I hate to be a killjoy to the pseudo philosophy going on in this thread, but "balance" in the Force doesn't actually mean an equal amount of Light and Dark, it means a complete absence of the Sith.

I have a serious question regarding this. How does Abeloth fit into that? Wouldn't that make any balance an impossibility? I know she isn't Sith, but she is a pure dark side entity.

I hate to be a killjoy to the pseudo philosophy going on in this thread, but "balance" in the Force doesn't actually mean an equal amount of Light and Dark, it means a complete absence of the Sith.

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything."

-George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

"The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe. Just as with any aspect of life and death, both the Dark Side and the Light Side are intertwined with each other, are necessary to each other and form a cosmic balance."

-The Dark Empire Sourcebook

And from the recent Mortis arc:

"It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation...Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it."

The Father, who keeps control over the Daughter and the Son i.e. maintains balance, seeks the Chosen One to replace him. Proving the Chosen One would restore balance to the Force through balancing the light with the dark, not destroying the dark side. This is a common misconception based on one quote were Lucas says the Force is a 'cancer'. This is the believe held by the Jedi, that restoring balance involves destroying the Sith.

But according to Wookieepedia:

George Lucas himself has stated that Anakin is the Chosen One and that the prophecy is true, although it had been misinterpreted by the entire Jedi Order.[12][13]

So yes I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things.

^This.

I'm guessing this is why you don't like the Ones.

Maaaybeee...

*snip*

None of this contradicts what Aximand said. The Sith's use of the Dark Side throw the Force out of whack because they try to bend the Force to their will (see the creation of the Chosen One). Thus, removing the Sith restores balance to the Force.

None of this contradicts what Aximand said. The Sith's use of the Dark Side throw the Force out of whack because they try to bend the Force to their will (see the creation of the Chosen One). Thus, removing the Sith restores balance to the Force.

In a sense, yes, but I don't think that is what Aximand is saying. Because that doesn't contradict anything we have been saying. Note however its not the dark side itself that throws the Force out of whack, but the Sith Order's desire to propagate it.

Aximand said that balance comes from the absence of the Sith. No, the Dark Side doesn't throw it out of whack, but the Sith do when they bend the Force to their will. Again, we saw what happened when Plagueis and Sidious tried to do this, the Force struck back by creating a being to destroy them.

Aximand said that balance comes from the absence of the Sith. No, the Dark Side doesn't throw it out of whack, but the Sith do when they bend the Force to their will. Again, we saw what happened when Plagueis and Sidious tried to do this, the Force struck back by creating a being to destroy them.

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe.

That single nature being the Force.

Well if that is indeed what he is implying then it doesn't contradict anything that has been said here. Balance between the lightside and the darkside has to be maintained, the Force is still neutral to either and it can still be argued that light and dark are merely imprints of a Force user on the Force. This I feel is what the Dark Empire Sourcebook seems to be actually suggesting:

 

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe.

 

That single nature being the Force.

Well, George said that it has two sides, so that's what I'm willing to believe.

It's a mysterious thing, the Force. I'm not very good at discussing this topic.

Holy hell, Aximand, you're back?!

Yes Ma'am.

gosh darn it Aximand, It's Rayla now reply to me you nerf herder.

I figured it was you.

Jacen had this conversation with Verge for like 4 or more books. You'll all end up Sith by the end of this...

I like my man Jacen's take on the Unifying Force but honestly, Living Force is G-cannon and also has Force Ghosts.

Light and Dark, The natural state of the Force is Life. So the Dark Side is the Corruption, Evil, and Death found in nature that disrupts this balance. To have balance, remove the corruption. 1 sith, 1 jedi wouldn't work because the Sith is corruption. 1 jedi, 0 sith would work for balance because there is no corruption and thus a perfect natural Force. That is my interpretation of the point of the prophesy so often cited in the prequel movies.

I like the example of a garden, ideally it is blooming, healthy, and alive. If you introduce a weed, that weed spreads, chokes, and kills your garden. The weeds themselves can sometimes appear nice but are often ugly. Or poisons, or animals... You then have a bunch of dead, withering, and ugly plants. To save your garden, you weed it, clean it, and you guard it to remove all the harmful elements.

I do agree with Beni on much of his opinion on how the Light-Dark 'Sides' came about IU.

I like G-cannon for my force interpretations because so many EU sources (particularly the older novels) have conflicting views on the force themselves that are at times unable to be reconciled.

Like Revan being a master of both sides of the force at once...

Yes Ma'am.

 

 

 

I figured it was you.

Well then you better return to the Star Wars discussion section properly and join in our debates, we could certainly do with having you back here.

Jacen had this conversation with Verge for like 4 or more books. You'll all end up Sith by the end of this...

 

I like my man Jacen's take on the Unifying Force but honestly, Living Force is G-cannon and also has Force Ghosts.

 

Light and Dark, The natural state of the Force is Life. So the Dark Side is the Corruption, Evil, and Death found in nature that disrupts this balance. To have balance, remove the corruption. 1 sith, 1 jedi wouldn't work because the Sith is corruption. 1 jedi, 0 sith would work for balance because there is no corruption and thus a perfect natural Force. That is my interpretation of the point of the prophesy so often cited in the prequel movies.

 

I like the example of a garden, ideally it is blooming, healthy, and alive. If you introduce a weed, that weed spreads, chokes, and kills your garden. The weeds themselves can sometimes appear nice but are often ugly. Or poisons, or animals... You then have a bunch of dead, withering, and ugly plants. To save your garden, you weed it, clean it, and you guard it to remove all the harmful elements.

 

I do agree with Beni on much of his opinion on how the Light-Dark 'Sides' came about IU.

 

I like G-cannon for my force interpretations because so many EU sources (particularly the older novels) have conflicting views on the force themselves that are at times unable to be reconciled.

 

Like Revan being a master of both sides of the force at once...

Take your garden for example. The plants it your garden will ultimately wither and die, but this is not necessarily a bad thing because death is a natural part of life, and new plants will feed off that death and new life will bloom up.

Similarly the light and dark work symbiotically, the light side is creation and the dark side destruction, light and shadow. One cannot exist without the other. Basically the idea that the dark side is a cancer has been overridden.

And I believe the Living Force and Unifying Force are reconcilable. There is light and dark, but ultimately the Force transcends both energies and does not favour either.

Jacen had this conversation with Verge for like 4 or more books. You'll all end up Sith by the end of this...

 

I like my man Jacen's take on the Unifying Force but honestly, Living Force is G-cannon and also has Force Ghosts.

 

Light and Dark, The natural state of the Force is Life. So the Dark Side is the Corruption, Evil, and Death found in nature that disrupts this balance. To have balance, remove the corruption. 1 sith, 1 jedi wouldn't work because the Sith is corruption. 1 jedi, 0 sith would work for balance because there is no corruption and thus a perfect natural Force. That is my interpretation of the point of the prophesy so often cited in the prequel movies.

 

I like the example of a garden, ideally it is blooming, healthy, and alive. If you introduce a weed, that weed spreads, chokes, and kills your garden. The weeds themselves can sometimes appear nice but are often ugly. Or poisons, or animals... You then have a bunch of dead, withering, and ugly plants. To save your garden, you weed it, clean it, and you guard it to remove all the harmful elements.

 

I do agree with Beni on much of his opinion on how the Light-Dark 'Sides' came about IU.

 

I like G-cannon for my force interpretations because so many EU sources (particularly the older novels) have conflicting views on the force themselves that are at times unable to be reconciled.

 

Like Revan being a master of both sides of the force at once...

I get your idea, but a garden is not a good analogy, a garden is artificial, and grossly out of balance (we replant species so the plants don't even try to propigate (not that they can)), the weeds are actually just plants that we don't want (that's the definition of a weed), they are natural plants, unaltered by people, any while they disrupt a garden they don't necessarily destroy it.

When a garden is over-run with weeds we call this going to seed, because in the Victorian period Gardeners would gather some of the seeds (plants they thought they could adapt to a garden). If you use the garden as an analogy, the Sith are the regular plants, and the weeds are the Jedi (and other force users), since the garden is unnatural and the weeds embody nature.

Also I can't agree that the Sith by themselves create an imbalance in the force, Sith in the wrong place and time I can see doing that, but not Sith just by existing. If it was all darksiders, then you might have the basis of an argument, but since Sith beliefs and even species change over time, it is straining the theory past breaking point. It sounds like the kind of creed someone makes up for the fact that Jedi are constantly fighting the Sith, rather than a true reflection of what the actual balance is.

Also I can't agree that the Sith by themselves create an imbalance in the force, Sith in the wrong place and time I can see doing that, but not Sith just by existing. If it was all darksiders, then you might have the basis of an argument, but since Sith beliefs and even species change over time, it is straining the theory past breaking point. It sounds like the kind of creed someone makes up for the fact that Jedi are constantly fighting the Sith, rather than a true reflection of what the actual balance is.

But no, Sith just existing doesn't do anything. The Sith of the Rule of Two existed for 1000 years and did not disrupt the balance until the very end. The fact that the Sith and the dark side have to be destroyed to restore balance is the misguided, narrow-minded, dogmatic approach of the Jedi.

Also I can't agree that the Sith by themselves create an imbalance in the force, Sith in the wrong place and time I can see doing that, but not Sith just by existing. If it was all darksiders, then you might have the basis of an argument, but since Sith beliefs and even species change over time, it is straining the theory past breaking point. It sounds like the kind of creed someone makes up for the fact that Jedi are constantly fighting the Sith, rather than a true reflection of what the actual balance is.

Except, you know, they did.

That's what the entire six movies was about. The prophecy of the Son of Suns (Anakin being born on Tatooine) was that one would be born that would destroy the Sith and bring the Balance back to the Force. The Banite Sith, just by existing, created the imbalance. Palpatine himself was the culmination of this. People don't realize it without reading the books, but Sidious was so balls to the wall powerful, he blunted the Force senses of the entire Jedi Order just by existing.

When Yoda said "clouded the future is" at the end of (I think) The Clone Wars movie, he was being quite literal there. Palpatine's mere existence created such a huge imbalance in the Dark Side's favor that he was blocking the entire Jedi Order's and Yoda in particular, ability to divine the future.

All the Sith that came about after Sidius and Vader aren't real Sith, they're pretenders to a dead legacy. They may call themselves Sith, and they may know the Sith Code, but they aren't in the same league as the last two, Jacen included, I'm sad to say. The Sith, and the imbalance in the Force, died when Anakin turned his back on the Dark Side and Sidious was destroyed.

Except, you know, they did.

 

That's what the entire six movies was about. The prophecy of the Son of Suns (Anakin being born on Tatooine) was that one would be born that would destroy the Sith and bring the Balance back to the Force. The Banite Sith, just by existing, created the imbalance. Palpatine himself was the culmination of this. People don't realize it without reading the books, but Sidious was so balls to the wall powerful, he blunted the Force senses of the entire Jedi Order just by existing.

 

When Yoda said "clouded the future is" at the end of (I think) The Clone Wars movie, he was being quite literal there. Palpatine's mere existence created such a huge imbalance in the Dark Side's favor that he was blocking the entire Jedi Order's and Yoda in particular, ability to divine the future.

 

All the Sith that came about after Sidius and Vader aren't real Sith, they're pretenders to a dead legacy. They may call themselves Sith, and they may know the Sith Code, but they aren't in the same league as the last two, Jacen included, I'm sad to say. The Sith, and the imbalance in the Force, died when Anakin turned his back on the Dark Side and Sidious was destroyed.

This precisely.

Also, come back full time, this place is a lot better with you around, Star Wars discussion that is.

This precisely.

 

Also, come back full time, this place is a lot better with you around, Star Wars discussion that is.

I'm back in game as well.

Except, you know, they did.

 

That's what the entire six movies was about. The prophecy of the Son of Suns (Anakin being born on Tatooine) was that one would be born that would destroy the Sith and bring the Balance back to the Force. The Banite Sith, just by existing, created the imbalance. Palpatine himself was the culmination of this. People don't realize it without reading the books, but Sidious was so balls to the wall powerful, he blunted the Force senses of the entire Jedi Order just by existing.

 

When Yoda said "clouded the future is" at the end of (I think) The Clone Wars movie, he was being quite literal there. Palpatine's mere existence created such a huge imbalance in the Dark Side's favor that he was blocking the entire Jedi Order's and Yoda in particular, ability to divine the future.

 

All the Sith that came about after Sidius and Vader aren't real Sith, they're pretenders to a dead legacy. They may call themselves Sith, and they may know the Sith Code, but they aren't in the same league as the last two, Jacen included, I'm sad to say. The Sith, and the imbalance in the Force, died when Anakin turned his back on the Dark Side and Sidious was destroyed.

Thought it should be noted that the Force only became out of balance by the time of Plagueis and Sidious - that's almost 1,000 years of the Sith existing, and the Force being in balance.

I'm back in game as well.

Well hopefully you can make sense out of the ludicrous vitiate/palpatine and take a crack at the jedi list.

I agree with what your saying, but I don't see how that negates anything anybody has sad prievously. In the end balance in the Force is equality between light and dark.

 

Thought it should be noted that the Force only became out of balance by the time of Plagueis and Sidious - that's almost 1,000 years of the Sith existing, and the Force being in balance.

A lot of others are operating under the assumption that "balance" means "equal parts of both" in this case. Star Wars is weird in that "Balance" means that the Jedi are in ascendance and that the Light Side overpowers the Dark Side. George made Star Wars to be a very stark conflict between Good vs Evil, without any room for middle ground where the Force is concerned. The Dark Side, as used by sentient beings, is a corruption of the Light. Death isn't actually an expression of the Dark Side, it is just that being's essence releasing from the material plane and becoming one with the Force once again. Now before you say anything involving "but things die all the time in Star Wars without disappearing", yes, that's true, but the ones that disappear and fade away are the Jedi (key word there) that have achieved full mastery of the Force or the Sith (the other key word) that were so corrupt their dead flesh literally couldn't contain their corruption after their passing, Palpatine is the most prominent of these (and maybe Bat Crap Insane Revan, depending).

Now this doesn't mean that there aren't natural Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy and that the Dark Side doesn't occur naturally, there are and it does, but the vast majority of them only became so through the interference of Sith or other Dark Side practitioners and wouldn't have become half as powerful as they are without outside interference. I believe the jungles of Dromund Kaas were naturally powerful in the Dark Side, and only became more so after the Sith moved in and started messing around with their Sithy experiments.

No, that's when the prophecy culminated. The Force had been out of balance for centuries before then, the Jedi just weren't aware of it so blatantly as when Palpatine was in power. It was Darth Tenebrous' Master (if I remember correctly) that tore open the veil of secrecy (and the boundary between Light and Dark, letting the Dark corrupt the Light) and let the Jedi know that their doom was approaching.

A lot of others are operating under the assumption that "balance" means "equal parts of both" in this case. Star Wars is weird in that "Balance" means that the Jedi are in ascendance and that the Light Side overpowers the Dark Side. George made Star Wars to be a very stark conflict between Good vs Evil, without any room for middle ground where the Force is concerned. The Dark Side, as used by sentient beings, is a corruption of the Light. Death isn't actually an expression of the Dark Side, it is just that being's essence releasing from the material plane and becoming one with the Force once again. Now before you say anything involving "but things die all the time in Star Wars without disappearing", yes, that's true, but the ones that disappear and fade away are the Jedi (key word there) that have achieved full mastery of the Force or the Sith (the other key word) that were so corrupt their dead flesh literally couldn't contain their corruption after their passing, Palpatine is the most prominent of these (and maybe Bat Crap Insane Revan, depending).

 

Now this doesn't mean that there aren't natural Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy and that the Dark Side doesn't occur naturally, there are and it does, but the vast majority of them only became so through the interference of Sith or other Dark Side practitioners and wouldn't have become half as powerful as they are without outside interference. I believe the jungles of Dromund Kaas were naturally powerful in the Dark Side, and only became more so after the Sith moved in and started messing around with their Sithy experiments.

 

No, that's when the prophecy culminated. The Force had been out of balance for centuries before then, the Jedi just weren't aware of it so blatantly as when Palpatine was in power. It was Darth Tenebrous' Master (if I remember correctly) that tore open the veil of secrecy (and the boundary between Light and Dark, letting the Dark corrupt the Light) and let the Jedi know that their doom was approaching.

Well it is an interesting question, which side is 'better' - the light or the dark?

I think the reason the light is seemingly more in-tune with the Force is because it doesn't attempt to control the Force on the level that the dark side does. Yet despite the fact that dark side is corruption, it would seem its necessary for the light to exist. Just like you can't have creation without destruction, or light without shadow, good without evil or purity without corruption. So while the dark side may seem opposed to the Force and a 'cancer' its singular virtue - the fact that it allows for the light side - makes it equal.

Or at least that is how I see it.

P.S. Yes, the shift to the dark side became with Tenebrous' master, but before that the Sith existed just fine and the Force was in balance. So the Sith don't necessarily have to be destroyed to bring balance, its just they are more likely to send the Force out of balance in their quest for ultimate power.

I'd like to make it clear that balance in the Force is literally balance, equal measures of light side and dark side in the galaxy. This is practically G-Canon and the Mortis episodes have deeply rooted it in Star Wars mythos. The idea that restoring balance in the Force involves eradicating the Sith is the misguided view of the Jedi.

 

Well it is an interesting question, which side is 'better' - the light or the dark?

 

I think the reason the light is seemingly more in-tune with the Force is because it doesn't attempt to control the Force on the level that the dark side does. Yet despite the fact that dark side is corruption, it would seem its necessary for the light to exist. Just like you can't have creation without destruction, or light without shadow, good without evil or purity without corruption. So while the dark side may seem opposed to the Force and a 'cancer' its singular virtue - the fact that it allows for the light side - makes it equal.

 

Or at least that is how I see it.

 

P.S. Yes, the shift to the dark side became with Tenebrous' master, but before that the Sith existed just fine and the Force was in balance. So the Sith don't necessarily have to be destroyed to bring balance, its just they are more likely to send the Force out of balance in their quest for ultimate power.

Even in Mortis the dark and light weren't in equal measure. The light kept the dark in check without destroying it, as long as the Father lived, dark side could never recover from being subdued. Being subdued isn't equal. The light side was the dark sides jailor more than equal, that was their idea of balance. The balance shattered when the dark overtly dominated the light.

Thought it should be noted that the Force only became out of balance by the time of Plagueis and Sidious - that's almost 1,000 years of the Sith existing, and the Force being in balance.

The Chosen One prophesy had been around since the early days of the republic, before the jedi took much interest in galactic affairs. Even in those days after the First Schism it was known that the force was out of balance hence the prophesy imo. As opposed the Son of Suns prophesy may have been younger but there is no set time frame for its appearance.

Also, the Son of Suns prophesy is Luke, it was written in 1975 before the Chosen One prophesy was expanded. Anakin and his killing of the Emperor was the Chosen One prophesy and Luke fulfilled the Son of Suns prophesy per G-cannon.

As to how you got the idea that the balance of the force was screwed up from Plagueis and Sidious I have no clue, I know Plagueis is responsible for fulfilling the prophesy and the two of them where the worst of a building mountain of evil that had been festering but that doesn't directly imply that he was the cause of the imbalance as they where essentially carrying on the exact same legacy as Bane, so in a sense it might have started with him

As a side note, the prophesies dealt much with eliminating the Sith legacy started primarily around the time of the Great Hyperspace War which they did indeed achieve. This in some sense could bring balance to the force as the greatest force corrupting and abusing organization in the galaxy and the greatest force for good in galaxy destroyed each other resetting things to almost even with the Good edging out the bad in true G-cannon fashion.