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Eternal Championship (un)balance


Langela

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I will start with my thesis that proper level synchronisation is an illusion: a max level character in 7.0 is a different "creature" compared to a max level 65! Max level 65 is past tense now and so are most of its characteristics. Skills and defensive are different and so is going to be with gear: BiS was easy to achieve back in the day, but now it's still on the "to do" list.

 

However, let's see some numbers*:

 

Player stats

Level 65 (2016)

- HP: 80k

- Mastery: 5,276

- Endurance: 6,400

- Power: 2,845

- Presence: 3,762

- Damage (Pri): ... - 3,250

 

Level 65 (synced)

- HP: 70k

- Mastery: 3,626

- Endurance: 4,477

- Power: 1,816

- Presence: 3,130

- Damage (Pri): ... - 2,096

 

Eternal Championship Bosses

1. Arlaia Zayzen: 129k (2016) -- 159k (2022 / 7.0)

-- Medical Unit: 33k (2016) -- 44k (2022 / 7.0)

-- Combat Unit: 29k (2016) -- 39k (2022 / 7.0)

...

5. Lanos: 210k (2016) -- 259k (2022 / 7.0)

 

6. Breaktown Brawler: 240k (2016) -- 296k (2022 / 7.0)

-- Mister Ripper: 375k (2016) -- 417k (2022 / 7.0)

-- King Crush: 375k (2016) -- 417k (2022 / 7.0)

 

7. Nocturno: 210k (2016) -- 258k (2022 / 7.0)

-- Drake Raven: 378k (2016) -- 465k (2022 / 7.0)

...

 

Shall I go on? While player's stats have been reduced even below a "standard" level 65, bosses stats have remained and in some cases even further buffed, much as they were with the "bolster" system previous to current version.

 

I insist: "adjusting" only these numbers will not magically solve the level synchronisation difficulties, since our characters have been affected at a much deeper level by the current changes than simple stats values.

 

Not to mention how efficient companions were back in the time! To all those that might argue that a strong companion takes all the "fun" out of the game, I would like to remind that "Sprint Champion" title pursuers heavily relied on the efficiency of their companions! Most "sprint champions" switched their companions role to DPS to help them beat the dps check, but now, with the greatly reduced survivability of our current characters, one cannot have that luxury: without a healing companion you have to keep moving to stay alive, so if you are a caster you are in no position to compete for the sprint champion title. Actually, not sure if any class is in such position any longer!

 

* 2016 data credits to

for player's data and Dulfy's for Eternal Championship Bosses data. Edited by Langela
Add source for 2016 reference data
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Very interesting.

 

Seems like the stat budget is too low for level sync, or based on a lower item rating than what was available ? Unless the level sync takes into account the rating of your gear relative to the best gear available for your level, in which case, that's fair, but someone should inform us.

 

And I have no clue why they would increase NPC stats in old, sync'd content. That doesn't seem intentional...

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Very interesting.

 

Seems like the stat budget is too low for level sync, or based on a lower item rating than what was available ? Unless the level sync takes into account the rating of your gear relative to the best gear available for your level, in which case, that's fair, but someone should inform us.

[snip]

 

I noticed a huge loss of all stats with BiS 306 gear on my level 75 character the day the expansion was released. If it's going to be a synchronisation then level 75 BiS gear should equate to level 65 BiS gear. I wouldn't ask a level 75 character to level up again and get BiS gear again (what's BiS in 7.0 anyway?), only to be competitive on level 65 content? What kind of logic is that?

 

Am I supposed to have to equip 330 purple gear? It's SOLO content, after all. Why would they tune this (assuming that they did) according to NiM quality gear when they said that will only ever be needed for NiM raiders? On the other hand, they also said so many other things only to quietly ignore them.

 

Oh, and if it wasn't clear from my previous lines, I have no sympathy for this so called expansion! They created themselves plenty of problems and now need time to "fix" them: the numbers above prove that! There was nothing wrong with plenty of previous content, Eternal Championship included!

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Eternal Championship is far from the only content that is horrifically scaled in 7.0. Many nightmare operations are entirely undoable right now. I do not believe that NiM Gods or NiM Dxun are doable in their current state. And most other nightmare operations are doable only by the two or three most elite raid teams. And this is even in 330 current BiS gear.

 

The scaling is currently insane and its obvious that the devs put very little time and effort into property scaling content.

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I just came here to complain about this, I tried doing the Eternal Championship on the live game today and it seems unsoloable. In 6.0 It was difficult and took some time to learn the fights but it was doable, now my companion dies in like a minute and I'm screwed. The scaling on a lot of things needs to be fixed but this is one of the worst I've encountered so far.
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I got sprint champion title days before 7.0 but now I can't even get through the 6th fight with the same toon with 320 gear.

 

I done it on live a few days back and it was rough compared to what it was like in the day I got sprint champion when it first came out.

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I know that the overturning was reported on PTS. I have a guild member who completed it last week after about an hour and at least one death to doom droid using a serenity shadow and an influence rank 50 companion in heal stance. My guild member was probably in around 320ish gear. I’m fairly certain she has all datacrons.

 

When the Eternal Championship came out during 4.x, Deathless Champion and Sprint Champion were achievements that launched with it. Therefore, it was designed in an era of level 65 parameters. There were also achievements for doing it with each base class (now Origin Story). So, while it was not designed to be done without any deaths within 15 minutes for all advanced classes, I don’t think it’s a stretch of the imagination to say it should be able to be completed by all combat styles with relatively few deaths in a matter of time on the order of 15-45 minutes give or take. You have to recall that Galactic Seasons weekly objectives are chosen based on time investment, so weekly objectives are intended to take roughly the same amount of time, give or take. As a comparison, it took me approximately 5 GSF matches to earn the required 25 medals during that Seasons week. 5 matches x 12 minutes per match is about 60.

 

It is important to acknowledge that most deaths during the Eternal Championship are mechanics related, rather than raw incoming damage. Still, I don’t think it’s appropriate for this to take 2 hours to complete post 7.0. The numbers here are quite revealing, OP, so thank you for that research. I’m not sure if it’s a factor of the presence nerf or the scaling or both, but this does need to be looked at. I’m ok if it’s a bit more of a challenge than it had been in the 6.x era, but I get the impression from my guild member and others it’s far too overtuned.

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Counter-opinion, though I must be in the minority here. I ran the championship the other day on Deception (blue 324 flashpoint gear no augs, for whatever that's worth with the scaling...) with no issues. I think I used one med station for the doom droid? No deaths. Took me about 30 minutes, which seems reasonable since I was being cautious.

 

You do actually have to play mechanics--pay attention to positioning, kill order, dcds, etc.--but I didn't think the scaling was bad, much less "insane." If anything it was a lot more fun than it was last expansion. >.>;

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Counter-opinion, though I must be in the minority here. I ran the championship the other day on Deception (blue 324 flashpoint gear no augs, for whatever that's worth with the scaling...) with no issues. I think I used one med station for the doom droid? No deaths. Took me about 30 minutes, which seems reasonable since I was being cautious.

 

You do actually have to play mechanics--pay attention to positioning, kill order, dcds, etc.--but I didn't think the scaling was bad, much less "insane." If anything it was a lot more fun than it was last expansion. >.>;

 

Yes, I suppose you are in the minority. I've finished EC plenty of times before 7.0 and I know all the mechanics in my sleep.

 

Yet, I wasn't even remotely able to clear EC after 7.0 (in 320 green gear).

 

I didn't try with Deception, so I don't know does it work better. My infiltration shadow always performed very well in EC, so it might be that this advanced class is in a better shape for EC at the moment than other classes. For example I didn't even manage to kill the first boss on my agent. The reason for this was that my level 50 companion didn't manage to heal herself and died in 100% of my tries. I could have finished the boss without a companion by using one or two healing stations, but I didn't want to, because I need those stations for the double beast and Batman & Robin fights.

 

For me, EC was perfectly tuned in 6.x, and it was one of my favourite repeatable contents. Now it's undoable for me. YMMV.

Edited by JattaGin
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Counter-opinion, though I must be in the minority here. I ran the championship the other day on Deception (blue 324 flashpoint gear no augs, for whatever that's worth with the scaling...) with no issues. I think I used one med station for the doom droid? No deaths. Took me about 30 minutes, which seems reasonable since I was being cautious.

[snipped]

 

Thanks for the update! That gear was my next step before going back to EC, but 30 minutes - even if played with caution, is still too much. Let's say you would try that for real, going for your best time, how much faster do you think you would be able to get? 5 minutes less? 10 minutes, maybe? It's not about skill anymore, nor is it about gear since that will not make that much of a difference - the increased HP added to bosses coupled with a reduced damage output and survivability we got from 7.0, makes it a simple mathematical operation: total bosses HP divided by your max (hypothetical) damage output has to be less than 15 minutes! (for the Sprint Champion title).

 

It's not a realistic estimation since we're not talking about static training droid target here, but if even this basic "setup" doesn't get a total timing below 15 minutes then the current EC is clearly out of balance! From my estimation, current PTS Eternal Championship bosses have about 20% more HP compared to original, 2016 edition, while players have less abilities, defences, utility points available and gear than 2016 players. I don't mind having some "extra" fun, but within a reasonable limit.

 

What worries me here is that current PTS settings reflect what we will get with 7.0.1 patch. If they didn't fix that on this iteration, then it's going to take a lot more time - I don't know, maybe even 7.1 release? - to have it fixed! Well, it was nothing to be fixed before 7.0, so yeah I'm pretty sad for this change! :(

 

[snipped]

For me, EC was perfectly tuned in 6.x, and it was one of my favourite repeatable contents. Now it's undoable for me. YMMV.

 

Same here! My goal and also my reason to go through all this grind for gear: I just started to get some blue 322 flashpoint gear, so still way to go to full 324, let alone 326, but the "performance" this gear can offer us is still not up to the task! :confused:

Edited by Langela
Correct typo
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...30 minutes - even if played with caution, is still too much....if even this basic "setup" doesn't get a total timing below 15 minutes then the current EC is clearly out of balance!.

 

I seem to have misunderstood your complaint. I thought this was a thread about how EC is now potentially not-completable due to balancing issues. Is this actually a thread about wanting Sprint Champion to be more easily achievable? Because there were a lot of tricks I used for Sprint Champion (optimized comp choice, heroic moment, num-padding through convos, rocket boots and/or phase walk, etc) that I don't bother with anymore because I just want to play the content and have fun...

 

As for gear: I gave mine for disclosure, but Veterans Edge no longer exists, and tertiary stats are now capped with the rest. Gear shouldn't make any difference at all,

Edited by Crystal_Mind
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... Is this actually a thread about wanting Sprint Champion to be more easily achievable? ...

 

I'm not necessarily asking for an easier Eternal Championship here, but I surely don't want it more difficult than 2016 edition, either! I think it's only fair to have the same conditions players had when Eternal Championship came out, or - since 2016 environment is past tense now - at least a properly scaled environment.

 

And, yes, I watched videos and looked up for various tips from those that got the Sprint Champion, only that many of those suggestions don't apply anymore, like "keep companion on DPS except for Round 6" (Brawler and two Kintans). That's a "luxury" we... sorry, maybe others can, but I don't feel I can afford it anymore.

 

I see two main "actors" here: the players (with their skill set including 50 rank companions, companions that were indeed an important part of their 2016 "toolbox") and the adversaries (EC bosses). Let's say they managed to perfectly balance our current player's skills and tools to match those of 2016 (which they didn't!)... Why did they then go on and increased the HP of adversaries (bosses) by approximately 20%? Did they, maybe, intend to award a ... "Super-Sprint Champion" title?

 

If the 2016 player got their Sprint Champion title by dealing, let's say 14 mil damage, while also avoiding deathly traps and damage, in less than 15 minutes (commentaries included), then having to deal an extra 2,8 mil damage (20% of the initial damage target), while having less effective skills in their "toolbox" (less abilities, less survivability, weaker companion etc), in the same amount of time, then I think we're talking about some kind of Nightmare/Master Mode version here. Maybe that's what those that already got their "story mode" Sprint Champion title would go for next, but is this really what's going on with the 7.0 Eternal Championship right now?

Edited by Langela
Complete sentence with more context
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  • 2 weeks later...

I am pleasantly surprised there is a thread about this. I thought nobody cared about how poorly balanced EC is now.

 

I concur heartily with the points raised above. I tend to complete EC on every toon I run through KOTFE/KOTET, because I always clear out all of my Alliance Alerts. I have all the Deathless Champion, Sprint Champion, Eternal Champion achievements from back in the day. And while I cannot claim that in 6.0 I always managed to repeat Spring Champion on every toon, seeing as I'm not proficient with *every* class, I still definitely cleared it every time as Deathless in under 20 minutes.

 

Right now, I have full 330 augmented gear, a level 50 comp, a burst class, and I continuously fail Round 7. I suppose if I tried enough times, I would eventually get through it, but I didn't bother, I just switched to a group mode, and asked a guildie for help. As it is, I run out of DCDs, and the companion cannot keep up with healing me, because companions are currently inferior. And I'm a Hardmare raider, too. Like, congratulations to the person who managed to clear it fine, I guess I'm a sandbag, whatever, but this shouldn't be this hard. There is a [sOLO] and [sOLO+] (still broken by the way) for this for a reason. Yes, it requires you to understand the mechanics, and understand your own class, but it shouldn't be brutal in BiS gear.

 

Plus, it's one of the objectives for Galactic Seasons during some weeks, so presumable it's implied to be an obtainable objective to even casual players. Which currently it's not.

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actually i would want the EC to be scaled to level 80.

the scaling is really a pain in that game right now, but i also think,

that the most are mixing memories with 6.x content.

 

when the EC came out, you tried to get the sprint-champion with best in slot gear

and everything you could get. you even used buff food to increase your out of combat

regen rate. and here the discussion about different companions really started, because

it matters these days.

you never could achieve the title with starting gear, low influece companions and nearly

no preparation.

 

with 6.x the EC was just a joke. sprint-champion even was easy to achieve for very casual

players, just by following the old guides. when altuur was introduced, it was even more easy

to do. even in healer specc you could get the sprint-champion title, if you tryharded a bit.

also it was nearly impossible for companions to get killed in 6.x times.

 

when EC was released you really had to micro manage you companions, to change their spot.

 

and today, even with the bad scaling we have in the game, it just is near the release candidate.

you are doing more dps right now, but you have less defensive cooldowns.

 

so i think the best idea would be, to increase the level to 80 and make it challenging again,

and please give us a second part.

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This should not be a cake walk, but a hard, challenging content.

Optimize gear, put some augment, optimal skill choices, proper rotation, etc.

You don't need BIS gear to do it still. You don't need to be some mechanical monster to do it either.

But 6.0 totally mess the game, as it seems.

This is MMORPG after all, and there should be challenge, there should be chasuble stuff/content/items in this game, that are not achievable by anyone and getting them should not be a casual walk in the park.

SWTOR is already too easy.

And 30 minute for such content is a normal time, especially done on relaxing time.

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  • 2 months later...

I'm not sure this will get recognized seeing as its a PTS thread, but all the threads in GD are largely empty.

 

I did this tonight on a Guardian, swapping between Vigilance and Defense as needed. I have 326 purple Thrysian gear, maxed datacrons, and was using rank 50 companions. I have all the appropriate Legendary implants and tacticals. I'm not augmented in gold 300s but I do have purple artifact 286 augments throughout.

 

I have all the Eternal Championship-related achievements including Sprint Champion already, this was just for fun and because its a Seasons weekly objective this week, though I already have the meta achievement for 100 weeklies and legendary reputation with Season level 100, so I don't need the Underworld Syndicate Plans nor do I need the weekly checked off. I'm not inexperienced with this particular piece of content, I'm well familiar with the various round mechanics having played it for years.

 

I did notice I'm level locked down to 65, but changing discipline definitely changed my health, as did swapping from a Proficient stim to a Fortitude stim.

 

I died at least three times on Zotar, but did manage to finish the entire ten rounds with my comp taking a dirt nap while heroic moment was luckily still up. I probably died a couple of times on Doom Droid (round 9) as well, and I died once or twice on the rancor. Breaktown Brawler, which is usually my trouble spot, wasn't a problem. I may have died once on Nocturno also. I am sure it was over an hour long encounter. Admittedly, since I clearly wasn't going for Sprint Champ, I configured cautiously by keeping my comp in heal stance for the whole tournament and swapping to tank discipline as I got into trouble. This encounter is a lot harder in 7.0 than it ever has been, even at launch. I'm not sure if this is residual due to the ongoing companion performance issue, or whether the encounter is just poorly balanced, but it feels like the outgoing damage is too much.

 

I'll also note that the loss of mobility from the ability nerfs of 7.0 that hit Guardian are really felt in this encounter. I'm sure some might argue that the movement buffs of Freezing Force and Mad Dash trivialized the rounds of tEC where getting out of circles asap is important, but it was much more painful than it has ever been to play this content. I really missed those abilities tonight, its frustrating to have lost them in the great 7.0 nerf of Guardians. I know we weren't the only ones who got beaten to a pulp with the nerf bat, but you can really feel it here especially in later rounds where movement is essential. I'm not sure how anyone could get Sprint Champion or Deathless Champion as the content is currently balanced. And as I said, I was doing this for fun and for research, with the encounters well known, and excellent gear. I can't imagine a newer player ever getting through this in the state it is in. I know pre-7.0 is never coming back and the development team is just tickled pink with the ability pruning, but this was pretty unenjoyable, considering it used to be one of my favorite pieces of non-GSF content. Unfortunately, until the devs finalize their fix for companion performance, its hard to know what to tweak exactly.

 

I am not sure whether its best to balance this encounter for pure endgame (which it seems to be currently) or for the levels it was originally meant for (around 65 and chapter 11 of KOTFE). And I sympathize with the idea that some content should be challenging. Nevertheless, the hour+ spent with more than a handful of deaths on a character who is well geared and an experienced player is both a problem and a disappointment.

 

My guild leader, a Founder, someone who created the guild pre-launch, has quit the game, Bioware, over 7.0. I'm a founder too having played since closed beta. You need to address this (and by 'this' I'm not referring to the Eternal Championship per se, though it is a microcosm of the larger problem).

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  • 4 weeks later...
I have the sprint champion achievement and was doing EC consistently under 15 mins every time I wanted to try to farm this boss battle minigame for the rancor mount. It takes me at least 30 minutes now. Haven't seen anyone mention it, but heroic moment is now really weak. Heroic moment was important in speeding through EC for the achievement. How people got sprint champion before was that you had to pop heroic moment and use all the legacy abilities as they did HUGE damage. Using legacy orbital strike from heroic moment on the first boss in EC while you mashed your rotation with a high-parsing DPS class would wipe him in 10 seconds or less. You can youtube this, even tanks with dps gear (skank tanks) were able to do EC in under 15 minutes with heroic moment abilities before. Edited by Valezor
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