So I’m conflicted I have started to romance Kira but it just doesn’t feel right. She is my Padawan and I don’t know lore wise if in the old republic the Jedi’s view on this. I did some research and found out that your character and Kira are basically the exact same age but still the whole she is your Padawan thing is just weird. What do you guys think of this? Is the romance ethical? What is the Jedi’s view on romance? What did you do? Please discuss.

My referral http://www.swtor.com/r/xkLnzL

So I’m conflicted I have started to romance Kira but it just doesn’t feel right. She is my Padawan and I don’t know lore wise if in the old republic the Jedi’s view on this. I did some research and found out that your character and Kira are basically the exact same age but still the whole she is your Padawan thing is just weird. What do you guys think of this? Is the romance ethical? What is the Jedi’s view on romance? What did you do? Please discuss.

 

 

My referral http://www.swtor.com/r/xkLnzL

You're basically asking the same kind of stuff that's in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178694 alot of us have posted our thoughts and views in it join in!

So I’m conflicted I have started to romance Kira but it just doesn’t feel right. She is my Padawan and I don’t know lore wise if in the old republic the Jedi’s view on this. I did some research and found out that your character and Kira are basically the exact same age but still the whole she is your Padawan thing is just weird. What do you guys think of this? Is the romance ethical? What is the Jedi’s view on romance? What did you do? Please discuss.

 

 

My referral http://www.swtor.com/r/xkLnzL

You both met each other as Padawans and you're roughly the same age. Kira acts more like the Knight's partner and equal than a student, and she has a lot of life experience outside the Order. It's fine from an ethical perspective, but the Jedi in this time period forbid unions between Jedi who were not both raised their whole lives in the Order and Kira began training as an adult.

The relationship that is more dubious is between the Consular and Nadia because she is definitely your student, younger than you, and she has little life experience in the greater galaxy beyond what you're showing her so you got a lot of influence on her development.

I interpreted Kira as not officially being your Padawan. I always interpreted the story as her still being Kiwiiks's Padawan; things just worked out that you ended up teaching her for a time.

Same here; it strikes me as more of an administrative (for lack of a better term) arrangement than an actual instructive one. (Because having a Knight and their Padawan running around the galaxy apparently looks better than having a Knight running around the galaxy with someone else's Padawan. I don't know...)

You both met each other as Padawans and you're roughly the same age. Kira acts more like the Knight's partner and equal than a student, and she has a lot of life experience outside the Order.

Which, if you think about it, is not all that dissimilar from the way the Knight and Orgus Din (who also, we find out later, grew up outside the Order - on Rishi) treat each other. Maybe there's an element of... like Master, like Knight there....

The Consular when talking with Iresso mentions that romance is not forbidden if the people in question are considered trustworthy, though it's still discouraged.

As for Kira, I don't see any issue with it. Honestly I can't remember if she ever was actually assigned as the JKs Padawan (IIRC, the phrasing is "train her as if she were you Padawan")

Take off your referral from your post. Its against the rules.

Sorry didn’t know

You both met each other as Padawans and you're roughly the same age. Kira acts more like the Knight's partner and equal than a student, and she has a lot of life experience outside the Order. It's fine from an ethical perspective, but the Jedi in this time period forbid unions between Jedi who were not both raised their whole lives in the Order and Kira began training as an adult.

 

The relationship that is more dubious is between the Consular and Nadia because she is definitely your student, younger than you, and she has little life experience in the greater galaxy beyond what you're showing her so you got a lot of influence on her development.

That makes sense also eases my mind of am I really romancing my student?? Also after chap 1 your both knights thank you so much for replying really helped.

You're basically asking the same kind of stuff that's in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178694 alot of us have posted our thoughts and views in it join in!

Oh wow this is a good conversation thanks for taking the time to reply!

So I’m conflicted I have started to romance Kira but it just doesn’t feel right. She is my Padawan and I don’t know lore wise if in the old republic the Jedi’s view on this. I did some research and found out that your character and Kira are basically the exact same age but still the whole she is your Padawan thing is just weird. What do you guys think of this? Is the romance ethical? What is the Jedi’s view on romance? What did you do? Please discuss.

You're overthinking it.

Even if the two are roughly equal the Knight is told to act as Kira's teacher. That puts the Knight in a position of power and influence over their student... that right there is what makes it unethical.

Once someone with a position of power starts going after their underlings, for lack of a better word, they are exploiting their position and thus being unethical. They can't know if the underling is reciprocating because they feel they have to or because they want to. Simply asking the Underling doesn't really work because they might not feel they can speak freely. Might lose their job/status for example. Whenever such a dynamic comes into play it is rarely healthy and usually is just about the boss/teacher/master exercising their authority for personal gain.

Note: This would also apply to any romance in which the PC is in a position of authority/power over the partner/victim... which likely means all of them... gotta love how people can't separate their power fantasies from their sex fantasies.

I interpreted Kira as not officially being your Padawan. I always interpreted the story as her still being Kiwiiks's Padawan; things just worked out that you ended up teaching her for a time.

This is a general beef I have with the Knight story: all tell, no show. Kira and the PC can't go 30 seconds without one or the other saying she's the player's Padawan, but there really isn't much Padawan-ing going on. Sorta same for the PC and Orgus, but in the opposite direction.

Personally, with that kind of in mind, I don't think there's anything "unethical" about it outside of not being very Jedi-like, though I'm more miffed you can't turn her down without being all "BEWARE ATTACHMENTS THEY LEAD TO THE DARK SIDE" (which, ironically, I guess is one case where she's actually getting the Padawan treatment?).

Actualy, it is considered problematic only last few decades cause of changes of edu system. Most of the history there was no problem with this or it was suggested because teacher had to teach student everything about life and then let him / her go when time come. :-D Actually, I do not see any problem with SWTOR romances, everything is consent. :-P

One intersting thing:

She is not innocent old hag. :-D

This is a general beef I have with the Knight story: all tell, no show. Kira and the PC can't go 30 seconds without one or the other saying she's the player's Padawan, but there really isn't much Padawan-ing going on. Sorta same for the PC and Orgus, but in the opposite direction.

 

Personally, with that kind of in mind, I don't think there's anything "unethical" about it outside of not being very Jedi-like, though I'm more miffed you can't turn her down without being all "BEWARE ATTACHMENTS THEY LEAD TO THE DARK SIDE" (which, ironically, I guess is one case where she's actually getting the Padawan treatment?).

OP is applying real word ethics/morality to a culture and society very different from our own. In other words, he's ethnocentric. Since the characters don't have a problem with it, evidenced by their reactions, neither should the OP.

This is a general beef I have with the Knight story: all tell, no show. Kira and the PC can't go 30 seconds without one or the other saying she's the player's Padawan, but there really isn't much Padawan-ing going on. Sorta same for the PC and Orgus, but in the opposite direction.

 

Personally, with that kind of in mind, I don't think there's anything "unethical" about it outside of not being very Jedi-like, though I'm more miffed you can't turn her down without being all "BEWARE ATTACHMENTS THEY LEAD TO THE DARK SIDE" (which, ironically, I guess is one case where she's actually getting the Padawan treatment?).

At least with Orgus, the relationship begins with him explicitly announcing his intention of taking you on as a Padawan. With Kira, you are simply told to take care of her "as if she were your own Padawan." Which makes it sound like a temporary arrangement rather than anything official.

For that matter, there's also the fact you don't get promoted to Jedi Master at the end of the first act, when Kira herself gets knighted. (In general Star Wars, successfully training a Padawan to Jedi Knight is how one becomes a Jedi Master.)

This is why I believe Kira is not meant to be officially seen as your Padawan. When she refers to you as her master, I see it as just an expression of respect... as well as a way of getting around the fact that addressing you by name in this game (which has an MC you name yourself, and fully voiced dialogue) is... difficult.

Actualy, it is considered problematic only last few decades cause of changes of edu system. Most of the history there was no problem with this or it was suggested because teacher had to teach student everything about life and then let him / her go when time come. :-D Actually, I do not see any problem with SWTOR romances, everything is consent. :-P

 

One intersting thing:

During Jedi storyline on Tython is mentioned that many padawans take a ritual to see Kholovish. At the end of IA finale is on the old holo Kholovish asked if she still spends her nights with padawans.

She is not innocent old hag. :-D

Uh, maybe some cultures would not have a problem with it, but every one I know of would have had a big problem with it. It is certainly not something from the last few decades.

Especially considering the primary educators for most people for thousands of years was their parents.

I don't know where you get that about Kolovish. The exact quote is "are those earnest Padawans keeping you up at night?"

If you see sexual innuendo in that, then you must see it in anything... (especially considering you can participate in the ritual you just mentioned and there isn't anything even remotely romantic about it)

Uh, maybe some cultures would not have a problem with it, but every one I know of would have had a big problem with it. It is certainly not something from the last few decades.

Especially considering the primary educators for most people for thousands of years was their parents.

 

I don't know where you get that about Kolovish. The exact quote is "are those earnest Padawans keeping you up at night?"

If you see sexual innuendo in that, then you must see it in anything... (especially considering you can participate in the ritual you just mentioned and there isn't anything even remotely romantic about it)

Some cultures about Medditerraean sea... For thousands of years there were private tutors.

That's that quote! :-D Exactly! When you do that quest there is nothing romantic or sexual. That's why I was interrested in this dialog and thought about it. :-D Maybe I see sexual ehm... innuendo (what is it?), but I can assure you, that I don't see it everywhere. Maybe I am folled up by TV, net, magazines... because this age is oversexualized and sex is everywhere and therefore I see that sexual whotever where it's not. (I blame all human society. :-D :-D) But I find that idea funny - masters warns padawans to not have relationships, flings, etc. and Kholovish is "sabotaging" their efforts and gather informations from (chosen) padawans and nobody knows truth behind this ritual. :-D :-D

Yes, I am very strange human with very strange sense of humor. :-D :-D

If you think this romance is sketchy, wait until you meet Nadia.

Mako is the sleaziest I find. Teenaged orphan constantly tells the BH no until everyone she is close to is dead, she has no-where else to go and the BH finally wears her down. Creepy.

Mako is the sleaziest I find. Teenaged orphan constantly tells the BH no until everyone she is close to is dead, she has no-where else to go and the BH finally wears her down. Creepy.

Not only that but you later find out that in reality she is not an orphan but actually a Motoko Kusanagi-like failed Republic SpecOps project killing machine - and hide it from her. (might be misremembering the timeline around the romance there, forget when that happens).

But there's just something about the male Consular voice acting in the romance that made me actually delete the character eventually because it was so creepy.

Mako is the sleaziest I find. Teenaged orphan constantly tells the BH no until everyone she is close to is dead, she has no-where else to go and the BH finally wears her down. Creepy.

It doesn't seem that creepy to me.

Probably because of how I always interpreted the BH's own age. Keep in mind that the PC characters are supposed to be pretty young themselves. (Somewhere in the late teens to early twenties range.) And whereas Nadia is explicitly your student, Mako is more along the lines of being a partner.

The Jedi Knight/Kira Carsen romance isn't too problematic, since you're both basically around the same age (she might even be a bit older) and you're at the same maturity level. She also gets raised to Knight by the end of the first chapter, and as such the whole 'Padawan' thing is more of an in-joke, IMO. She's never really even officially your Padawan. From the time Bela Kiwiiks is incapacitated, you pretty much go right into the Chapter 1 finale, and then she gets elevated to Knightood by the Council.

You both shouldn't be getting it on regardless, since it's against the Jedi Code. But as far as IRL sensibilities go, it's basically just a couple 20 year olds.

The Republic Soldier romances are both worthy of court martial. No military leader should ever be bedding subordinate soldiers that follow them into battle. No commander that would do so is worthy of their rank or of being saluted. It's something only a pasty civilian writer would think was compelling.

However, the TRULY creepy relationship, is between Nolan North's male consular, who sounds middle aged, and Nadia Grell, who sounds like 14. She clearly worships him, and her father hoped Nolan North would teach her. And he basically molests her. The romance is completely creepy and wrong, by both in-game and out of game sensibilities. (And yeah, people have argued about the Consular being young, and I can see that with the female Consular...But Nolan North sounds like...a fifty year old man.)

The female Consular/Iresso romance is by contrast, one of the most mature and reasonable.

As for Mako...The bounty hunter is still definitely way older, but it's a far more acceptable romance. She's not his student or his ward (which Nadia basically is after her father expresses hope that the Consular will look after her). However, I still think it's better to let Mako end up with Torian (or Akaavi, I guess...), and romance Lana later. (You know you will, anyways). The BH banging Lana makes it slightly more believable that she's following him around everywhere and so loyal, as a Sith to a non-Force user.