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Juggernaut Feedback Thread

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Starknaga's Avatar

10.11.2021 , 03:56 PM | #11
Guys, I usually don't write on this forum as any criticism is ignored or posts with criticism disappear. I am not here to troll, but I am here because I love the game (I sub for almost 4 years now and play daily) and I am concerned with your decisions.
I beg you, don't do it guys, you are trying to fix something that does not need fixing and you are going to ruin the experience for raiders, pvp players and also many story mode enjoyers.
Just read comment sections on youtube etc... I don't know where did you get that idea that we have too many skills to use... This made the game actually fun to play, this made builds interesting, this gave us flexibility.

Back to Juggernauts.

Juggernaut was never the best DPS and it never was the best tank, but it had all these flexible abilities that made it like a swiss knife - able to cope in every situation and do some things others could not - it had its niche. Juggernaut is considered best for beginner players as it has easy rotations and very few skills in them (especially immortal spec).
I dont like all these changes but what you are doing now with Jugg class is you are basically nerfing and killing Juggernaut, you are removing skills that made jugg a jugg. This is very bad setup that you have to choose between A, B and C (level 70, level 80), as having all three of these made the class fun to play and made it different from other classes at the same time.

Give us A, B and C and put something more interesting to pick - for example which of these three we would like to buff/improve. But don't make Juggernaut players decide which limb they want to amputate because it feels like that at the moment.

I know that nobody cares, but if things stay as they are this will make the game less fun, raiding less fun and people like me are going to leave for something more exciting. Guys just leave things as they are now, and give us new flashpoints, operations, story - everybody will be happy. Don't kill my Jugg

Kittenji's Avatar

10.12.2021 , 03:59 AM | #12
Immortal Disicipline
I will preface this by saying I've played Immortal Juggernaut as my main since about 2012, when I played on my dads old account when I was 12, up to this day.
The Gameplay
Positive notes here folks, Juggernaut feels, pretty much exactly the same combat wise. None of the core abilities are removed, we have all 3 of our large aggro gains. Sitting in Force Choke, Backhand, and Crushing Blow, Chilling Scream and Furious Power were both removed, I don't really care about Chilling Scream it has never held a large place in my rotation, if ever, it's more a PvP ability than a PvE one, but I did use it sometimes, but I'm not sad to see Chilling Scream Go. I don't understand why Furious Power was removed, It was our newest ability, it was a great additional to every Juggernauts kit, especially Immortal when used in tandem with Crushing Blow, but it's gone now, It sucks to see it go but it's not a deal breaker. I'm confused as to why, but it's alright I guess.
Sweeping Slash
Yes, I am giving Sweeping Slash it's own category. This thing is terrible. Immortal has always had the worst AoE aggro gain there is. Sweeping Slash does so little damage that it was actually more effective to use your harder hitting single target abilities, and spamming saber reflect in AoE pulls to keep aggro, over ever using Sweeping Slash. And now the fact that Sweeping Slash is a level 20 choice, this ability is a non-pick at this point. You can either choose to use Sweeping Slash over and over dealing minimal damage, getting no additional aggro generation from the ability, unlike Discharge from Darkness Assassin. At this point it's most likely better to choose Projected Scream at level 20 to instead choose to deal the upwards of about 15-16k damage across as many enemies that are behind the main target for 3 rage., rather than using Sweeping Slash to get only 5k at the cost of 2 full rage. This ability wasn't buffed, and it's just, a non-pick at this point. It's not even as good as Sweeping Slash, because you would have to use 4 rage from Sweeping Slash to generate as much aggro as Vicious Slash gives from 2 rage., as it's 5k damage (Sweeping) v 9l-10k (Vicious.)
The Level 70
This is, just terrible. I think this shines the most because it's possibly the worst choice possible. As I have heard, Assassin tanks are keeping their cheese tactics via Force Shroud and the like, which is fine it's one of their greatest upsides and is cool, but meanwhile while they're keeping that. We can only choose between one of our 3 best dcds.
1: Saber Reflect - Is not only a DcD, it's an offensive ability as well thanks to the reflect, and an aggro gain. This is possibly the most unique ability that Immortal has, as it covers 3 different niches with one button. Aggro, you got it. Damage and Defense? You got it if it's single target. This could almost always be a guaranteed pick to me just because of its low cooldown and versatility. It is a near integral part of Immortals defensive cooldown Kit.
2: Mad Dash - Is almost a guaranteed pick as well, because it's Immortals only self standing Mobility (aka being able to use it on your own without needing someone around). And is a guaranteed defense chance for roughly 2 seconds, AND does damage.This ability is, once again, an integral part of Immortals sustainability.
3: Intimidating Roar - Once again, it's not exactly an integral ability, but it is an ability that has an extremely short CD, (1 minute), cooldown that can stun 8 enemies, and then also reduce their damage by 15% for 10 seconds. It's an extremely use ability in every AoE pull as it gives Immortal a large amount of sustain, but also extremely used in boss fights as used off cooldown or as a DCD, reduces the damage you will take by 15%, and the damage your allies take by 15% since it's a debuff on the enemy.
You all are forcing Immortal to choose between 3 of their most unique and useful abilities, taking away 2 of our defensive abilities, while allowing tanks like Assassin to keep their entire cheese mechanics, and quite nice defensive abilities while neutering our own sustain.
This is a net nerf. We:
1: Lost Furious Power
2: Lose 2 major defensive cooldowns
3: Got a slight buff in Enrage.
4: Get slight buffs in Aegis Assault and Crushing Blow

We're not a stealth tank like Assassin so we lose out on abilities like that, we don't really have any major cheese abilities like Assassin (with the exception of Mad Dash which is now a choice between Saber Reflect and also Intimidating Roar). It feels like Immortal is getting hit a lot harder than other classes. What could you do for 70, I don't know, but having all 3 of our extremely strong defensive cooldowns in a single choice, really hurts.

All in all, it feels like I'm playing Juggernaut, just a gutted, less fun version without mad dash and saber reflect.

Lord_Arawn's Avatar

10.12.2021 , 06:07 AM | #13
I played with Vengeance

Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?

No, many skills are missing, but with the right changes it can improve a lot. The combined use of Chilling Scream and the Piercing Chill was perfect for PVE, now the class has simply lost one of its few force skills, a skill that is classic. By forcing the player to choose between Saber Reflect and Endure Pain you simply end the class. It was boring to play with the class, in the AOE attack at a distance, Chilling Scream is lacking, which sometimes does much better than Sweeping Slash. In addition Saber Reflect and Endure Pain are essential for the gameplay of the class, especially flashpoints, the first is very useful when you are facing many enemies at once, the last, when facing many difficult bosses, is this skill that will save the character!

My suggestions:

At level 80 take Through Passion and make us choose between Endure Pain, Pooled Hatred and Crushing Fist.

At level 70 make us choose between Saber Reflect, Through Passion and Mad Dash.

As Force Skewer is not ready yet, leave it with the effects and animation of Chilling Scream + Piercing Chill

You might as well improve some of our skills, instead of just taking it away, I think the cost to you will be the same. For example, they could make Force Push and Force Chocke hit more than one enemy, the animation for that you already have, some characters have already used it in the classic game. It doesn't cost to please the base of the players a little, don't you think?
PS: Give us more customization options for Lana Beniko!

Starknaga's Avatar

10.13.2021 , 08:31 AM | #14
I agree with both players above.
But I still believe that making a choice between saber reflect and mad dash is a bad decision.
These are iconic juggernaut skills and they are being used all the time, for me they are constantly on cooldown.

I watched developers stream and I understand what they are looking to do - for example I play also assassin tank, and I have attacks bind to keys 1-12, but I go maximum to button 6-7 and I start over - they can remove remaining 6 skills (keys 7-12) and it wont be a huge deal for me.
Other classes also have skills that are useful at beginner levels but then get replaced with stronger skills and you stop to use them.

But in juggernaut's case it's different and they need special treatment as most of their skills are usable and are used all the time on flashpoints and operations, not to mention PvP. Personally I did not say anything about other classes, its OK, we will get used to it. But in this case it's a class breaking nerf as it is now.

Juggernaut iconic skills to keep jugg play like jugg - enraged defense, taunts, force choke, mad dash, saber reflect + saber ward (I would combine them into a single skill) smash, force charge - you can see these used all the time.

Useless skills - saber throw (nobody uses it in their rotation as it's weak atm, its used as a taunt), sweeping slash is very situational and I don't use it too often and I don't see people using it (maybe if it got buffed players would use it more often).

How I play:

I always mad dash into the enemy ranks (it works as a charge and AOE), smash them with AOE, and then use saber reflect when they are all firing at me. It looks just epic seeing all that damage and flashing - its super fun! It makes jugg look like that tough guy who always charges head on - as it should be.
For me removing or having to choose between mad dash and saber reflect is a disaster

AmphysvenaCorp's Avatar

10.13.2021 , 01:10 PM | #15
For Juggernaut the only thing I'd like to have is the old Ravager animation. It was really awesome.

Also, Force Choke NEEDS to come back. What the hell were you thinking? You practically removed the most iconic ability of the Sith Warrior. Never do that again.

AdjeYo's Avatar

10.14.2021 , 03:12 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AmphysvenaCorp View Post
For Juggernaut the only thing I'd like to have is the old Ravager animation. It was really awesome.

Also, Force Choke NEEDS to come back. What the hell were you thinking? You practically removed the most iconic ability of the Sith Warrior. Never do that again.
Force Choke is still baseline for all Juggernaut specs

SithKoriandr's Avatar

10.14.2021 , 08:55 AM | #17
I won't lie, I don't see Mad Dash as iconic with Juggernaut, but maybe that's because I don't recall it being an ability when the game released. Force Choke though. Besides Juggernaut, just the movies!

I do feel Project and Shock were Iconic on their respective classes and they got rid of them. :/
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Kazjan's Avatar

Yesterday , 02:18 AM | #18
Juggernaut play pretty much the same but the only change i think might need to be revise is where the placement of skills are on the new tree. Tanking doesn't feel the same not sure what missing but i think it the damage it feels like it take much longer to kill things.

Also, I'm not sure if this was done on purpose or mistake but is there a reason why Force choke is not a lvl 61 skill and Force Push level 51? These skills are core skill from the core game. I think maybe revisiting when we get our skill back might be much better