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Chapter 12, makes even less sense for non force users.(SPOILERS)


TalonVII

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This is really starting to get on my nerves. I've played the chapter 4 times. JK, SI, Trooper and IA. For the force users, this chapter makes clear sense. Plus the addition of a new lightsaber tuned to deal with Arcann is a nice deal.

 

But for non force users, this is just a long line of "This story was really written for force users, but we're slamming the round peg into a square hole for the non force users."

 

This has gotten beyond silly now. Being able to see Marr? The lame "you've been touched by Valkorian, so now you can glimpse the force". Just really shows how down hill(least for me anyways) the story has gotten.

 

I've criticized the "all roads lead to 1 approach" and it's really starting to bite the story in the posterior for non force users. At this point I don't know what to say. Granted still want to continue on in the story because it makes a lot of sense with my JK and SI, but I'm about done trying to get my Agent and Trooper through the story.

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What I did with my trooper is just completely disregard any advice given to me from Force users. Marr, Satele, Valkorion, even Lana. Every guidance they offer is some Force-related nonsense. You must evolve, you must transcend beyond your old self, blahblahblah. I play a soldier. Soldiers operate with what they have and fight what they can see, they don't search their souls for the answer that will break the advance of the enemy.

 

Satele and Marr told us the knights are on a whole different level as an order from the jedi and the sith. If that was true, they wouldn't be dropping like flies every time our character fought with them. Arcann won the war because of naval superiority. If you control the skies, victory is yours.

 

If Satele wants to let the Force guide her, whatever this means, fine. Every non-force sensitive character I run through the story will stick to his previous experience and make choices based on that.

 

P.S. It also helps that I roleplay my trooper to lose his faith in the Jedi order after the events of Rishi and Yavin. I mean, we sacrificed a lot to free Revan and this is the result? Kudos to the Jedi council for their inability to see his madness.

Edited by starwarsfansix
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What I did with my trooper is just completely disregard any advice given to me from Force users. Marr, Satele, Valkorion, even Lana. Every guidance they offer is some Force-related nonsense. You must evolve, you must transcend beyond your old self, blahblahblah. I play a soldier. Soldiers operate with what they have and fight what they can see, they don't search their souls for the answer that will break the advance of the enemy.

 

Satele and Marr told us the knights are on a whole different level as an order from the jedi and the sith. If that was true, they wouldn't be dropping like flies every time our character fought with them. Arcann won the war because of naval superiority. If you control the skies, victory is yours.

 

If Satele wants to let the Force guide her, whatever this means, fine. Every non-force sensitive character I run through the story will stick to his previous experience and make choices based on that.

 

P.S. It also helps that I roleplay my trooper to lose his faith in the Jedi order after the events of Rishi and Yavin. I mean, we sacrificed a lot to free Revan and this is the result? Kudos to the Jedi council for their inability to see his madness.

 

You know what, I like this way of playing the trooper-story :) think I will go in this direction as well.

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I was thoroughly disappointed and frankly disgusted with Chapter XII - SPOILERS INCOMING!

 

 

The entire chapter is entirely focused on getting this new weapon to take down Arcann - but its a 200R weapon - what utter rubbish!!! I'd have expected at LEAST a Glowing DC equivalent (216R) being as Bioware dedicated an entire chapter to getting the damn thing. Utter joke - majority of players have a better sabre than the one you get at this stage! I ended up ripping out the mods in it and shoving in the ones from my current sabre to make it relevant so I could get the Arcann bonus from it - but for crying out loud! Could have given us something a bit more worthwhile for an entire chapter on the subject.

 

The final nail in the coffin (for me) for this chapter - was the end of it - the chapter begins with you selecting who is going to ACCOMPANY YOUR CHARACTER in infiltrating that underground tower to take control of the fleet or indeed destroy the control of the fleet - gaping plot hole here - you come back after getting the sabre and lessons - only to find the team has gone without you? ***? Suuuuure - they'd really leave their biggest gun behind and no one bothers to come and search for you before they try and complete the mission themselves? Yeah I know the argument would be "the intel is getting stale as time goes by" - as pointed out by Lana - but this is really flimsy as the entire alliance knows they are screwed in the main conflicts and infiltrations without your character along. You really could drive a tank through that plot hole in my opinion.

 

Poorly written chapter, gaping plot holes, and just a very lazy filler chapter with a very low value reward in a weapon that is most likely worse than 70%+ of what most of us already have

 

 

I know - a rant and a negative one - I've loved the chapters in this expac up until this one - but this chapter was absolutely rank!

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I don't even waste time playing the expansions with non force users since SoR. :rolleyes: It's frustrating because my favorite class is the agent, but I'm just completely thrown off by this story with him and my other non force users toons. Edited by Lazproperty
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Actually Inquistor and Consular also make sense. it's just none of the non force users make a lick of sense.

 

The inquisitor would make sense, if it weren't for the fact that the story ignores that Nox is technically immortal with those ghosts inside him keeping alive. Even as a light-side inquisitor, one ghost refuses to leave you. I have to admit, when I played KOTFE as the inquisitor, it bothered the hell out of me that Valkorian didn't mention the ghosts. it also bothered me that Khem Val wasn't part of your rescue, as the inquisitor's backstory created a symbonic relationship between the Inquisitor and Khem Val.

 

The inquisitor's backstory is too complex to fit in a one-story fits all storyline. if it wasn't for these facts man, I would agree with you.

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Actually, a light-side inquisitor can redeem all the ghosts and be left with none.

 

And:

 

The bond between us is strong, but it can be broken. — Khem Val

 

Bonds should exist between master and apprentice for the force users as well. Nadia was the only one to comment on having one, but they all should.

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Granted still want to continue on in the story because it makes a lot of sense with my JK and SI, but I'm about done trying to get my Agent and Trooper through the story.

 

You find the story to your liking when you play as SI?

...I am curious because...how? I find it extremely annoying and not for SI at all (which I made the mistake to play as)...even JC seems to be too powerful in the Force for KotFE to make sense (Senya throwing you/ you not helping Lana to open the door at the beginning)... JK and SW probably work the best...but I haven't done it with non force user yet.

For our SI it is as if you suddenly forgot your powers (I am talking about the force walking ritual...although we seem to have forgotten how to make lightning too:D )...especially this chapter left me with very bad taste as I was expecting for our SI to be able to forget the silly lightsaber and instead bind Marr's ghost for his/her power boost...oh well lesson learned....play KOTFE as anything but a SI:)

Edited by Saelinne
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You find the story to your liking when you play as SI?

...I am curious because...how? I find it extremely annoying and not for SI at all (which I made the mistake to play as)...even JC seems to be too powerful in the Force for KotFE to make sense (Senya throwing you/ you not helping Lana to open the door at the beginning)... JK and SW probably work the best...but I haven't done it with non force user yet.

For our SI it is as if you suddenly forgot your powers (I am talking about the force walking ritual...although we seem to have forgotten how to make lightning too:D )...especially this chapter left me with very bad taste as I was expecting for our SI to be able to forget the silly lightsaber and instead bind Marr's ghost for his/her power boost...oh well lesson learned....play KOTFE as anything but a SI:)

 

 

Valk power use alot of lightning . At least for me , that is the reason why my Sorc is one who was the 1st I choose her to take the deal with him .

 

and a Sorc isn't just about the force walking ritual . Its a unique ability but it doesn't make it the only things a Sorc is about .

 

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Valk power use alot of lightning . At least for me , that is the reason why my Sorc is one who was the 1st I choose her to take the deal with him .

 

and a Sorc isn't just about the force walking ritual . Its a unique ability but it doesn't make it the only things a Sorc is about .

 

It....uhh...are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?:)

Because - you lack the power to face Arcann and Vaylin...a somewhat powerful force ghost appears before your force ghost eating Inquisitor...and you not going ''thanks for the meal!'' /bind Marr's ghost....I know that not all SI's will want to eat Marr, but it should have been an option...

 

Valkorion's power uses alot of lightning yes, but unless it turns out that you were just mad and there wasn't actually a Valkorion in your head - it really doesn't matter, as that is not your power.

 

Sorcerer is supposedly master of the dark side, but....the force walking ritual is big part of what make him/her the powerful character he/she is imo....

Edited by Saelinne
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All I have to say is, "Pffft." Sure, it's going in a direction I didn't really expect, but you have to do what a real person would do (not overtly, but it amounts to the same thing); you weave the events proposed in the story together with the persona you have created for your character.

 

I did this more violently for my trooperette when she reached the swamp-pool/Lana scene. Until just before - as in, immediately before the cinematic started - that point, I had been planning for her to renew her thing with Theron that she had had in SoR when he arrived. Then she looked at Lana, and something in my head hooked up with the images and the story, and the plans went out the window. So I wove the Lana romance into her story, and when Aric returned, well, it was too late for him, sadly. Interestingly, though, the seeds of this were sown during chapters I, II, and III, as well as in my real life in a conversation in a restaurant in Paris two months before KotFE even came out.

 

There are two things that we can call role-playing. On the one hand, we have the thing we call RP, where we use the game's mechanical stuff as a medium with which to tell our own story - here's a Sith tomb, and we become acolytes or archaeologists investigating it rather than Darth Nox, Cipher 9, or a Mandalorian.

 

On the other hand, there is the role-playing we do as we play the stories that the game designers present to us. Here, the scenario is given to us, and it is our job to weave it and our ideas of our character together into a cohesive whole. Badly written scenarios make this hard - fighting against Deus Ex Machina Man is a good way to find yourself catching unexpected falling safes. (Ref: What's New (with Phil and Dixie) from Dragon magazine number 75.)

 

The Chapter XII scenario is compatible with this second type of role-playing. It gives us material to weave into the story of our character. Any perception of this being incompatible with our character (the question of force-using or non-force-using characters, for example) is really a failure on our part, because the material is reasonable. It doesn't require our character to grow extra arms, nor to become purple with green spot. For a trooper, we must weave in the possibility that living with V around has marked us in some way. Not that we are using his force power, but that the experience has marked our character. And the character must come to terms with this change and use it or be crushed by circumstances.

 

One final thing: a 200-rated moddable weapon is fine. I had to carve an aug slot in mine and transfer mods, but that's what we do when we find an interesting-looking weapon. It's better than the 204-rated non-moddable things that were "rumoured", as it were, to be coming. Quest-related gear like this should not be the toppest of the top, because some people who get to this point won't have gear that's much stronger than 200-rated. (Case in point: the thread discussing someone's mother(grandmother?) who soloed a DSF mission in relicless 190/178 mix, and beat the Exarch after a FOUR HOUR battle. For her, a 200-rated weapon would be an improvement.)

 

Again, you weave it in as a game-mechanical oddity - in reality, some parts of the final weapon came from your existing one, combined with the special parts you find around the place, something like that. Job done.

 

It is the designer's job to provide us with material that we can weave like this, but it is our job to weave it.

 

Sorry for the rather lengthy digression...

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All I have to say is, "Pffft." Sure, it's going in a direction I didn't really expect, but you have to do what a real person would do (not overtly, but it amounts to the same thing); you weave the events proposed in the story together with the persona you have created for your character.

 

I did this more violently for my trooperette when she reached the swamp-pool/Lana scene. Until just before - as in, immediately before the cinematic started - that point, I had been planning for her to renew her thing with Theron that she had had in SoR when he arrived. Then she looked at Lana, and something in my head hooked up with the images and the story, and the plans went out the window. So I wove the Lana romance into her story, and when Aric returned, well, it was too late for him, sadly. Interestingly, though, the seeds of this were sown during chapters I, II, and III, as well as in my real life in a conversation in a restaurant in Paris two months before KotFE even came out.

 

There are two things that we can call role-playing. On the one hand, we have the thing we call RP, where we use the game's mechanical stuff as a medium with which to tell our own story - here's a Sith tomb, and we become acolytes or archaeologists investigating it rather than Darth Nox, Cipher 9, or a Mandalorian.

 

On the other hand, there is the role-playing we do as we play the stories that the game designers present to us. Here, the scenario is given to us, and it is our job to weave it and our ideas of our character together into a cohesive whole. Badly written scenarios make this hard - fighting against Deus Ex Machina Man is a good way to find yourself catching unexpected falling safes. (Ref: What's New (with Phil and Dixie) from Dragon magazine number 75.)

 

The Chapter XII scenario is compatible with this second type of role-playing. It gives us material to weave into the story of our character. Any perception of this being incompatible with our character (the question of force-using or non-force-using characters, for example) is really a failure on our part, because the material is reasonable. It doesn't require our character to grow extra arms, nor to become purple with green spot. For a trooper, we must weave in the possibility that living with V around has marked us in some way. Not that we are using his force power, but that the experience has marked our character. And the character must come to terms with this change and use it or be crushed by circumstances.

 

One final thing: a 200-rated moddable weapon is fine. I had to carve an aug slot in mine and transfer mods, but that's what we do when we find an interesting-looking weapon. It's better than the 204-rated non-moddable things that were "rumoured", as it were, to be coming. Quest-related gear like this should not be the toppest of the top, because some people who get to this point won't have gear that's much stronger than 200-rated. (Case in point: the thread discussing someone's mother(grandmother?) who soloed a DSF mission in relicless 190/178 mix, and beat the Exarch after a FOUR HOUR battle. For her, a 200-rated weapon would be an improvement.)

 

Again, you weave it in as a game-mechanical oddity - in reality, some parts of the final weapon came from your existing one, combined with the special parts you find around the place, something like that. Job done.

 

It is the designer's job to provide us with material that we can weave like this, but it is our job to weave it.

 

Sorry for the rather lengthy digression...

 

I agree with you....to a point. I would fully agree with you if KotFE was its own game...if we were given to play some new random force using character...but we are not. That is the problem with KotFE...it is continuation of the characters we already have. They can't just make new rules or limitations as we already have rules....

....as I gave an example: my SI was not given the choice to bind the ghost of Marr. Why? A choice mind you - I know there are alot of SI that will not want to do that...either beause they like Marr or other reasons....but...I don't know. The devs suddenly decided to give me a morality that previously I had the choice to not have?

 

...btw the trooper)and smuggler for that matter) have already seen a force ghost (the exile) in the presence of Oteg and later Revan, but I am not sure if it is the ghost doing or maybe when you are in the presence of powerful force users...

 

PS: I think it is too late for Lana to realise she unfroze the wrong person:)

Edited by Saelinne
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Lana saved any of the PC because of their heroic actions on Shadow of Revan as we know only one did that so yeah she realized that PC is important.

 

Was that reply to what I said? If so sorry I guess I was misleading...I meant that Lana could have gone ''ups you are just some random force users...I knew the correct one was in the next cell!'':)

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You find the story to your liking when you play as SI?

...I am curious because...how? I find it extremely annoying and not for SI at all (which I made the mistake to play as)...even JC seems to be too powerful in the Force for KotFE to make sense (Senya throwing you/ you not helping Lana to open the door at the beginning)... JK and SW probably work the best...but I haven't done it with non force user yet.

For our SI it is as if you suddenly forgot your powers (I am talking about the force walking ritual...although we seem to have forgotten how to make lightning too:D )...especially this chapter left me with very bad taste as I was expecting for our SI to be able to forget the silly lightsaber and instead bind Marr's ghost for his/her power boost...oh well lesson learned....play KOTFE as anything but a SI:)

 

There's a couple things wrong, but I also look at it like this. As strong as your SI is, even Valkorion says "you're a master of the darkside" in chapter 12, but he says both his children are even STRONGER.

 

You as the player seemed to have just missed the fact, strong as you are, Valkorion's kids are stronger than you are. Kind of Goku DBZ style when DBZ first started. Strong as Goku was, someone was stronger and to get at their level he had to learn and kick it up a few gears.

 

Same applies to the jedi and sith atm. Hell Satele Shan was just as strong if not stronger and Marr was your counterpart and both were defeated.

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Hmm as far as I know (besides the trailer when the game came out) we haven't seen Stetele Shan power (or should I say extend of power?), but as for Marr...to me the interaction between Marr and SI was similar to Arcann and Vaylin...Marr speaks to me as an equal but as soon as my SI becomes confrontational he backs down....to me it feels like Marr is not quite up there with SI's power levels...

...and Marr lost vs the eternal fleet:)

(we don't know how Setele lost as far as I know)

 

...and I am not saying that we should be as or more powerful than Arcann (and not to mention something as silly as we having the same power level as Vaylin), but it seems like the story forgets that our characters have different strengths and weaknesses. Yes later in the story Marr probably have some important role to play so binding him might end bad for us but still we should have been give the choice imo...

Edited by Saelinne
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I agree with you....to a point. I would fully agree with you if KotFE was its own game...if we were given to play some new random force using character...but we are not. That is the problem with KotFE...it is continuation of the characters we already have. They can't just make new rules or limitations as we already have rules....

I think you missed my point about weaving. It is the designer's job to give us something we can weave into our characters. It is our job to weave it. This applies to all parts of the game, from the original 1.0 stories via the 2.0 RotHC stories and the 3.0 SoR story all the way to Chapter XII of KotFE. We have an idea of who our character is at the beginning, and we update it as we play.

 

Kylath (my infamous trooperette) was, for all of Chapters One to Three, RotHC, and SoR, unbendingly light-side. She did what she saw as right, without being self-righteous about it. Then things start to happen in KotFE, even in Chapter I, and what felt like the right thing to do was no longer always well-aligned with the Light. But she pursued them anyway. And now she has finished Chapter XII and she has found that she must follow a new path, and she must learn to use the thing that has marked her, because if she does not, it will crush her and her Alliance.

 

And if this new path leads her away from the Light, then so be it.

 

That's what I mean by weaving the story into our character.

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I'm not liking the latest chapter much either. I just finished it with my Imperial Agent.

I am starting to lose what sort of person she was.

 

Chapter 12

 

I am given a choice between Marr and Satiel, I stand there thinking. What is the difference here?

A Jedi who is/has been my enemy or a former Sith and self confessed Jedi.

So my choice is really between two Jedi. I chose neither because Marr no longer represented the Sith to me I've probably ruined my characters character by this.

I would have loved it if Marr and become an angry Sith spirit instead.

 

 

I feel the story is, despite its occasional dark side choices pushing my characters towards being the type of character the story wants them to be.

There's not much fun in that.

I think most of my other characters are going to stay in happy ignorance pre fallen empire.

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I think that the worst, worst thing in this chapter was when I tried to kill Bastila, and she stopped time and disappeared...

 

It's like Mistake 101, of RPG story-telling.

 

The writers of KOTFE are very very bad, bad artists, there is nothing redeemable with their work. It's not just bad, but a condensate of all story-telling mistakes possible.

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Still felt perfectly natural on my Scoundrel, really (well, other than he wouldn't have gone wandering to ask Valkie about stuff anyway). He doesn't know how the Force works, and he doesn't "need" it to get by, but if the Force wants to help him anyway via people who know how that stuff works, he'll take their help.

 

Heck, he was even kicking Valkie's butt until Valkie got cutscene power. But the same goes for Force users there, anyway.

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