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7.0 Class Balance is Poor


Gyronamics

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It's not a secret and acknowledging the poor balance does not rely on rumour or anecdotes or insignificant data.

 

 

Parsely.io collects logs for data

 

https://parsely.io/parser/stats - dummy parsing results

https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats - real operation fight results

 

Ixparse.com collects user data from from the highly popular Starparse parser

 

http://ixparse.com/rating/ - data from real operation fights

 

 

I will specially note two highly popular fights on Master Mode.

 

 

Nefra is single target with trivial mechanics to obey, this should be close to a dummy parse:

 

https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/nefra/8/MM/dps/live/

http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=5&mode=HM&size=8M&type=DPS&class=&order=rating&dir=d

 

Dashroode has moderate disruption, period of forced movement and frequent adds, bit of a varied fight:

 

https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dashroode/8/MM/dps/live/

http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=21&mode=HM&size=8M&type=DPS&class=&order=rating&dir=d

 

Ixale still combines VM and MM due to historic reasons but the picture is essentially the same.

 

 

That was DPS, doing the same again for HPS regarding healers:

Nefra is an extremely static and predictable fight, players stand in a group separate from the tanks and healers have to manage tank and group healing and cleansing DoT.

 

https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/nefra/8/MM/hps/live/

http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=5&mode=HM&size=8M&type=EHPS&class=&order=rating&dir=d

 

Dashroode has long periods of group healing with 1 tank taking moderate continuous damage and high spike damage with three periods of group movement with moderate damage to the tank.

 

https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dashroode/8/MM/hps/live/

http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=21&mode=HM&size=8M&type=EHPS&class=&order=rating&dir=d

 

 

Tanks are a more complicated issue as neither their DPS or HPS is their true worth but their abilities to control enemies, to move around freely, to take low sustained damage and to ignore extremely high damage at times. I believe at this time the performance of damage and healing classes is the limiting factor in (re)progression rather than tank choice.

Edited by Gyronamics
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They completetly dropped the ball with operative heal. The problem is that bosses hit so hard now that you NEED an operative heal.

 

They probably realized that all classes have not enough damage reduction anymore and the incoming damage is insane.

 

So what do they do? Give operative heal ONE perk that makes insane heals and feels like a bug. But is needed to clear nim ops and makes operative heal the only viable healer in 7.0.

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Mind giving us your conclusions about this? I don't really feel like going through pages of data.

 

But I can tell already just soloing that concealment and marksmanship suck.

Edited by Pricia
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Mind giving us your conclusions about this? I don't really feel like going through pages of data.

 

One of his last conclusions were, that Anni/Wachtmen Sents/Maras are so op, if stacked, they could replace a healer. So yeah... :eek:

 

The whole new numbers are imo flawed by deffault, because there is no level 80 crafting. No new stims, medpacks and augments. Keep in mind that ~30% tertiary stats came from those on 75. Now its far less. Also a lot auf endurance and power stats are simply missing.

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Yes, just what we need is another outcry of "Balance the classes" because 7.0 didnt wreck the game enough trying to bring that new vision...seeking balance, has destroyed more MMOs than anything else.

 

Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

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Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

 

Right now the balance is so bad that only a few classes with enough damage and aoe reduction are playable in nim.

Other classes just die because of the damage or can´t get past damage checks.

 

So I and probably the OP want classes to be balanced so that for example a range class can play nim ops.

Right now you can´t go into Brontes nim with 4 (or 1) Arsenal dps "for fun" or 2 sorc healers.

 

In the current nightmare raid meta it´s not possible. That´s not being elitist that's just how it is.

Edited by Ahwassa
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Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

Yeah, but thats a delicate point. If youre playing your class very good - and see how other play their class just ok and outperform you by a mile... thats no fun.

And to be fair the OP has some point - Carnage underperform horribly and Arsenal/IO Merc are also in a very poor spot right now. Snipers maybe too. And we didn't talk about just minor differences... if two Carnage Maras do the same damage as almost one Fury.

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Yeah, but thats a delicate point. If youre playing your class very good - and see how other play their class just ok and outperform you by a mile... thats no fun.

And to be fair the OP has some point - Carnage underperform horribly and Arsenal/IO Merc are also in a very poor spot right now. Snipers maybe too. And we didn't talk about just minor differences... if two Carnage Maras do the same damage as almost one Fury.

 

Again, this is only due to people placing value on numbers, and not fun.

 

This kind of garbage creates zero differences between classes other than names and creates this belief that if x class does 50 damage, y and z must also otherwise its not "fair". Its also why elitist guilds are not large while non-elitist guilds are...they suck the fun out of playing because their spreadsheets say something.

 

Hell, we wound up with mirror images of classes between factions because of this horrible train of thinking that things should be "fair"...smugglers should not be a mirror of an agent, nor should a bounty hunter be a mirror of a trooper. Sorcs SHOULD be the most OP set of skills in the game to match the flipping power of the darkside, troopers should be able to tear things up from the arms and training they have, snipers should be able to do insane burst damage as an assassin should...but no, we need "fairness" and so we have a whole lot of bland nonsense for the sake of not getting as many elitist tears. Cookie cutter garbage, instead of giving us what we should get in a star wars game to fit the LORE.

 

7.0 trashed the classes because of elitist whining on the forums. We lost so many skills because of "fairness"...cry, there are too many stuns and slows, cry...well, congrats, the game is even worse than before.

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AThis kind of garbage creates zero differences between classes other than names and creates this belief that if x class does 50 damage, y and z must also otherwise its not "fair". Its also why elitist guilds are not large while non-elitist guilds are...they suck the fun out of playing because their spreadsheets say something.

 

:confused: What?

Don't know why this triggered you so much.

 

First of all; If there is „zero difference“ between classes, than exists no classes at all. Second, I don't really get who do you consider an „elitist“? Third – you contradict yourself. If someone having fun playing after „their spreadsheets“ - so its their definition of fun. Why is their fun „bad“ and your fun is how it should be? :confused:

 

Instead of giving us what we should get in a star wars game to fit the LORE.

 

This isn't the discussion youre looking for. What you want to discuss you can finde here; :)https://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=245

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Again, this is only due to people placing value on numbers, and not fun.

 

This kind of garbage creates zero differences between classes other than names and creates this belief that if x class does 50 damage, y and z must also otherwise its not "fair". Its also why elitist guilds are not large while non-elitist guilds are...they suck the fun out of playing because their spreadsheets say something.

 

Hell, we wound up with mirror images of classes between factions because of this horrible train of thinking that things should be "fair"...smugglers should not be a mirror of an agent, nor should a bounty hunter be a mirror of a trooper. Sorcs SHOULD be the most OP set of skills in the game to match the flipping power of the darkside, troopers should be able to tear things up from the arms and training they have, snipers should be able to do insane burst damage as an assassin should...but no, we need "fairness" and so we have a whole lot of bland nonsense for the sake of not getting as many elitist tears. Cookie cutter garbage, instead of giving us what we should get in a star wars game to fit the LORE.

 

7.0 trashed the classes because of elitist whining on the forums. We lost so many skills because of "fairness"...cry, there are too many stuns and slows, cry...well, congrats, the game is even worse than before.

 

Yeah.... no.

 

I actually like the combat changes, but we need some balance. Nobody likes playing a class that does poor damage or healing... fun or not, if it takes you twice as long to kill something, it gets no fun very fast.

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Again, this is only due to people placing value on numbers, and not fun.

 

This kind of garbage creates zero differences between classes other than names and creates this belief that if x class does 50 damage, y and z must also otherwise its not "fair".

By "people" i assume you're meaning "the developers"? I mean, since they're the ones who created the class imbalances and all the boss mechanics and health?

 

I'm 100% with you, let people play whatever they like and feel most comfortable with, but the classes need to perform similarly for that to be possible. Right now, they're not performing similarly.

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Nobody likes playing a class that does poor damage or healing... fun or not, if it takes you twice as long to kill something, it gets no fun very fast.

 

And by nobody you mean everyone that does not take part in OPS or even looks at damage/healing while grouped.

 

Elitism confirmed.

 

Also, the leveling scaling + extra health they gave mobs increased combat time. This has been complained about in mass in PTS and since its gone live. More people are complaining about them taking away skills, gear buffs than "ermagurd that other class can do more than me".

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Hardest content is a game mode which demands competence not just attendance. "Elitism" is a bad take of players looking at poor balance and being realistic.

 

Boss difficulty was increased to the point where players are obliged to very strongly consider the viability of a spec or class.

 

+30% damage in a real operation fight with 1 target between the worst and best spec.

+130% damage in a real operation fight with multitarget between the worst and best spec.

 

It's the same group at the bottom and the same group at the top no matter if it's a dummy parse or a genuine fight.

 

These are not differences you overcome with friendship and patience.

 

These are differences which say a player is an unreasonable burden to the team if they bring that spec or entire class and will contribute strongly to failing the fight and no one progressing.

 

True elitism would be gatekeeping over trivial differences.

 

Wanting a fair chance for all in this game content is very far from elitism.

Edited by Gyronamics
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Yes, especially Arsenal and Engineering are really poor dps.

Also I would just ignore anyone who cries "muh eLiTiSm", most of the time their arguments are built around this projection of eLiTiSm, acting like saying it wins you all arguments by default. Now we are at the point where talking about class balance is elitism. To the garbage bin where it belongs.

Edited by Cleev
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And by nobody you mean everyone that does not take part in OPS or even looks at damage/healing while grouped.

 

Elitism confirmed.

 

Also, the leveling scaling + extra health they gave mobs increased combat time. This has been complained about in mass in PTS and since its gone live. More people are complaining about them taking away skills, gear buffs than "ermagurd that other class can do more than me".

 

... No.

 

I never group except for GSF and the occasional warzone. I had one at least one character with each DPS spec before 7.0.

 

I said "before 7.0." Because even though I like carnage, I just don't enjoy taking twice as long to run a heroic than I do with fury.

 

I'm also considering respeccing my concealment operative and scrapper scoundrel, the only reason I haven't yet is that I already have four ruffians/lethality characters and I still need a change (and want to keep stealth). But it's painful to play them (poor dps, super squishy even using cooldowns all the time), so I mostly use them for pvp (where it's still handy)/crating/GSF.

 

Engineering I thought I'd respec before 7.0 but I actually like now because of some changes that make it much more fun for soloing (that change would not improve boss fights but it's nice for getting rid of ads). Marksmanship I don't even play anymore and just do PvP on that toon.

 

Arsenal I still enjoy more than most of the other tech specs so I still play. Annihilation I got rid of because it's too much of a PITA in heroics - even if it's great dps for ops or whatnot (which, again, I don't care about).

 

So no, it has nothing to do with elitism. It has everything to do with having fun and not taking forever to kill mobs. Some specs just perform too poorly even soloing.

Edited by Pricia
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...

Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

 

I have the feeling we're talking about a different mindset altogether or maybe a different "philosophy" of how combat is meant to work in SWTOR compared to, say, GuildWars 2.

 

SWTOR does have a combat log since quite a while now, while GuildWars 2 doesn't (at least not officialy). In SWTOR you see exactly how much HP an enemy has and, based on your own abilities, can figure out how much it'll take to defeat them if at all, while in GuildWars 2 you don't.

 

In SWTOR, being able to go back to your combat log and trying to figure out how to improve your... performance is a huge part of "raiding progression", even if only on hard/veteran mode. Many actually enjoy that because it gives you a direction and a purpose. In GuildWars 2 you can read your in game combat channel, but that's far from being as efficient as a parsing a combat log text file is.

 

I do love being able to swing a hammer in GW2, and that feels like lots of fun, but then just jumping in combat while having little to no idea if I'll make it out alive is not that fun. Well, maybe once or twice, for the thrill of it, but not as a "play style".

 

On the other hand, in SWTOR, being able to gauge the enemy's strength helps me ... plan my attacks in such a way to use my combat abilities "effectively". Being able to actually plan my attacks is what adds satisfaction on top of the fun, so for how much I loved GW2 I couldn't stick with it for too long because frustrated by its combat system.

 

TL; DR: SWTOR has the parsing built into its combat system, while other games don't, therefore passing a "dps check" is a normal request here.

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I just don't understand how Bioware is unable to fix these sorts of issues in a timely manner given the plethora of data available to them. Just look at the logs and it's as plain as day that some classes are under-performing to an unacceptable degree.

 

Healing class balance is very poor at the moment: operative healers are over-performing to a ridiculous degree with self kolto infusion. Yet in the last patch Bioware decides not to nerf this ability and instead nerfs sorc healers, by nerfing the resurgence spread which was FINALLY bringing sorc healers on par with the other two classes for the first time in 3-4 years. And now sorc healers are back to the bottom of the heap by a good margin as Bioware removed empowered restorer and doesn't given sorc healers any overly useful set bonuses. Why on Earth would any data driven company do this? Obviously, they just don't care to use data to objectively move class balance in a positive direction.

 

Moreover, all range dps specs are under-performing relative to melee dps specs even more than in previous patches. Marauders and juggs are way overpowered. Lightning is in a very bad place as is engineering. Mercenary dps specs are completely unplayable in nim content, they're just that bad. Yet there are rumors Bioware is planning to NERF mercenaries even further. What planet are they living on?

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And by nobody you mean everyone that does not take part in OPS or even looks at damage/healing while grouped.

 

Elitism confirmed.

 

Also, the leveling scaling + extra health they gave mobs increased combat time. This has been complained about in mass in PTS and since its gone live. More people are complaining about them taking away skills, gear buffs than "ermagurd that other class can do more than me".

 

You are completely missing the point of this thread, and the point the others you are refuting are trying to make. There is no elitism happening here. People are actually advocating for others to be able to play what they want, and NOT have to worry about their class under-performing. This isn't an issue of elitism, spreadsheets, parsing, etc. The issue is that how scaling is currently, you literally CANNOT clear certain content, if you bring certain classes, in certain amounts. It is just numerically impossible, no matter how well the person plays. This is broken design, and it needs to be fixed.

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Moreover, all range dps specs are under-performing relative to melee dps specs

 

As it should be... Too many mechanics in this game work only aganinst melee (thats poor design btw not ranged classes fault), Previous to 7.0 sorcs pulled way more damaged as it should be, I have seen NiM groups way too often with only ranged classes, mostly 2-3 oft it sorcs.

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Just putting this out there.

 

After reading this thread and having not played since 6 point something or other. Playing my lvl 70 healing sorc is just waste of my time in any content that has more than 1 gold mob to kill ?

 

Just asking

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After reading this thread and having not played since 6 point something or other. Playing my lvl 70 healing sorc is just waste of my time in any content that has more than 1 gold mob to kill ?

 

The OP provided some links to numbers in his first post, look for yourself - maybe you could answer your question. :)

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Hardest content is a game mode which demands competence not just attendance. "Elitism" is a bad take of players looking at poor balance and being realistic.

 

Boss difficulty was increased to the point where players are obliged to very strongly consider the viability of a spec or class.

 

+30% damage in a real operation fight with 1 target between the worst and best spec.

+130% damage in a real operation fight with multitarget between the worst and best spec.

 

It's the same group at the bottom and the same group at the top no matter if it's a dummy parse or a genuine fight.

 

These are not differences you overcome with friendship and patience.

 

These are differences which say a player is an unreasonable burden to the team if they bring that spec or entire class and will contribute strongly to failing the fight and no one progressing.

 

True elitism would be gatekeeping over trivial differences.

 

Wanting a fair chance for all in this game content is very far from elitism.

Well said. I want to highlight this:

These are not differences you overcome with friendship and patience.

 

This is so true. With some team compositions, you might not be able to get past a boss no matter what. You can see it there in StarParse where the [boss+Adds HP] / [DPS] just exceeds enrage timer. Pure math.

 

This is not fair to paying customers (the players) who main these Disciplines.

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And by nobody you mean everyone that does not take part in OPS or even looks at damage/healing while grouped.

 

Elitism confirmed.

 

Also, the leveling scaling + extra health they gave mobs increased combat time. This has been complained about in mass in PTS and since its gone live. More people are complaining about them taking away skills, gear buffs than "ermagurd that other class can do more than me".

 

I hate to tell you this, but when it comes to raiding Number CAN matter. If a class is seriously not performing up to what is needed for it to perform in certain content then BW needs to do something to fix that. Every Operation boss has a DPS check. This means DPS are all expected to get at least a minimum amount of DPS for the group to kill that boss. If a class struggles to do that when played well, while other classes can easily do that when played only at a medium skill level that is a massive problem.

 

All classes should be able to hit the DPS or Healing checks to do ALL content from dailies/heroics to PvP to NiM operations.

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Just putting this out there.

 

After reading this thread and having not played since 6 point something or other. Playing my lvl 70 healing sorc is just waste of my time in any content that has more than 1 gold mob to kill ?

 

Just asking

There is no doubt that Seer/Corruption are under-performing. But, in this case, that is not a euphemism. The difference from Combat Medic/Bodyguard is not much. You could even 8 man all legacy (before Gods) VM Ops easily with 2 Seer/Corruption healers. But it'd be nice to see a balance pass to bring these 4 Disciplines up to the effectiveness of Saw Bones/Medicine. Edited by mike_carton
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