or newer guilds. It has no effect on the top 10 conquest guilds at all. Bioware needs to think a little more before making certain changes.

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The Mega Guilds have always and will always remain dominant in Conquest as long as it remains a Leaderboard system.

 

Unless the devs choose to rework Conquest into a Challenge system don't expect to ever get your guild to the top without playing the same tactics as the mega guilds.

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What you said is why I made this thread. The only thing that should have been done is that if you kick a member you lose all the points they made the guild. The rest ONLY hurts small and or newer guilds. It has no effect on the top 10 conquest guilds at all. Bioware needs to think a little more before making certain changes.

 

The problem is that with this approach, it opens up a whole new exploit where the big guilds (the ones with lots of alts) can shift points around between their sister guilds simply by kicking some alts (taking their points with them) and adding them to the sister guild while having other alts (of the same players) leave the guild (leaving their conquest points behind). It also allows the really big guilds to circumvent the member cap by havin some alts leave while other alts are added. This is one of the cases where Bioware actually did apply some thought to the change they were making and recognized another potential exploit. The week waiting period stops the transfer of CQ points between guilds completely.

 

For example: Guild B is a sister guild (or for that matter an allied guild) of Guild A on the same faction. Guild B is in 3rd place in conquest for a planet with no realistic chance to catch the leader. Guild A is in a close fought battle for the top spot on another planet. So, Guild B kicks a bunch of high CQ point alts (that take their points with them) and guild A has a bunch of players (from the same accounts kicked from Guild B) leave the guild, leaving their points behind. Guild A then recruits those kicked from Guild B and increases their conquest points and takes over the top spot through an exploit. Since the alts belong to the same accounts, it doesn't impact whether or not that account gets the title.

 

Bioware foresaw this exploit and shut it down before it could start by putting a week delay into generating conquest points for a guild. It only takes 5 or 6 alts to generate a small yield CQ goal so the impact on small guilds reaching that goal is next to none except for the one week where it is founded.

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The problem is that with this approach, it opens up a whole new exploit where the big guilds (the ones with lots of alts) can shift points around between their sister guilds simply by kicking some alts (taking their points with them) and adding them to the sister guild while having other alts (of the same players) leave the guild (leaving their conquest points behind). It also allows the really big guilds to circumvent the member cap by havin some alts leave while other alts are added. This is one of the cases where Bioware actually did apply some thought to the change they were making and recognized another potential exploit. The week waiting period stops the transfer of CQ points between guilds completely.

 

For example: Guild B is a sister guild (or for that matter an allied guild) of Guild A on the same faction. Guild B is in 3rd place in conquest for a planet with no realistic chance to catch the leader. Guild A is in a close fought battle for the top spot on another planet. So, Guild B kicks a bunch of high CQ point alts (that take their points with them) and guild A has a bunch of players (from the same accounts kicked from Guild B) leave the guild, leaving their points behind. Guild A then recruits those kicked from Guild B and increases their conquest points and takes over the top spot through an exploit. Since the alts belong to the same accounts, it doesn't impact whether or not that account gets the title.

 

Bioware foresaw this exploit and shut it down before it could start by putting a week delay into generating conquest points for a guild. It only takes 5 or 6 alts to generate a small yield CQ goal so the impact on small guilds reaching that goal is next to none except for the one week where it is founded.

 

You misunderstand how Conquest worked before. There would have been no "taking your points with you" because, before these changes were implemented, joining a new guild didn't mean all of your Conquest points before that suddenly counted towards the new guild. I ran into this with a friend I'd recruited to the game. They played and earned a good amount of Conquest points, almost enough to meet the personal target, but weren't guilded at all. I invited them to the guild I was apart of. As Conquest used to work, none of their Conquest points prior to joining the guild counted towards the guild and, more importantly for their purposes, they wouldn't receive the guild reward unless they earned 50k while in the guild (something they were still able to do on the day they joined at the time since the changes being discussed in this thread hadn't been implemented yet).

 

So, assuming Bioware didn't change that (and they'd have no reason to), the members that moved to Guild A from Guild B in your example would be, at the time of joining, starting fresh on their Conquest contributions. This wouldn't help them in their situation at all, the characters that left Guild A would just lose out on their guild rewards for the week and the characters from Guild B would be at 0 contribution until they earned points while in Guild A, something they could have done with alts that were already in Guild A.

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You misunderstand how Conquest worked before. There would have been no "taking your points with you" because, before these changes were implemented, joining a new guild didn't mean all of your Conquest points before that suddenly counted towards the new guild. I ran into this with a friend I'd recruited to the game. They played and earned a good amount of Conquest points, almost enough to meet the personal target, but weren't guilded at all. I invited them to the guild I was apart of. As Conquest used to work, none of their Conquest points prior to joining the guild counted towards the guild and, more importantly for their purposes, they wouldn't receive the guild reward unless they earned 50k while in the guild (something they were still able to do on the day they joined at the time since the changes being discussed in this thread hadn't been implemented yet).

 

So, assuming Bioware didn't change that (and they'd have no reason to), the members that moved to Guild A from Guild B in your example would be, at the time of joining, starting fresh on their Conquest contributions. This wouldn't help them in their situation at all, the characters that left Guild A would just lose out on their guild rewards for the week and the characters from Guild B would be at 0 contribution until they earned points while in Guild A, something they could have done with alts that were already in Guild A.

 

I was just about to say this but you beat me to it.

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The main issue here is people abused the system, and BW over reacted..... They do this all the time, it's happened on other occasions. Seeing as petitions aren't against the ToS, as we've seen, maybe you can put one together, to get the system improved, so that, people can start earning the points as soon as the join the guild, but if the guild kicks them, they lose the points. That way, people are getting the points, and contributing, but the nefarious guilds that did the 'hire & fire' **** can't benefit..... Also, would do no harm to actually go after the people that abused the system in the first place.
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The main issue here is people abused the system, and BW over reacted..... They do this all the time, it's happened on other occasions. Seeing as petitions aren't against the ToS, as we've seen, maybe you can put one together, to get the system improved, so that, people can start earning the points as soon as the join the guild, but if the guild kicks them, they lose the points. That way, people are getting the points, and contributing, but the nefarious guilds that did the 'hire & fire' **** can't benefit..... Also, would do no harm to actually go after the people that abused the system in the first place.

 

From the Rules of Conduct: "Petition posts are frowned on. If you have an issue with the game, please discuss it in a civil and informed fashion."

 

https://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

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You misunderstand how Conquest worked before. There would have been no "taking your points with you" because, before these changes were implemented, joining a new guild didn't mean all of your Conquest points before that suddenly counted towards the new guild. I ran into this with a friend I'd recruited to the game. They played and earned a good amount of Conquest points, almost enough to meet the personal target, but weren't guilded at all. I invited them to the guild I was apart of. As Conquest used to work, none of their Conquest points prior to joining the guild counted towards the guild and, more importantly for their purposes, they wouldn't receive the guild reward unless they earned 50k while in the guild (something they were still able to do on the day they joined at the time since the changes being discussed in this thread hadn't been implemented yet).

 

So, assuming Bioware didn't change that (and they'd have no reason to), the members that moved to Guild A from Guild B in your example would be, at the time of joining, starting fresh on their Conquest contributions. This wouldn't help them in their situation at all, the characters that left Guild A would just lose out on their guild rewards for the week and the characters from Guild B would be at 0 contribution until they earned points while in Guild A, something they could have done with alts that were already in Guild A.

 

Yes, you can't/couldn't add your already earned points to the new guild, but what DWho describes still would work as a way to circumvent the guild member limit of 1000. Alts leave the guild making room for new people or other players/characters to be invited, for example people who still have the big points one time objectives open.

As it is now with the changes a guild has to reach the goal with the members it has when the CQ week starts, no tricks with leaving/joining, no help from allies or sister guild, no mass ninja invites to boost the points on short notice, just the team they were at the start of the race.

A new player can't contribute until the next week yes, but what's so bad about that if they have all the hopefully many many following weeks of their guild membership to contribute and earn their guild rewards? The rewards really aren't that valuable either that players can't miss one if they want to change the guild, after all it's just one week.

If you are guild hopping, well then, tough luck, that now has the small consequence of missing the guild reward each time.

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From the Rules of Conduct: "Petition posts are frowned on. If you have an issue with the game, please discuss it in a civil and informed fashion."

 

https://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

 

See...I thought that too, but they did it on the GSF thread, and I even asked for the CM's to confirm, but they ignored the thread, so maybe they are ok.

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Yes, you can't/couldn't add your already earned points to the new guild, but what DWho describes still would work as a way to circumvent the guild member limit of 1000. Alts leave the guild making room for new people or other players/characters to be invited, for example people who still have the big points one time objectives open.

As it is now with the changes a guild has to reach the goal with the members it has when the CQ week starts, no tricks with leaving/joining, no help from allies or sister guild, no mass ninja invites to boost the points on short notice, just the team they were at the start of the race.

A new player can't contribute until the next week yes, but what's so bad about that if they have all the hopefully many many following weeks of their guild membership to contribute and earn their guild rewards? The rewards really aren't that valuable either that players can't miss one if they want to change the guild, after all it's just one week.

If you are guild hopping, well then, tough luck, that now has the small consequence of missing the guild reward each time.

 

We disagree with you completely but thanks for disagreeing with us.

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From the Rules of Conduct: "Petition posts are frowned on. If you have an issue with the game, please discuss it in a civil and informed fashion."

 

https://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

also from that:

 

Using the words EA, Electronic Arts, BioWare, LucasArts or any Developer or SWTOR CS member’s name in a thread topic is frowned on.

 

Those whose names must not be spoken must do a lot of frowning.

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These 3 changes were implemented to try making conquest more competitive. As you can tell by the leaderboards that they had no effect. The dominating conquest guilds are dominating stronger than they ever have.

 

These 3 changes hurts new characters joining a new guild and also hurts players who form a guild to get right into the action and have to sit there like gimps for a week. They need to be reversed ASAP and serve no purpose other than gimping new guild members and new guild creators who purchase a flagship.

 

Please stop changing things in the game before asking your paying player base first with things like this. This hurts only small people and has zero effect on mega conquest guilds who dominate the boards weekly.

 

1. Upon joining a guild, new guild members no longer earn Guild Conquest Points, Guild XP, Invasion Rewards, and Conqueror Achievements until the next Conquest reset.

2. Example: If a player joins a guild on Friday, they will not be able to contribute to the Guild points and XP until the next Conquest Event (the following Tuesday at 12:00PM UTC).

3. Newly-created Guilds will not be able to accrue any Conquest points or Guild XP until the next Conquest Event.

 

Those 3 things should be reversed ASAP. They should have never been implemented in the first place. Devs really need to communicate a little more with the little players and not completely destroy new guilds, new guild membership, and peoples excitement on getting a new flagship just to appease a few elite conquesters mad about dominating competition in weekly conquest.

 

Do the right thing and reverse these 3 now.

 

you are 100000$ WRONG, those were made almost in time to avoid people entering to a guild just to gain the 1st spot to get the planet and then leave the guild.

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