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Ability pruning will lead to subscribers pruning


bladech

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No, iam not talking about plot of a horror film where subscribers of this game are cutted in pieces (they already suffered here enough), iam talking that ability pruning in wow resulted in subscribers leaving the game. People just didn't like what happened to their classes and devs there made a typical mistake which many did in the past - they thought that by pruning abilities and making the game more CASUAL they will draw attention of new players who aren't playing mmo games because of how "hard" and complicated such games are. But this is a mistake. Players want more ways to play the game, more content, more feeling that content is rewarding enough, class balance, and alive end game content. Swtor always provided enough abilities for players to play ALL TYPES OF CONTENT as they wish or want to play. It is one of advantages of this game, the advantage many mmo games lacking now.

 

Players leaving this game, same as new players aren't not because of ability sets but due to: 1. lack of content, 2. lots of bugs,3. certain types of content are in DEAD state (for example, team ranked, uprisings, star fortress etc). If you think that ability quantity is the problem you just lying to yourself, it is not the reason why this game has problems. And what you are doing is just taking away one of advantages this game still has.

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Too many folks also like to pretend as though we don't have examples of how this exact thing either negatively impacted a game severely, or even outright killed it when it was tried elsewhere. Nor do they ever point us to these mythical people who are supposedly having these massive issues with understanding the game. If there are people having issues, I would love to sit down with these folks and find out what they are having issues with. Did they jump straight to 70 and then get overwhelmed from so many options at once? Could they be helped by creating better tooltips? Do they need a video or guide of some kind so they can see what they need to do in action? If folks aren't willing to ask for help then there is nothing any of us veteran players can do to help them, nor can Bioware as we're not mind readers. I would rather spend as much time as it takes with a new person who legitimately wants to learn, than I would to see the classes gutted.

 

We have 2 prime examples of how this happened in other games. I've mentioned the World of Warcraft example several times. Right after Mists they tried to do the first Great Pruning in WoD. Folks told them then it sucked, but they didn't listen. This for many was the straw that broke the camel's back and we saw many leave the game as a result. To this day they still have not recovered fully from it. This was done under the guise of helping new players learn the game and similar, much how some folks are saying should be done here and how "ability glut" supposedly exists. Yet the WoW community never named those people so veteran players could try to help them out. No one would point them out so Blizzard could help them either. It was a dumbing down of the game for the sake of dumbing it down, and it crippled many a class. It got so bad that Blizzard had to admit they made a mistake and even dubbed one of their own devs "The Unpruner." While they've restored alot of what was stolen, the game is still a long way from recovered.

 

Then we have Star Wars Galaxies where they tried the same thing. I saved the letter that the other guy posted from back in 2005 when SWG tried the exact same thing.

 

"NGE Announcement (November 2, 2005):

 

Letter to the Community

 

Greetings Star Wars Galaxies Players, Fans, and Other Denizens of the Galaxy:

 

My name is Julio Torres and I am the Producer on Star Wars Galaxies for LucasArts. We wanted you, the great members of the Galaxies community, to be the first to hear some exciting news about the current and future plans for Star Wars Galaxies!

 

Over the past year we have been working hard to respond to feedback we have gotten from players, fans, focus groups, and other research. This feedback has ultimately centered on one key area: the game does not feel like a heroic Star Wars experience. Currently, the early game has a steep learning curve and there is no clearly defined path of advancement or adventure. Many of our fans who bought the game did not see enough Star Wars style action early-on and ultimately left our world. It is our goal to change this and improve the experience for all players.

 

We are introducing a series of game enhancements to Star Wars Galaxies this month that include both significant enhancements to the live game as well as a completely redesigned experience for new players. The primary areas of focus include combat and profession and character development. The combat depicted in the Star Wars films, fiction, and canon that we have all come to know and love is fast-paced, action-packed, and visually intense. In order to stay true to the Star Wars fiction as well as to make the combat system more engaging, we have shifted the turn-based paradigm towards a much more engaging fast-action combat system where you control every move! After receiving feedback from members of the community, conducting extensive focus tests, and evaluating the combat systems of other games in the genre, we are confident this new fast-action combat truly delivers what players, fans, and gamers have come to expect from a Star Wars experience.

 

As mentioned earlier, combat is not the only area where we decided to focus our improvement efforts. We have also improved and brought more clarity to the profession and character development system..."

 

We can see in the colored sections they too tried this same thing. For those of us who have been there through these disastrous changes, we don't want to see it happen here as well.

 

The other thing that absolutely irks me is how it's assumed that all new players are too stupid to learn for themselves and will never be able to learn it. Even veterans like myself, the OP and others were new at one point and we learned. The folks today have it much easier than the first players of this game did. Back then we didn't have the fancy guides and such. We had to learn it on our own. Thankfully today the new players don't have to struggle like we did in alot of cases, unless they choose to struggle. Dividing existing abilities up doesn't create anything new, it just subtracts from what is already there.

 

Folks need to understand as well that you can lower the skill level all the way to the floor of the basement level of hell itself and there will still be people who can't do it. I'm all for helping those who need it and want to learn, but at some point folks also need to stand on their own two feet without someone holding their hand forever. That may sound elitist to some, but at some point the training wheels have got to come off if folks are to learn and improve. Simply because they can't master SWTOR over night doesn't make this a bad game anymore than not mastering something like Magic the Gathering over night doesn't make it a bad game. I don't want to see this game start to tank like WoW almost did, or like SWG actually did.

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What do you think is the correct amount of buttons for a mmo based around GCD attacks/heals, and off cooldown offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns? Is 28 abilities to many? is 24 just the right amount? Edited by Wolvel
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What do you think is the correct amount of buttons for a mmo based around GCD attacks/heals, and off cooldown offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns? Is 28 abilities to many? is 24 just the right amount?

 

Hmmm let me think.

Button 1 - light attack

Button 2 - heavy attack

Button 3 - special attack

 

See? 3 abilities is enough. Welcome to the brand new SWTOR Stories! play it on Android and IOS.

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smh ... some humans are just amazing....

 

 

And it's the same people making the same posts.

 

And they then ignore the people who come forward to disagree

 

Pot , meet your own post-history. Then, meet kettle---> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956836#post9956836

Good luck trolling your next victim. It won't be me anymore. /ignore

 

Apparently, pointing out a forum sig had expired is "grief celebrating" and disagreeing with blanket opinions is "trolling" now . :rolleyes:

 

------------

What do you think is the correct amount of buttons for a mmo based around GCD attacks/heals, and off cooldown offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns? Is 28 abilities to many? is 24 just the right amount?

 

You probably won't like my answer but , for me, the right amount is: However many the game allows me to have.

 

If it ends up going from X current amount down to '5' or whatever, then so be it. Probably won't be nearly as fun to play , but i'm not in charge of SWTOR development. Heck, i hated the NGE but still stay subbed in SWG thru that joke of a combat "enhancement" . (thankfully, they didn't mess with JTL space flight)

 

So yeah, i & many players like me will adapt eventually. In the meantime, i'm hoping the supposed "pruning" won't end up nearly as sky-is-falling awful as some people are predicting.

Edited by Nee-Elder
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What do you think is the correct amount of buttons for a mmo based around GCD attacks/heals, and off cooldown offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns? Is 28 abilities to many? is 24 just the right amount?

 

The correct amount of buttons is the amount of buttons the game can get away with without being a turn off to newer players.

 

There is no other correct answer. They make this game to make money. If they make a drastic change and it causes 80% of the old players to leave, but they then are able to maintain 20% and replace the 80% who left, and on top of that grow the game even another 5-10% or more, then they increased revenue and it was the right decision, even if the 80% who left have the most bitter sour grapes over it and lie to themselves about the game being "dead" despite there being more people even with them leaving.

 

Now, if they make a drastic change, and it only causes 10% of players to leave, but they never are able to replace that 10%, then even though they only lost 10%, it was a really BAD idea.

 

You see, most players would claim option A is the worse idea because it led to more massive player loss initially. However, cold hard reality is that BioWare is a business. some turnover on a major idea shift is to be expected. If they read the market right and are able to replace whatever players they lose and then grow the game on top of it, then that is the best possible outcome. Because in option B, they actually are now making 10% less revenue at a minimum compared to option A. And that hits production costs, payroll, etc.

 

Those are just some examples.

 

In the end, there have been businesses that have died trying to chase a non-existent market. There have been others who have risked and won, even though it cost them huge customer turnover at first.

 

The point I am trying to make is that in the end, all the hand-wringing isn't going to make one bit of difference. it's going to come down to revenue in the end, and that is not something any of us are privy to, no matter how much any of us like to pretend we know otherwise....

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The correct amount of buttons is the amount of buttons the game can get away with without being a turn off to newer players.

 

There is no other correct answer. They make this game to make money. If they make a drastic change and it causes 80% of the old players to leave, but they then are able to maintain 20% and replace the 80% who left, and on top of that grow the game even another 5-10% or more, then they increased revenue and it was the right decision, even if the 80% who left have the most bitter sour grapes over it and lie to themselves about the game being "dead" despite there being more people even with them leaving.

You keep bringing up these mythical new players having all these issues, yet you've refused to tell us who they are. You also say "the amount of buttons the game can get away with without being a turn off to newer players" is what we should go with, yet you refuse to quantify what that is. Are we talking 3 buttons? What about 5? Maybe 7? Or what about 10? Do we stop at 12, or do we go to 15?

 

Even worse, not only do you refuse to quantify it, you then state "there is no correct answer." If you really believed there was no correct answer, you wouldn't be on here spewing rhetoric about there being too many abilities. If you're going to say there are too many abilities, then you clearly have a standard in mind you believe to be the "correct answer" to make that statement, or you wouldn't be making the statement unless you're just looking to troll people. If you're not just looking to troll people, why don't you quit beating around the bush and say the number. Once you've quantified a starting point we can have real debate instead of talking in circles. So spit the number out to us if you're not afraid and aren't just trying to troll. Prove me wrong about you just wanting to troll people.

 

As for the game making money, that "80% of old players" is what made them all their money to start with. If 80% of a game's playerbase all drop out, that's 4/5 players just gone, and 4/5 of the sub money gone with them. Just to keep the numbers simple, let's assume this game has 5 million subs at $15 a month. That's $75million for just subs alone. If you scare off 80% of those subs, that's a loss of $60million per month, meaning the game has gone from making $75million a month to only $15million a month. I don't know what world you're living in, but if I was a shareholder in that company and some yahoo caused my stock in that company to devalue by 4/5, I'm demanding that person's proverbial head on a pike. That's not just an "oppsie we messed up" type of situation. That's a "fire them all and start over before we go under" situation. If you want a prime example just go look at Anthem. They drove off 90% of their playerbase, and tried to maintain with the 10% of die-hards that were left, but ended up folding because that 10% wasn't enough to maintain the game and regrow it.

 

Now, if they make a drastic change, and it only causes 10% of players to leave, but they never are able to replace that 10%, then even though they only lost 10%, it was a really BAD idea.

Wait a second, losing 80% of the playerbase is no big deal, but 10% is? Dude you need to quit going to the clubs on Nar Shadda because you're talking out of your exhaust port. World of Warcraft tried to dumb down the game and it failed, but not before seriously damaging the game. Anthem chased of 90% of their playerbase and the game actually tanked. Star Wars Galaxies dumbed down the game which led to it's ultimate doom. Economics doesn't work the way you think it does dude. Bills go on whether there are players there or not. You either pay them or turn the lights off. Expenses also don't magically drop when you chase 80% of your players off either, they stay the same.

 

You see, most players would claim option A is the worse idea because it led to more massive player loss initially. However, cold hard reality is that BioWare is a business. some turnover on a major idea shift is to be expected. If they read the market right and are able to replace whatever players they lose and then grow the game on top of it, then that is the best possible outcome. Because in option B, they actually are now making 10% less revenue at a minimum compared to option A. And that hits production costs, payroll, etc.

Dude you need to just quit while you're behind at this point. You talk about business and markets, yet you clearly have no idea how either of those things function. Your entire line of logic is also based on a perilous "IF the company holds on" after they've already lost 80% of their playerbase. That's a super huge "if" that very few shareholders are going to keep their money tied into. You've also failed to take into account that an 80% player loss isn't going to be replaced over night without some miracle event happening. Not only this but that massive of a drop so soon is going to massively undercut consumer and player confidence that something similar won't happen again and just drive away the 80% again.

 

In the end, there have been businesses that have died trying to chase a non-existent market. There have been others who have risked and won, even though it cost them huge customer turnover at first.

 

The point I am trying to make is that in the end, all the hand-wringing isn't going to make one bit of difference. it's going to come down to revenue in the end, and that is not something any of us are privy to, no matter how much any of us like to pretend we know otherwise....

This is the first thing you've said in this entire post where I actually agree with something, at least partially. You're absolutely correct that there have been businesses that died chasing non-existent markets, or even chasing the wrong market. There have also been businesses that went all in, shot the craps and hit that 7 or 11. However there are far far more that threw the dice and lost than there are those that hit the jackpot in this situation.

 

You're also right about one more thing, it's going to come down to revenue in the end. The good thing about this is that we have multiple examples to demonstrate that doing what they're trying to do right now is a terrible idea. It nearly destroyed WoW before they reversed course, with them admitting it harmed their subs. It flat out destroyed Star Wars Galaxies, and flat out destroyed Anthem when they chased their playerbase off.

 

Look I want to hope I'm wrong as much you think I am as I don't want to see this game go under anymore than anyone else does. However there has not been a single case where this ultimately worked out well for any other game that tried this. Ultimately this doesn't address the situation of why these people you mention having trouble learning their powers and abilities. You can only change a game so much and lower the skill bar so much before you destroy the original product that made you successful to start with, which is exactly what this would do.

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You keep bringing up these mythical new players having all these issues, yet you've refused to tell us who they are. You also say "the amount of buttons the game can get away with without being a turn off to newer players" is what we should go with, yet you refuse to quantify what that is. Are we talking 3 buttons? What about 5? Maybe 7? Or what about 10? Do we stop at 12, or do we go to 15?

 

He actually did mention it once in another thread. His statement was something along the lines of "8 to 12 including all abilities for a combat rotation". Honestly i'm glad he hasn't repeated it. It's ludicrous to think that this game could reduce the amount of necessary inputs to that degree, yet allow players to retain the level of control they currently have over their character and the battlefield around them.

 

If they changed the game to something action oriented like Tera or Black desert I could see that being possible. Even then 8 to 12 is a stretch.

 

The only things he's said that I can agree with is that if the dev team puts an incredible amount of thought into this it's possible that they won't completely kill the game. Oh and what's on the PTS is crap. It's possible that it could work *if and only if* they clearly define what abilities make each class unique. When it comes to ability pruning, they should be combining things that naturally go together including the effects.

 

Ex: Vengeful Slam, Sweeping Slash, (Smash for the other specs). We already have cooldown modifications for Vengeful Slam, and Sweeping Slash applies trauma or something like that. Combine the two and modify the cooldown so it can be used frequently. I like sweeping slash for applying trauma or pulling people out of stealth since it has low CD, but seeing it go doesn't fundamentally change the identity and the way the class plays. Removing guard, intercede, taunts, defensives, and mad dash, etc does.

 

The same thing could be done with Saber Throw and Vicious Throw / Hew. Make it one ability with no minimum range that deals bonus damage when 'x' condition is met or the enemy health is below a certain %. Lower the cooldown so it can be used as an opener and part of the rotation. Combine animations so point blank looks like Hew (which is epic) an long range looks like Saber Throw, or some other combination of the two.

 

They could do more, but all of this sounds more difficult than just balancing what already exists. It took them ages just to fix Warmonger. If they have issues with multiple abilities on all classes you can forget about it being repaired within a years time.

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I agree with that statement. But 60 buttons on 6 bars isn't content.

 

and who said that big quantity of abilities is a content? No one did lol. But you see it's better to have many abilities than not to have because every player will decide himself what he needs and what he doesn't need. There was a great example when someone wrote about lightning chain ability on lightning sorcerer spec. Yes lightning chain doesn't fit in rotation of a lightning sorcerer but many players using it when playing story content just because they like to see how pure lightning chain is executed from their fingers, they feel themselves as Darth Sidious. Yes, this ability fits only madness rotation but useless for lightning SO WHAT? Let people decide what they want themselves since it is always better to have something even if it's useless than not to have when it comes to MMO. Why? Because those players who would think they don't need certain abilities will just throw them away from their bar but those who willing to use these abilities will take them. Both sides are happy. And if devs will do ability pruning, first group of players i mentioned before won't see any difference but the second group will suffer since they will be deprived of abilities they want to use!

 

Not even mentioning that devs are planning to take away substential, crucial abilities which are separating different classes making them unique (such as choice between reflect and mad dash or taking force clarity away). This is even worse than taking insignificant abilities of certain specs.

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But you see it's better to have many abilities than not to have because every player will decide himself what he needs and what he doesn't need.

 

And if devs will do ability pruning, first group of players i mentioned before won't see any difference but the second group will suffer since they will be deprived of abilities they want to use!

 

Not even mentioning that devs are planning to take away substential, crucial abilities which are separating different classes making them unique (such as choice between reflect and mad dash or taking force clarity away).

 

This is even worse than taking insignificant abilities of certain specs.

 

Can't believe i haven't mentioned this yet (and, as far as i've noticed , no one else has mentioned this yet either) ....

 

What about HEALERS?!?!

 

I have a Guardian alt, but my main has always been a healer (Sage) since 2011 , never respec'd (except when the game forced me to upon 1st login after new update----see 4.0 & such) And , particularly in PVP & NiM ops (or other Level 75+ content) , every single 'heal' skill on my toolbar is useful & significant.

 

Again , we still don't know the extent of what exactly BioWare is up to with this whole LotS 7.0 update, so i'm def. NOT one of those "game is gonna die" types ( *especially since people have been claiming "SWTOR will die" since 2012 lol ) .

 

I'm just a bit skeptical and, as a healer main, i'm very very curious/confused as to how the heck BioWare is gonna handle all this. I don't have the Livestream link handy at the moment but does anyone recall whether or not BioWare mentioned the effect 7.0 might have on HEALERS specifically ?

 

p.s. i hope they "prune" god-bubble so i won't be tempted to use it in Ranked PVP anymore :(

Edited by Nee-Elder
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I agree with that statement. But 60 buttons on 6 bars isn't content.

 

What classes are you playing specifically you feel have too many abilities?

 

I play dps and tank specs. My main is a Shadow, Infiltration spec. All the primary abilities, including spec rotation, CCs and stuns, stun break, defensives, interrupt, used during PVE or PVP combat, fit on 2 bars. There are some extra that are more situational that I put on a 3rd, and it also includes including healing pack, adrenals. A 4th bar has mounts, and QoL features like Fleet pass and quick travel.

 

So, 2 bars, and half of a 3rd for actual combat abilities. The most used combat abilities are basically on 1 bar, and supplemented by others depending on what content type.

 

Most of my dps classes are this way. An exception is Arsenal Merc, which has more situational abilities like stealth scan or fusion missile, or the grenade you can throw (whatever the Imp version of sticky grenade is called). Sniper/Gunslinger specs can also take up a little more room. But if Arsenal Merc, the simplest dps spec in the game, is considered to be overwhelming to some players, there's no amount of pruning that can fix this problem.

 

Instead, the game needs an easy to understand summary of what abilities do what in a given spec. In-game guides, essentailly. This way, new players or those that get confused can reference it without having to alt tab out of the game and search for a SWTOR class guide, which they may not know how to do. A revamp of how well abilities light up in PVE might help too.

 

I agree with what someone else mentioned in this thread: the game needs to revive dead content types, and add more content like story updates, planets to explore, new PVP 8v8 modes, a GSF map more than once 4 or more years, at least 1 boss Ops that are in addition to whatever Op comes with an expansion (though I'm not sure how large the remaining Ops community is, since so many left in 4.x and 5.x). New or updated systems and their assocaited quests and stories, like when Macrobinoculars were introduced. Cosmetics and items to grind for in-game. Enjoyable new events/mini-games, like the Hutt cooking event last fall.

 

I was really looking forward to the expansion, and even the abilitiy to switch into other Force or Tech specs (though I was a little confused why development time/money went into a feature that couldn't implement what folks actually wanted, to use any Force or Tech weapon type with the current classes and specs, something we know is too expensive to ever do, since it would require so many new animations).

 

Now, I'm almost dreading what will happen to all the classes and specs that have been in the game since launch.

Edited by arunav
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I left the game 8 years ago because of stupid decisions by the devs. They removed or altered many things I enjoyed doing daily. I still miss being able to solo old flashpoints to farm unique gear styles. No, story mode isn't the same thing. I came back 2 months ago to give the game another chance. Looks like I'll be leaving again.
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Every expansion we lose more players than we gain from unpopular changes Bioware make to “improve” or “change the direction” of the game.

 

When we had plenty of players, this wasn’t a massive issue because there was a buffer there.

But now we are down to one semi full US server, one half full US server, one semi full English EU server and two half dead Language EU servers.

 

So there really isn’t a margin for error this time. Sure we will lose some players, it’s expected every expansion that we get a bump in numbers and then a few months later end up with less than before the expansion.

 

In the past, BioWare have been really arrogant towards players feed back and outright ignored it and that’s why we’ve got an on going reduction in player numbers. While other games like FFXIV are always gaining more players each expansion because they listen to their community and are willing to change direction.

 

I’m hoping that BioWare have realised they have no buffer this time to ignore player feedback to just go ahead with unpopular ideas. If they do, I have grave fears the game won’t recover from another mass exodus.

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Maybe they'll install a "magic win" button to counter everything else ... Then .. whoever mashes that first well ... wins ?

 

Sorry for the sarcasm. But a lot of this sort of sounds like it (from a certain stand point of view).

 

Reducing the number of buttons to mash is one thing .. but preventing breaking something like stun so that a player just has to sit there and take crap with no way to defend??

 

I can tell you where that leads in two seconds ...

 

(notices that there is no one around to listen)

 

And I'm still baffled at the lack of new stuff that many folks would welcome with open arms !!

 

(It must be the new math .. two negatives make it positive ... right ?? )

:D

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No, iam not talking about plot of a horror film where subscribers of this game are cutted in pieces (they already suffered here enough), iam talking that ability pruning in wow resulted in subscribers leaving the game. People just didn't like what happened to their classes and devs there made a typical mistake which many did in the past - they thought that by pruning abilities and making the game more CASUAL they will draw attention of new players who aren't playing mmo games because of how "hard" and complicated such games are. But this is a mistake. Players want more ways to play the game, more content, more feeling that content is rewarding enough, class balance, and alive end game content. Swtor always provided enough abilities for players to play ALL TYPES OF CONTENT as they wish or want to play. It is one of advantages of this game, the advantage many mmo games lacking now.

 

Players leaving this game, same as new players aren't not because of ability sets but due to: 1. lack of content, 2. lots of bugs,3. certain types of content are in DEAD state (for example, team ranked, uprisings, star fortress etc). If you think that ability quantity is the problem you just lying to yourself, it is not the reason why this game has problems. And what you are doing is just taking away one of advantages this game still has.

 

i dont think people will un sub just because of ability pruning , it is people need to adapt because frankly there are too many bloated abilities and need to be tone down

 

my suggestion is just combining some abilities and some to passive or just completely remove it

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Every expansion we lose more players than we gain from unpopular changes Bioware make to “improve” or “change the direction” of the game.

 

When we had plenty of players, this wasn’t a massive issue because there was a buffer there.

But now we are down to one semi full US server, one half full US server, one semi full English EU server and two half dead Language EU servers.

 

Lets take one of the dead EU language servers and make it our Classic Server :D

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i dont think people will un sub just because of ability pruning , it is people need to adapt because frankly there are too many bloated abilities and need to be tone down

 

my suggestion is just combining some abilities and some to passive or just completely remove it

 

Just like people werent gonna unsub because of command, lack of raids, etc, spoiler alert: they did.

I was in a day one raiding guild that went from 5 active teams all doing prog to dead in less than 6 months, and I know of about a few more like that in my server. They werent small guilds either.

 

Funny some posters here seem bent on ability bloat but frankly, the people that might find too many abilities a thing aren't playing the content that requires more than 10 abilities, they can just remove what they don't want, why is that so hard to grasp?

The people that don't want can remove abilites from their bars, the people that want them won't be able to add them in the future if this goes live

My suggestion is don't touch abilities, tweak set bonuses and tacticals (some of them are frankly broken), the whole decoupling of story from gameplay class plus the new content will be enough to keep the game fresh and it will save them time trying to not **** over the balance for the whole game.

Edited by TevosisHot
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Just like people werent gonna unsub because of command, lack of raids, etc, spoiler alert: they did.

I was in a day one raiding guild that went from 5 active teams all doing prog to dead in less than 6 months, and I know of about a few more like that in my server. They werent small guilds either.

 

Funny some posters here seem bent on ability bloat but frankly, the people that might find too many abilities a thing aren't playing the content that requires more than 10 abilities, they can just remove what they don't want, why is that so hard to grasp?

The people that don't want can remove abilites from their bars, the people that want them won't be able to add them in the future if this goes live

My suggestion is don't touch abilities, tweak set bonuses and tacticals (some of them are frankly broken), the whole decoupling of story from gameplay class plus the new content will be enough to keep the game fresh and it will save them time trying to not **** over the balance for the whole game.

 

That's not even an argument. It's like telling me to take off my gear if I think the content is too easy.

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That's not even an argument. It's like telling me to take off my gear if I think the content is too easy.

Have you actually logged into the pts and tested **** or are just here to be contrarian without even making an argument yourself? You keep spewing this "ability bloat" stuff matter-of-factly but the majority of people in forums reddit and in-game think the number of abilities is fine and they haven't even added that many since release.

Your whole argument is "my opinion is the one that matters and **** everyone else" so don't tell others about arguments cos you yourself don't have one.

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A big part of PvP is the play/counter-play of getting people to burn their cooldowns at the wrong time. Like soft stunning a jugg when he hits enraged defense, or stunning a sorc or merc when they hit force speed/ hydraulic overrides. How that could play out, and still be as fun, with half the buttons is a mystery that Bioware claims it can solve, but given what we see on the PTS there's no reason to believe them.

 

Action mmos, like ESO/Neverwinter can get away with a 6-12 button setup, because they have a whole additional element of gameplay in attacking, blocking, dodging, completely separated from those 6-12 abilities. It's a design choice bases around using an xbox controller, and those games were built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

I think someday there will be a Star Wars action based MMO, but SWTOR aint it. It's better off as an "old school" wow clone, not a "retail" WoW clone. WoW devs, who blazed this trail Bioware seems intent on following, even admit ability pruning has hurt their game. https://massivelyop.com/2019/06/22/blizzard-on-world-of-warcraft-class-pruning-weve-gone-too-far/

 

A better idea would be to have Bioware make a mobile game that ties into SWTOR. Something that ties into your characters, or legacy, cosmetically or via a system that doesn't effect SWTOR game balance. Make it addictive, make the cash shop with it predatory. Make it pay to win. Make it shallow and flashy, and easy. Load it all up with the typical EA sleeze. Then they can log into SWTOR and reap the "benefits", and then get tricked into actually playing, and maybe enjoying SWTOR.

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Have you actually logged into the pts and tested **** or are just here to be contrarian without even making an argument yourself? You keep spewing this "ability bloat" stuff matter-of-factly but the majority of people in forums reddit and in-game think the number of abilities is fine and they haven't even added that many since release.

Your whole argument is "my opinion is the one that matters and **** everyone else" so don't tell others about arguments cos you yourself don't have one.

 

Yes I have -- Vigi only tho. I downloaded the huge PTS copy because I was all hyped, only to find out in game that I'm not even level 80 yet :o Nor was there any utilities or anything. Didnt the guardian feel incredibly incomplete to you?

 

TBH, I think the devs rushed the PTS out before they had much for us to even test (they wanted to make the deadline Musco mentioned in the livestream). Perhaps the test is to see how we would react to ability pruning lol

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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Action mmos, like ESO/Neverwinter can get away with a 6-12 button setup, because they have a whole additional element of gameplay in attacking, blocking, dodging, completely separated from those 6-12 abilities. It's a design choice bases around using an xbox controller, and those games were built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

Yes! Exactly! These games were designed that way. What BioWare wants to do is to frankenstein different parts from other successfull MMOs into SWTOR, but SWTOR has a target-based combat. Players don't have anything except positioning and abilities. No dodging, aiming or blocking, only quickbars with skills.

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