And they shot themselves in the foot even more by 1) removing amplifiers, 2) removing matrixes from CQ.

 

They removed the matrixes from CQ supposedly to help with inflation, which is totally backwards because it was a great way to get rich players to "transfer" their money to poorer ones. And amplifiers were pretty much the only credit sink.

 

So yeah.

 

That 1b GTN cap isn't helping either because no credits are lost in fees when people sell items in person over 1b.

BioWare need to limit the ability for players to trade more than 100 million credits between them outside of the GTN.

That would slow down the black market goods being sold outside of the GTN and close the loop hole people are using to avoid the GTN tax.

Look im not trying to offend you, im really not, but we all know the exploits happened... you ant unring that bell.

The method youve chosen has always been available, items didnt cost then what they cost now.

It doesnt rationalize how things have gone up 10 times or more in price is a such a short period of time unless a lot of people suddenly found a lot of expendable credits.

Just because they happened, doesn't mean the majority of players used them. Getting credits in this game, especially since 6.0 is easier then ever. Put in just a little bit of energy into trying to get credits, without spending them on things you don't need and credits add up extremely quickly.

If you werent here for the exploits, you can no longer compete.

The GTN for the top items is literally now limited to a handful of players, the rest of us dont even need to bother looking.

Eh?

I wasn't here for the exploits. I just got back, like I said in the thread.

And I've made around 8-9 billion so far (spent some, so I'm at 5 billion now).

I made over a billion just from selling materials. The rest I made from selling CM stuff I bought while discounted, but I could have just as easily done it by waiting for the inevitable drop in price after a sale, picked it up on the GTN and just waited a bit longer before selling.

There are several ways of making a lot of cash in the game.

If I had bothered with crafting, I could have made a billion or two more by selling various shades of black/red dyes since they are selling like hot-cakes.

CheesyEZ you are so right.

 

I re-subbed just recently to pick up my SWTOR game again, and are about to gear-up my tank and my healer.

Just to realize inflation is running amok, I simply want to get hold of MK-11 and decent augments to increase my shield rating.

 

But with this cost and me not being hard-core gamer, I mean a rating 286 shield augment 74 has a price of 50.000.000 are you kidding me ***.

 

Another game where the elitist few can play alone. I am not going to renew for next month.

 

Use to be able as a causual subber, to buy augments and a few fun armor sets to spice up my characters looks. but now come on.

 

They need to put some kind of tax on the super rich. this is out of control. I know elitist few will always disagree...

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm what you'd call a "casual" player.

I only do solo content, I don't do any end-game stuff (other than a few dailies every now and then) and I've made around 8-9 billion since I came back.

If you don't want to spend CC (I had a bunch saved over the years from subbing and having a security key), then you can still make a few billion by selling materials and playing the GTN.

There's no "elite" here... just people who actually bother to figure out the system.

BioWare need to limit the ability for players to trade more than 100 million credits between them outside of the GTN.

That would slow down the black market goods being sold outside of the GTN and close the loop hole people are using to avoid the GTN tax.

Yes. But, I'd prefer if they also upped the maximum sale price on the GTN to more than 1 billion.

Yes. But, I'd prefer if they also upped the maximum sale price on the GTN to more than 1 billion.

Why do they need to do that? If the put measures in place to curtail black market trading and put downward pressures on inflation, then you don’t need to sell above 1 billion credits.

Why do they need to do that? If the put measures in place to curtail black market trading and put downward pressures on inflation, then you don’t need to sell above 1 billion credits.

No, it only means you *can't* sell above 1 billion credits on the GTN, not that you can't do it at all.

With inflation right now, there are items that are actually worth more than 1 billion credits.

And players would simply find another way to trade for more than 1 billion (maybe trading crappy stuff for 100 million until they reach 1 billion, in your example). Most of those ways would be even more prone to scamming than they are today and they'd be more time consuming, but they'd still happen.

And most of all, they'd still be avoiding the credit sink of the tax system.

No, it only means you *can't* sell above 1 billion credits on the GTN, not that you can't do it at all.

 

With inflation right now, there are items that are actually worth more than 1 billion credits.

And players would simply find another way to trade for more than 1 billion (maybe trading crappy stuff for 100 million until they reach 1 billion, in your example). Most of those ways would be even more prone to scamming than they are today and they'd be more time consuming, but they'd still happen.

And most of all, they'd still be avoiding the credit sink of the tax system.

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think you comprehend what I’ve said.

If Bioware limit player to player trades outside the GTN to 100 million, then they don’t need to increase the GTN sale prices.

The idea here isn’t to have inflation continue or items be sold over 1 billion credits. Because realistically, there are no items that are worth that and you are mistaken saying that there are items worth more.

What you should say is their are fools willing to pay more than a Billion credits because of the inflationary pressures.

If Bioware apply some downward pressure to prices sooner rather than later, then you’ll not need to try selling items above 1 billion credits to keep up with inflation.

...that's quite a bizare subject/discussion here - just look at the amounts of money mentioned in this thread...

But I widely think too, there is too much inflation/greed/speculation/anarchy in the GTN at the moment across almost all servers.

However I am wondering how free-to-play (or preferrred) playing (still) fits into this situation.

Selling things may work (well) though, but with a 1'000'000 money limit the GTN as interesting source for crafting mats - that is probably rather obsolete right now.

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think you comprehend what I’ve said.

 

If Bioware limit player to player trades outside the GTN to 100 million, then they don’t need to increase the GTN sale prices.

 

The idea here isn’t to have inflation continue or items be sold over 1 billion credits. Because realistically, there are no items that are worth that and you are mistaken saying that there are items worth more.

 

What you should say is their are fools willing to pay more than a Billion credits because of the inflationary pressures.

 

If Bioware apply some downward pressure to prices sooner rather than later, then you’ll not need to try selling items above 1 billion credits to keep up with inflation.

Here's the thing... things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

And there are items out there that are rare enough that people are willing to pay more than 1 billion for them.

And yes, if they manage to push inflation down, then you won't need to sell items for over 1 billion.

But they'll never manage to push inflation down. At best they'll be able to stop inflation from spiraling any more.

But where we're at, is where we're at.

Here's the thing... things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

 

And there are items out there that are rare enough that people are willing to pay more than 1 billion for them.

 

And yes, if they manage to push inflation down, then you won't need to sell items for over 1 billion.

 

But they'll never manage to push inflation down. At best they'll be able to stop inflation from spiraling any more.

 

But where we're at, is where we're at.

Sure, I understand what you are saying and what you’re suggesting is to just let inflation run rampant.

Which is missing the point of the rest of the discussion and topic, which is inflation is out of control and it’s turned into hyperinflation because Bioware are super slow to react.

The only way to fix that is by putting in mechanisms to limit player to player trades (outside the GTN) and putting downward pressure on prices.

There are many ways to do this, but there is also no one golden bullet solution that will fix it all. Bioware need to approach the problem on multiple fronts if they plan on alleviating the hyperinflation.

* Some mechanisms they could use is increasing the free supply of CM items. Ways they can do that are :

1. Dropping CM prices

2. Adding all CM items to the store permanently

3. Giving away more CC in the game more often (and not have such big breaks between giveaways).

* Some other mechanisms they could use are more Credit sinks or adjustments to current ones.

1. Add a scaled % on the listing price based how much you list for. And you only get 50% of the list price back

2. Change the flat GTN tax to a scaled tax based on how much you sell for. The higher the price, the more tax.

3. Add more credit sinks into the game for cosmetic items. Ie get rid of CM certificate requirements at some vendors and make them purely credit vendors.

4. Reintroduce some of the old crafted schematics into the game and make them purchasable at vendors.

* And to prevent players circumventing the GTN credit sinks, Bioware can place limits on how much players can trade between themselves outside of the GTN.

* Bioware have already announced steps to reduce the flow of new credits in 7.0. So I don’t think they need to Nerf that anymore.

If they were to combine those ideas above (which aren’t all mine by the way), then it would definitely put downward pressures on inflation and no one would be successfully selling anything for a billion credits.

Sure, I understand what you are saying and what you’re suggesting is to just let inflation run rampant.

 

Which is missing the point of the rest of the discussion and topic, which is inflation is out of control and it’s turned into hyperinflation because Bioware are super slow to react.

 

The only way to fix that is by putting in mechanisms to limit player to player trades (outside the GTN) and putting downward pressure on prices.

 

There are many ways to do this, but there is also no one golden bullet solution that will fix it all. Bioware need to approach the problem on multiple fronts if they plan on alleviating the hyperinflation.

 

* Some mechanisms they could use is increasing the free supply of CM items. Ways they can do that are :

1. Dropping CM prices

2. Adding all CM items to the store permanently

3. Giving away more CC in the game more often (and not have such big breaks between giveaways).

 

* Some other mechanisms they could use are more Credit sinks or adjustments to current ones.

1. Add a scaled % on the listing price based how much you list for. And you only get 50% of the list price back

2. Change the flat GTN tax to a scaled tax based on how much you sell for. The higher the price, the more tax.

3. Add more credit sinks into the game for cosmetic items. Ie get rid of CM certificate requirements at some vendors and make them purely credit vendors.

4. Reintroduce some of the old crafted schematics into the game and make them purchasable at vendors.

 

* And to prevent players circumventing the GTN credit sinks, Bioware can place limits on how much players can trade between themselves outside of the GTN.

 

* Bioware have already announced steps to reduce the flow of new credits in 7.0. So I don’t think they need to Nerf that anymore.

 

If they were to combine those ideas above (which aren’t all mine by the way), then it would definitely put downward pressures on inflation and no one would be successfully selling anything for a billion credits.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

What you're essentially saying is that the only way to stop inflation is to set a limit to how much people are allowed to pay for things.

That's not how inflation works.

The money is already in the system.

And there's simply not enough credit sinks in the game to make that go away.

You can't really fix inflation after it's happened, you can only stop it from spiraling more. (unless you take drastic measures like introducing a completely new currency and making the old currency completely redundant, or just taking peoples money away)

Millions and Billions are the new norm for sales, but they can put steps in to prevent Trillions from being the new norm.

All of the suggestions you mention (with the exception of keeping the GTN cap on 1 billion) I agree with.

The reason I want them to increase the limit on the GTN isn't so that prices can keep going up, but rather so that the Tax credit sink can remove more credits faster.

If people are selling things for more than 1 billion on the GTN, then the taxes will be removing more credits as well.

If you combine that with the other measures, Inflation may actually stop and prices will stabilize. Most likely to a point where very few things will be sold for more than 1 billion, and maybe even nothing getting sold for more than 1 billion in the end.

But on the road to that goal, things need to be allowed to be sold for more than 1 billion.

I'm not asking for them to "unleash inflation" or anything like that.

I don't own anything worth more than 1 billion (nor do I intend to), that I can sell.

I'm not asking for selfish reasons.

I'm asking because it would actually help stem inflation due to the credit sink working faster.

Yes, I understand why you want a 1 billion cap to stay in combination with making it harder for people to sell things privately (because you can never stop it fully, unless you truly stop all private trade).

But that's short sighted and leans into the notion of high prices being the actual inflation instead of a symptom of inflation.

High prices are not inflation.

Massive amounts of credits per player is inflation.

A massive influx of new credits without them being removed from the game is inflation.

The high prices are just a symptom.

It's like saying that you should put a gag on someone to stop them from sneezing as a cure for the common cold.

The sneezing is a symptom, it's not the disease.

If people are selling things for more than 1 billion on the GTN, then the taxes will be removing more credits as well.

6% tax on a sold 1k-credit item are the same 6% on a sold 1 billion item.

Removing exactly the same value; namely 6%.

6% tax on a sold 1k-credit item are the same 6% on a sold 1 billion item.

Removing exactly the same value; namely 6%.

The implication is that prices over 1 Billion credits can currently only be handled through player to player trades where there is no tax / credit sink. So that offers a way around the credit sink and is actually more desirable to the seller. So by removing the price limit on the GTN, those transactions can still be included and offer credit sink potential.

I just want to repeat myself.

"10th year Celebration Vendor" who sells {WIDGETS} from years / packs past.

{WIDGETS} cost credits and are BoL. Hold on, getting a call.

"Hello?"...."Yes"..."I understand, but I'm trying to offer a solution"..."What's that? CM is your cash cow you use to fund other games?"...."Yes,"...."Yes"...."Bye"

Never mind.

The implication is that prices over 1 Billion credits can currently only be handled through player to player trades where there is no tax / credit sink. So that offers a way around the credit sink and is actually more desirable to the seller. So by removing the price limit on the GTN, those transactions can still be included and offer credit sink potential.

Logically this makes sense. But it also doesn’t put a cap on the inflation or put downward pressure on it and it’s why I’m against it.

Bioware can very simply fix this loop hole by restricting the amount that people can transfer in player to player trades. Or better yet, add a trade tax that is the same or higher than the GTN sales tax.

Logically this makes sense. But it also doesn’t put a cap on the inflation or put downward pressure on it and it’s why I’m against it.

 

Bioware can very simply fix this loop hole by restricting the amount that people can transfer in player to player trades. Or better yet, add a trade tax that is the same or higher than the GTN sales tax.

You can't put a cap on inflation or downward pressure on it by putting a hard limit on the maximum price of items.

All that does is force the people who are greedy to sell things in a more direct manner.

And you can't stop that unless you stop all trade.

They can't "fix the loophole" because even if they restrict the amount that people can transfer, they'll only use multiple toons to transfer.

And even then, all it would do is slow down the time it takes to make the trade.

Have a hard limit of 100 million for private trades?

Fine, I'll trade you that Satele Shan Dualsaber for eight of those other items that are worth 1 billion on the GTN.

Or pay me in installments over time.

There really is no stopping it unless you put a complete halt on player-to-player direct trade.

And that just won't happen.

But the whole point here isn't about that anyway. My point is that if you try to stifle trade, you'll actually prolong inflation since you're slowing down the removal of credits from the system. Open up trade and more people will sell things on the GTN (it's less of a hassle, after all) and that money will be pulled out of the system faster.

And again, this way of thinking is falling into the trap of symptom vs actual disease.

The high prices are just the symptom. Suppressing the symptom will not remove the disease.

6% tax on a sold 1k-credit item are the same 6% on a sold 1 billion item.

Removing exactly the same value; namely 6%.

Yes, that is how percentages work.

But we're not talking about percentages.

We're talking about the removal of actual credits.

6% of your paycheck is not the same as 6% of a CEO's paycheck.

I mean, it's still 6%, but I'm sure you'd rather have the CEO's 6% in your pocket than yours.

Opening up the cap on GTN sales will remove more credits faster from the system.

You can't put a cap on inflation or downward pressure on it by putting a hard limit on the maximum price of items.

 

All that does is force the people who are greedy to sell things in a more direct manner.

 

And you can't stop that unless you stop all trade.

 

They can't "fix the loophole" because even if they restrict the amount that people can transfer, they'll only use multiple toons to transfer.

And even then, all it would do is slow down the time it takes to make the trade.

Have a hard limit of 100 million for private trades?

Fine, I'll trade you that Satele Shan Dualsaber for eight of those other items that are worth 1 billion on the GTN.

Or pay me in installments over time.

 

There really is no stopping it unless you put a complete halt on player-to-player direct trade.

And that just won't happen.

 

But the whole point here isn't about that anyway. My point is that if you try to stifle trade, you'll actually prolong inflation since you're slowing down the removal of credits from the system. Open up trade and more people will sell things on the GTN (it's less of a hassle, after all) and that money will be pulled out of the system faster.

 

And again, this way of thinking is falling into the trap of symptom vs actual disease.

 

The high prices are just the symptom. Suppressing the symptom will not remove the disease.

 

Opening up the cap on GTN sales will remove more credits faster from the system.

You’re still missing one important factor. NOTHING is or should ever be worth a Billion credits. So they shouldn’t even allow any GTN trades at a billion, but because they have, people are trying to sell for that. That doesn’t mean they should up the limit because some people are dumb enough to pay it.

And while you are correct that some people would try and circumvent a credit limit on trades, they were doing that before prices even reached a billion on the GTN. But the majority still used the GTN because it’s easier. Putting a 100 million limit on player to player trades would interrupt the ease of trading between players outside of the GTN.

Your suggestions on how to by pass the limit would also be a less secure way of trading because you’d have some unscrupulous players who’d promise to do multi trades and then only pay once or have the seller not pass the trade over when the last of credits changed hands. And sure, some will do it, but the majority won’t.

You’re also only looking at this from one angle. If BioWare were to add a sliding sales tax on the GTN that tops out at around 20% (it could be a combo of sales tax and listing fee or just sales tax), then people aren’t going to want to lose too much in tax by unscrupulously listing at a Billion credits. Plus 20% of a Billion credits is a huge amount of credits removed from the game. I don’t think it would be long till prices dropped as credits at those levels dried up. Negating the need to increase the credit limit on the GTN to remove credits.

NOTHING is or should ever be worth a Billion credits.

Why not?! What is the basis for that assertion? You might believe so but that doesn't make it a law of the universe.

Somebody else can assert - with equal authority - that "<something> is worth 2 billion credits."

I myself assert that "An in-game item is worth what two players are willing to exchange it for."

Years ago one of the fast food chains had a promotion wherein with the purchase of a particular meal, you got a stuffed {WIDGET} (Might be "Beanie Babies' don't quot4e me). They were a 99 cent toy, undoubtedly made in China.

Folks went NUTS trying to collect all of them. The "value" of certain 'rare' ones, (or at least hard to find in your area) skyrocketed to $100 + dollars apiece. Now, was the stupid plushie actually "worth" $250? Not to me. However, some people were willing to pay that much.

A better example of this screwed-up economy is the notion of "digital rarity". EA could put anything in their assets back on the CM, or ON A BoL CREDITS-ONLY vendor, and solve a lot of the problems of "too much money".

But they won't.

Logically this makes sense. But it also doesn’t put a cap on the inflation or put downward pressure on it and it’s why I’m against it.

 

Bioware can very simply fix this loop hole by restricting the amount that people can transfer in player to player trades. Or better yet, add a trade tax that is the same or higher than the GTN sales tax.

As pointed out, you can't "cap inflation." There are 2 basic things that can combat inflation:

1: Limit the influx of game generated credits.

--- Pros: the rate at which credits enter the game is reduced causing the value of existing credits to stay higher longer.

--- Cons: This adversely effects new / newer players much more than established players. It actually creates the sense of "unfair" pricing in player-based sales.

2: Increase credit sinks.

--- Pros: Credit sinks work. They remove credits from the game. Removing credits from the game restores value to existing credits.

--- Cons: Credit sinks seem evil to players that don't understand their purpose. When combined with a reduced influx of game generated credits, new / newer players need more time to "get ahead."

Those are the only 2 options that can combat (not cap) inflation. I suppose one can argue that game action toward 3rd person (gold spammer) sites that take advantage of lazy gamers with credit cards could be a logical 3rd method, but for some reason the gaming industry doesn't spend much resources here.

I've read a lot of your posts over the years and know that you know just how easy it is to make credits today. When you compare this to 5 years ago, 8 years ago, 9 years ago ... only one thing has changed. The amount of credits per player based transaction has changed. For example, to buy the "Super Cool Sithy Armor Set" 9 years ago, I would have needed to earn 800,000 credits, which would have taken a long time. At that time, the cost of abilities at the trainer prevented me from saving a lot of credits while leveling. So 800,000 spare credits was hard to sacrifice. To buy the "Super Cool Sithy Armor Set" 2 years ago would have required up to 180,000,000 credits. That would have been impossible (to afford) 9 years ago and if you saw that listing on the GTN you would know that the "seller" was merely taking advantage of a storage loophole in the game. However, the time it takes me to acquire 180,000,000 credits 2 years ago is on par with the time it took me to acquire 800,000 credits 9years ago. Today, the "Super Cool Sithy Armor Set" is being listed for 1 billion credits. Again, 1 billion credits today can be acquired just as easily as 180,000,000 credits 2 years ago. It's all relative. People are looking at the credit number and freaking out (i.e Player A left the game 4 years ago and returned to sub 2 weeks ago and was "floored by the unreasonable GTN prices!!! BIOWARE DO SOMETHING!!!" ). The credit number changed significantly, but the relative time to afford that item has not really changed over time.

So I contend that "credit inflation = bad" is a myth. It's a result of more credits being generated in the game than removed. It simply has to happen unless anybody really thinks people will play a game where the opposite is true (nobody will grind playing time in a game that taxes the player more than it rewards). People naturally like to earn things, acquire things, save, get in a comfortable situation. It's what we strive to do in real life and how humans are conditioned.

I have nothing against combatting credit inflation. I strongly support credit sinks. But in 7.0, I see a real problem with how they are going about it. The gearing in 6.0 was supposed to be the major credit sink. Much of that credit sink is being removed by overhauling the system and removing amplifiers, and modifiable gear. The only "effort" being made to combat inflation is a reward nerf. This is laughable. That won't even come close to making up for the credit sinks they are removing alone. Do the math. 7.0 will do the opposite of "combatting inflation" and will only create a larger divide between the haves and the have nots.

I have nothing against combatting credit inflation. I strongly support credit sinks. But in 7.0, I see a real problem with how they are going about it. The gearing in 6.0 was supposed to be the major credit sink. Much of that credit sink is being removed by overhauling the system and removing amplifiers, and modifiable gear. The only "effort" being made to combat inflation is a reward nerf. This is laughable. That won't even come close to making up for the credit sinks they are removing alone. Do the math. 7.0 will do the opposite of "combatting inflation" and will only create a larger divide between the haves and the have nots.

I completely agree with what you are saying here and sadly, I think you’re assessment on what will happen is spot on. It’s why I keep trying to offer suggestions on the forums in the slim hope our discussions are passed onto the devs.

I know I don’t have all the answers, but one thing I do know is BioWare need to approach this from multiple directions if they want to have any impact on addressing the issue.

You’re correct that their current announced approach of only reducing credits isn’t going to cut it. Especially when they are removing the amplifier credit sink and most of the gearing credit sinks in 7.0.

I really hope our discussions are drawing some attention and the Devs read everyone’s ideas and the pros and cons we present.

If we’re lucky, they have some other ideas or credits sinks planned already. If we’re unlucky, this problem will only get worse.

You’re still missing one important factor. NOTHING is or should ever be worth a Billion credits.

That is your opinion.

Sadly, economies don't work on your opinion.

Things are worth what people are willing to pay for the item.

I mean, a diamond isn't worth what you pay for it. It's no more expensive to dig out of the ground than coal is, and the cutting process isn't more expensive than it is to make an industrial diamond.

Bit you pay what the market decides it's worth.

(and just to avoid any discussion about artificial scarcity, the same thing can be said about a Ferrari.)

Hypercrate is about 1.8-2B now on SF, woot!

Bioware really need to remove or seriously nerf the Trade function otherwise the inflation would only get worst.

Make credit Trade limit to 1M and put a time limit on it.

For example, you can only Trade once with a single Legacy in 3 hour.

It will force people back to buy/sell through the GTN. The price ceiling would be 1B, and there's that 8% tax.

Even if people come up with alternative currencies like "WTS Tulak Hord's Lightsaber, 1M+8xB/B dye", all the alternative currencies have to circle through the GTN where the price cap and credit sink still apply, thus there will still be a total upper limit of an item price, unlike in the real world where even the sky is not the limit.

Hypercrate is about 1.8-2B now on SF, woot!

Bioware really need to remove or seriously nerf the Trade function otherwise the inflation would only get worst.

 

Make credit Trade limit to 1M and put a time limit on it.

For example, you can only Trade once with a single Legacy in 3 hour.

 

It will force people back to buy/sell through the GTN. The price ceiling would be 1B, and there's that 8% tax.

 

Even if people come up with alternative currencies like "WTS Tulak Hord's Lightsaber, 1M+8xB/B dye", all the alternative currencies have to circle through the GTN where the price cap and credit sink still apply, thus there will still be a total upper limit of an item price, unlike in the real world where even the sky is not the limit.

Agreed. They need to close the loop hole trading outside of the GTN. But they also need to put some actual downward pressures on inflation. So far, all we know they are doing is reducing credit rewards from conquest, which won’t reduce inflation on its own.

Not only that, but BioWare are removing two really large credit sinks in 7.0. Ie, Amplifiers removed and the majority of gearing and min-maxing costs will reduce by 99%. Which will actually put upwards pressure on inflation.

I guess we will find out if Bioware actually cares or is taking this issue seriously when 7.0 releases. If they have no other measures in place besides nerfing conquest credits, then we know they don’t care.

then we know they don’t care.

Thought that was the consensus already?