Jump to content

An attempt of dialogue and a warning


Labranth

Recommended Posts

If you cut the essential abilities from classes, I guarantee you will cut a significant percentage of existing player base as well. This is not an update, it’s a downgrade in all possible variations to PvE and PvP. By doing this you will not attract new players, you will only alienate the veterans and the game will eventually die. You advertised this new update as more variable gameplay for classes and more class story possibilities with various Base Class + Advanced Class combinations. What you have shown in PTS is just straight up trimming down of ESSENTIAL Guardian abilities which are necessary and can not be erased/limited in any way, and it will be absolutely detrimental for the game and for your "business model" per se if you will actually proceed with this changes on live servers. Listen to our feedback while it’s still not too late, because we know these characters inside and out, we didn’t have anything to do except for mastering them all these 10 years, so don’t take away the only thing that keeps veterans subbed, which is variability in skills.

What you try to do is straight up commercial suicide and no you won’t be a second WoW or ESO, SWTOR will simply cease to function.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I would go one step further and say that it's not just about the Guardian like some people thing, nor is it just folks "not wanting to learn rotations again" or similar bogus arguments. They asked for feedback and they're getting it. They made the statements that this is a preview of what's to come, meaning they have more of this planned at this juncture. It's a safe inference as to what it will do to the other classes, based on information given to us by Bioware themselves and isn't just people overreacting like some others want to claim it is.

 

If I have 10 abilities, they steal 5 of them from me, then give 2 of them back to me as ability "choices" that's not a choice and it's not new. I'm also still missing 3 abilities. It's the equivalent of stealing my wallet with $100 and my social security card inside, offering to give me back my social security card or $10, then pretending they're doing me a favor. Either i'm out my wallet along with $90 and my social security card, or i'm out $100 and my wallet. Either way I'm worse off. The Guardian is just the first we've seen of this "preview" stuff, and I shudder to think what they've done to the other classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you cut the essential abilities from classes, I guarantee you will cut a significant percentage of existing player base as well. This is not an update, it’s a downgrade in all possible variations to PvE and PvP. By doing this you will not attract new players, you will only alienate the veterans and the game will eventually die. You advertised this new update as more variable gameplay for classes and more class story possibilities with various Base Class + Advanced Class combinations. What you have shown in PTS is just straight up trimming down of ESSENTIAL Guardian abilities which are necessary and can not be erased/limited in any way, and it will be absolutely detrimental for the game and for your "business model" per se if you will actually proceed with this changes on live servers. Listen to our feedback while it’s still not too late, because we know these characters inside and out, we didn’t have anything to do except for mastering them all these 10 years, so don’t take away the only thing that keeps veterans subbed, which is variability in skills.

What you try to do is straight up commercial suicide and no you won’t be a second WoW or ESO, SWTOR will simply cease to function.

 

Oh stop flailing.

 

The current system has too many abilites and the glut is daunting for new players.

 

Besides the "complexity" of the current system is nothing more than filling up 4-5 toolbars with some "rotation' someone posted online and then pushing the buttons in order while moving. There is nothing so super sacred or complex about that - just CUMBERSOME.

 

The key here of course is delivery - and if people think BioWare can't deliver, well, I won't argue because they are the KINGS of overpromising and under-delivering.

 

But if they can make each loadout (NOT ADVANCED CLASS - LOAD OUT) feel like a unique and viable play style, even with 1/3 of the abilities, then frankly THAT is a winner. After all, remember we are promised loadout swapping, so no ability is going to be truly gone.

 

The keys here are this:

 

  • Will Bioware actually put in the work to make each loadout feel unique?
  • Will they rebalance the abilities in each loadout to make sure all loadouts are effective in whatever it is they are designed to do for endgame?

 

If they do those 2 things, the game will be fine, despite your flouncing.

 

If they decide to take the lazy road and make it so that every advanced class is what's different, and the "loadouts" are the same other than 1-2 token different abilities (what's on PTS now with Jedi Guardian), then yes, this will be a flaming disaster and frankly utterly pointless since it will still be too similar to what we have now.

 

But they have the framework to do this thing for real there. So lets see if they have the work ethic and the foresight to ignore the flouncers and take this game where it really needs to go to modernize it for 2021....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh stop flailing.

 

The current system has too many abilites and the glut is daunting for new players.

 

Besides the "complexity" of the current system is nothing more than filling up 4-5 toolbars with some "rotation' someone posted online and then pushing the buttons in order while moving. There is nothing so super sacred or complex about that - just CUMBERSOME.

 

The key here of course is delivery - and if people think BioWare can't deliver, well, I won't argue because they are the KINGS of overpromising and under-delivering.

 

But if they can make each loadout (NOT ADVANCED CLASS - LOAD OUT) feel like a unique and viable play style, even with 1/3 of the abilities, then frankly THAT is a winner. After all, remember we are promised loadout swapping, so no ability is going to be truly gone.

 

The keys here are this:

 

  • Will Bioware actually put in the work to make each loadout feel unique?
  • Will they rebalance the abilities in each loadout to make sure all loadouts are effective in whatever it is they are designed to do for endgame?

 

If they do those 2 things, the game will be fine, despite your flouncing.

 

If they decide to take the lazy road and make it so that every advanced class is what's different, and the "loadouts" are the same other than 1-2 token different abilities (what's on PTS now with Jedi Guardian), then yes, this will be a flaming disaster and frankly utterly pointless since it will still be too similar to what we have now.

 

But they have the framework to do this thing for real there. So lets see if they have the work ethic and the foresight to ignore the flouncers and take this game where it really needs to go to modernize it for 2021....

 

Well said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh stop flailing.

 

The current system has too many abilites and the glut is daunting for new players.

 

Besides the "complexity" of the current system is nothing more than filling up 4-5 toolbars with some "rotation' someone posted online and then pushing the buttons in order while moving. There is nothing so super sacred or complex about that - just CUMBERSOME.

 

The key here of course is delivery - and if people think BioWare can't deliver, well, I won't argue because they are the KINGS of overpromising and under-delivering.

 

But if they can make each loadout (NOT ADVANCED CLASS - LOAD OUT) feel like a unique and viable play style, even with 1/3 of the abilities, then frankly THAT is a winner. After all, remember we are promised loadout swapping, so no ability is going to be truly gone.

 

The keys here are this:

 

  • Will Bioware actually put in the work to make each loadout feel unique?
  • Will they rebalance the abilities in each loadout to make sure all loadouts are effective in whatever it is they are designed to do for endgame?

 

If they do those 2 things, the game will be fine, despite your flouncing.

 

If they decide to take the lazy road and make it so that every advanced class is what's different, and the "loadouts" are the same other than 1-2 token different abilities (what's on PTS now with Jedi Guardian), then yes, this will be a flaming disaster and frankly utterly pointless since it will still be too similar to what we have now.

 

But they have the framework to do this thing for real there. So lets see if they have the work ethic and the foresight to ignore the flouncers and take this game where it really needs to go to modernize it for 2021....

 

Current rotations are not that complicated, furthermore I dont care about dps rotation changes in 7.0. What I care about is how the class moves and functions in combat how it parses on dummy is of 0 consequence to me. They have removed intercede, aoe taunt, and you get ONE (saber reflect/mad dash/endure pain). If you want to remove garbage dps abilites remove saber strike/slash/blade barrage/force clarity/riposte. And done thats 5 things that noone gives a damn about. And the class still feels like guardian you want the modernize the game but making the class slower and feel clunkier doesn't make that happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Current rotations are not that complicated, furthermore I dont care about dps rotation changes in 7.0. What I care about is how the class moves and functions in combat how it parses on dummy is of 0 consequence to me. They have removed intercede, aoe taunt, and you get ONE (saber reflect/mad dash/endure pain). If you want to remove garbage dps abilites remove saber strike/slash/blade barrage/force clarity/riposte. And done thats 5 things that noone gives a damn about. And the class still feels like guardian you want the modernize the game but making the class slower and feel clunkier doesn't make that happen.

 

What you are talking about though are balancing issues. If they can make those fewer abilities more worthwhile and balance them to compensate for the loss, then it should be all good.

 

That said, I agree they really screwed up this version of PTS with poor management of expectations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh stop flailing.

 

The current system has too many abilites and the glut is daunting for new players.

 

Besides the "complexity" of the current system is nothing more than filling up 4-5 toolbars with some "rotation' someone posted online and then pushing the buttons in order while moving. There is nothing so super sacred or complex about that - just CUMBERSOME.

 

The key here of course is delivery - and if people think BioWare can't deliver, well, I won't argue because they are the KINGS of overpromising and under-delivering.

 

But if they can make each loadout (NOT ADVANCED CLASS - LOAD OUT) feel like a unique and viable play style, even with 1/3 of the abilities, then frankly THAT is a winner. After all, remember we are promised loadout swapping, so no ability is going to be truly gone.

 

The keys here are this:

 

  • Will Bioware actually put in the work to make each loadout feel unique?
  • Will they rebalance the abilities in each loadout to make sure all loadouts are effective in whatever it is they are designed to do for endgame?

 

If they do those 2 things, the game will be fine, despite your flouncing.

 

If they decide to take the lazy road and make it so that every advanced class is what's different, and the "loadouts" are the same other than 1-2 token different abilities (what's on PTS now with Jedi Guardian), then yes, this will be a flaming disaster and frankly utterly pointless since it will still be too similar to what we have now.

 

But they have the framework to do this thing for real there. So lets see if they have the work ethic and the foresight to ignore the flouncers and take this game where it really needs to go to modernize it for 2021....

 

Glut according to who? Aside from you and maybe 2 others I've not seen anyone complaining about ability glut anywhere save for here. In today's day and age they can watch a video, look at a guide, or dare I say it, ask for help in chat from someone. Heaven forbid someone actually have to learn the game they're expecting to play instead of being experts in a day where the game plays itself. If folks wanted a 5 ability game they can go play Diablo or some other game. For that matter folks can grab a mouse with number buttons on the side and press the abilities in order. New players are only as helpless as they choose to be. If they're struggling but don't ask for help or look for help, they'll never get it.

 

If after they've asked for help, gotten said help, tried a gaming mouse, and all the other options and are still unable to grasp it, then perhaps this game isn't for them. Also as fast as people can get to max level in this game today, they're going to have to learn how to handle their toon sooner or later. We can lower the skill bar all the way to the basement level of hell itself and there will still be people who can't do it.

 

As far as feeling unique goes, certain abilities are iconic to certain classes, such as Saber Throw to Guardians/Juggs as one example. Stealing that ability and other abilities I've had baseline since launch and offering to give one of them back to me is NOT a new development, but an unnecessary dumbing down of the game. Bottom line is I shouldn't have to put up with half my toolkit getting stolen from me, then having to pick which ability I want back. It's akin to someone stealing everything in my house then offering to bring half of it back, and acting like they've done a favor.

 

If you consider pushing the buttons of a rotation cumbersome, I suppose you want the boss to stick his head to your lightsaber as well? Perhaps start off with a 30% debuff to all stats? Give you an instant "I win" button. Or perhaps you would prefer them to just mail the gear to you at this point and call it a day?

 

As for "no ability is truly gone" if I have abilities 1 2 3 4 5 as baseline abilities, but now I can only have my choice of 3 out of the 5 abilities, then no matter how you slice it, 2 of those abilities are in fact gone and inaccessible to me. You can try to sugarcoat it all you want but it's a straight out nerf. Doesn't matter if it's part of a different loadout or not, it's still stealing my toolkit then trying to sell it back to me essentially. Their own statement indicates this was a preview of things to come if the current course holds. If you choose to ignore their statements and pretend it's something it's not, then that's you being willfully ignorant. Then again you'll probably just say "oh you're overreacting" or "you're just projecting" like your type has done elsewhere. You'll never acknowledge it's a legitimate nerf, but you'll just keep white knighting until the game shuts down. There is no war in Ba Sing Se I say. It's already a flaming disaster, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

 

Nevermind that people have already experienced this sort of stuff in WoW and other games and saw it fail horribly. Nevermind those of us who have been here since closed beta and seen every patch of this game. What could we possibly know compared to you it seems. Suggesting we wait around forever is like waiting until your house burns down to call the fire department, all while saying "nah let's wait and see what happens. we don't know if the house is really on fire yet."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glut according to who? Aside from you and maybe 2 others I've not seen anyone complaining about ability glut anywhere save for here. In today's day and age they can watch a video, look at a guide, or dare I say it, ask for help in chat from someone. Heaven forbid someone actually have to learn the game they're expecting to play instead of being experts in a day where the game plays itself. If folks wanted a 5 ability game they can go play Diablo or some other game. For that matter folks can grab a mouse with number buttons on the side and press the abilities in order. New players are only as helpless as they choose to be. If they're struggling but don't ask for help or look for help, they'll never get it.

 

If after they've asked for help, gotten said help, tried a gaming mouse, and all the other options and are still unable to grasp it, then perhaps this game isn't for them. Also as fast as people can get to max level in this game today, they're going to have to learn how to handle their toon sooner or later. We can lower the skill bar all the way to the basement level of hell itself and there will still be people who can't do it.

 

As far as feeling unique goes, certain abilities are iconic to certain classes, such as Saber Throw to Guardians/Juggs as one example. Stealing that ability and other abilities I've had baseline since launch and offering to give one of them back to me is NOT a new development, but an unnecessary dumbing down of the game. Bottom line is I shouldn't have to put up with half my toolkit getting stolen from me, then having to pick which ability I want back. It's akin to someone stealing everything in my house then offering to bring half of it back, and acting like they've done a favor.

 

If you consider pushing the buttons of a rotation cumbersome, I suppose you want the boss to stick his head to your lightsaber as well? Perhaps start off with a 30% debuff to all stats? Give you an instant "I win" button. Or perhaps you would prefer them to just mail the gear to you at this point and call it a day?

 

As for "no ability is truly gone" if I have abilities 1 2 3 4 5 as baseline abilities, but now I can only have my choice of 3 out of the 5 abilities, then no matter how you slice it, 2 of those abilities are in fact gone and inaccessible to me. You can try to sugarcoat it all you want but it's a straight out nerf. Doesn't matter if it's part of a different loadout or not, it's still stealing my toolkit then trying to sell it back to me essentially. Their own statement indicates this was a preview of things to come if the current course holds. If you choose to ignore their statements and pretend it's something it's not, then that's you being willfully ignorant. Then again you'll probably just say "oh you're overreacting" or "you're just projecting" like your type has done elsewhere. You'll never acknowledge it's a legitimate nerf, but you'll just keep white knighting until the game shuts down. There is no war in Ba Sing Se I say. It's already a flaming disaster, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

 

Nevermind that people have already experienced this sort of stuff in WoW and other games and saw it fail horribly. Nevermind those of us who have been here since closed beta and seen every patch of this game. What could we possibly know compared to you it seems. Suggesting we wait around forever is like waiting until your house burns down to call the fire department, all while saying "nah let's wait and see what happens. we don't know if the house is really on fire yet."

 

A lot of us left. And a lot of us have played this game longer than you and seen what people complained about over the years. I myself played this game for 8 years straight before my recent almost 2 year break.

 

Ability Glut is real. You just deny it because it destroys your argument, so you want to pretend it doesn't exist or it is minor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Level 50 dps Guardians started the game with ~25 abilities they could/should keybind. Since launch we've gotten ~4 new abilities to bind. But now, suddenly 10 years later at 80th level, it looks a lot like my dps guardian is going to have less functionality than my level 50 guardian had when the game started. The level 75 I tested on the PTS definitely does. I know that some people think since he's getting stealth and barrier and heals and force pull and resilience that I should be happy since no one will be able to beat my character in duels, but I think that those people are playing semantics games, not the swtor that we're all getting a few months from now. If I want to play a character with different abilities I can switch them in my current loadout/login screen (that comes with spec chosen, utilities set, keybinds set, gear arranged, multiple outfits available, etc and no tech/force user limitation). Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of styles and loadouts Charles mentioned, I like the idea that I'll be able to use the same character name, but it absolutely doesn't mean anyone's getting anything they couldn't have in the current game with a little effort. Hopefully we'll all have something to celebrate during this year's holidays, this pill is going to taste very bitter. I don't know if swtor's going to survive this or not, I've no idea, but I can almost guarantee the arbitrary ability purge is going to do nothing good for it in the long run. Edited by Savej
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh stop flailing.

 

The current system has too many abilites and the glut is daunting for new players.

 

Besides the "complexity" of the current system is nothing more than filling up 4-5 toolbars with some "rotation' someone posted online and then pushing the buttons in order while moving. There is nothing so super sacred or complex about that - just CUMBERSOME.

 

The key here of course is delivery - and if people think BioWare can't deliver, well, I won't argue because they are the KINGS of overpromising and under-delivering.

 

But if they can make each loadout (NOT ADVANCED CLASS - LOAD OUT) feel like a unique and viable play style, even with 1/3 of the abilities, then frankly THAT is a winner. After all, remember we are promised loadout swapping, so no ability is going to be truly gone.

 

The keys here are this:

 

  • Will Bioware actually put in the work to make each loadout feel unique?
  • Will they rebalance the abilities in each loadout to make sure all loadouts are effective in whatever it is they are designed to do for endgame?

 

If they do those 2 things, the game will be fine, despite your flouncing.

 

If they decide to take the lazy road and make it so that every advanced class is what's different, and the "loadouts" are the same other than 1-2 token different abilities (what's on PTS now with Jedi Guardian), then yes, this will be a flaming disaster and frankly utterly pointless since it will still be too similar to what we have now.

 

But they have the framework to do this thing for real there. So lets see if they have the work ethic and the foresight to ignore the flouncers and take this game where it really needs to go to modernize it for 2021....

 

I'm not "flailing", I'm simply stating the facts based on the data from PTS and forums. I don't know what cumbersome one can find in 30-something abilities, considering that there are things such as keypads, software for macroses and other tools which eases managing of multiple abilities significantly, let alone simply remembering them.

The product they presented on PTS really looks like trolling at the moment, because it is so raw, so underdeveloped and simply inadequate, that you can but wonder why put something this broken on PTS in the first place.

I sincerely hope that they will listen to the feedback and correct their course of action, or that this is simply the first, unfinished stage of new combat system. Because if this is not the case, we're up for a big disappointment.

Edited by Labranth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of us left. And a lot of us have played this game longer than you and seen what people complained about over the years. I myself played this game for 8 years straight before my recent almost 2 year break.

 

Ability Glut is real. You just deny it because it destroys your argument, so you want to pretend it doesn't exist or it is minor.

Dude, I've been playing this game since closed beta and can happily post a photo of any of my toons with the founder title turned on to prove it. So no, you have not played longer than I have, not by a long shot. I may have taken the odd week or two due to real life concerns, but I never left and have been here since the start. So if you really want to go there, and as much as I hate to say this, what is your 8 years to my 10?

 

Every ability gets used on all of my toons, some more than others, but they get used. I've seen you post several times now about how there is ability bloat, yet you never go into detail about what abilities are supposedly bloat abilities, why folks should want them gone, or anything. You give nothing of substance where as I've given alternatives to what's going on and how to improve it.

 

Get it through your head, you are not the sole defining authority on what is a good ability and what isn't. You are not the sole defining authority on what is bloat and what isn't. I may not use abilities like Awe that often, but that doesn't make it a bad power, or that the guy standing next to me on the fleet should be denied the use of said ability just because I don't use it. That's like saying "well I don't drive my car that much as I prefer to take the bus, so no one should drive cars." Who the heck are you to say myself or anyone else should be denied the use of an ability we've had since launch because you came in long after the fact and decided you didn't like it? You're entitled to your opinions like everyone else, but you don't get to dictate to me or anyone else simply because of your opinion.

 

You can make up whatever excuse to justify this abomination on the PTS you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it will negatively impact the game as a whole. We've seen examples of this elsewhere, and previously where bad changes harmed the game, such as the 5.0 changes that were later fixed. As the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." You've yet to demonstrate what is broken about any of these abilities other than you not liking them. If you have alternative solutions that don't destroy the uniqueness of each class, then by all means lets hear them. Otherwise the more you speak, the more you continue to prove my points I've made that you have no legitimate rebuttals to anything myself or anyone has raised. You think we're wrong, then explain why you think we're wrong. Simply saying "you're just in denial" is not a valid argument and is an emotional appeal to avoid presenting an actual rebuttal.

Edited by captainbladejk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will repeat the question, glut according to who? Do these people play ranked PvP and NiM operations? Do they utilize their class's potential to the very best they could? If they can't handle managing abilities, doesn't mean all players can't. Weak argument.

I stopped listing them. There were far more.

 

Bigger point, the % of players playing ranked PvP and NiM represents a far smaller percentage (that's why those players are called elites) than the largess of casuals and other players.

 

Consider for a moment that Bioware targeting that larger audience is entirely rational.

 

Despite no one on these forums having direct access to the bean counters, I'm sure quick math will show those few elites aren't the super-majority of CM purchases and subscriptions.

 

Before the end of the friend referral program, I was earning / burning 4000 to 8000 cartel coins a month on cartel swag, and I burned over 80,000 cartel coins day one/day two of Galactic Seasons paying for the whole thing at once. Those are numbers that Bioware is more likely to pay attention to than how many Nim players are screaming about the changes, people who aren't sitting there burning tons of cartel coins to play space barbies and doll house, and my subscription started in 2013 has been uninterrupted since October of 2014, and I've four pref accounts on top of that (read: more cartel coin swag) for a total of over 190 toons. I'm a casual.

 

Attending to one's biggest base of supporters isn't the lamest thing a for-profit corporation can do.

Edited by xordevoreaux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't say I understand I can understand complaints about ability bloat or glut, it's not like you have to use all your ablities when you're just doing class story.

 

If it get's to confusing just put some, that seem to do decent dmg on your quickbar and forget about the rest.

 

I leveled gunslingers just using sweeping gunfire pretty much :)

 

Thing is for doing HM and NIM ops a lot of those abilities are not bloat or glut or whatever, but they pretty much essential, even if they are not part of the main rotation.

So I personally rather have an abiltiy that maybe isn't used that often, but it's there when I need it and potentially saves me from dying.

 

What I also don't get is the whole story players vs raiders vs pvpers and so on. Think the game should be enjoyable for everyone, no matter what your prefered style of play is.

 

I'm personally not against some kind of pruning when it makes sense, but they way it is on the pts now, just seems too much.

Edited by Stellalunacat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd definitely be one of the people calling for an abilty cull. Coming back to SWTOR after a few years away, it's really striking just how convoluted the rotations are compared to the smoother, more intuitive gameplay of say FFXIV or WoW.

 

And it's not like filling 4 bars with keybinds makes the game more complex. Most of the classes appear to just use very strict rotations with little in the way of reactive decision making to separate the great from the good. It's more just cumbersome and off-putting than challenging. And the irritation from it is one of the main reasons that I'd rather raid at a high level in WoW or even FFXIV than I would SWTOR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will repeat the question, glut according to who? Do these people play ranked PvP and NiM operations? Do they utilize their class's potential to the very best they could? If they can't handle managing abilities, doesn't mean all players can't. Weak argument.

 

Yeah, the percentage of players playing ranked and NiM ops is so tiny as to basically make it inconsequential in the long run. According to starparse, we are currently at roughly 250 NiM ops done per week across all servers. If all those people quit the game right now (and they won't, because sunk cost fallacy is a thing), you would barely notice.

 

And frankly, the ranked PvP is filled with arseholes that will tell you to kill yourself for even slightly suboptimal play, and as such, they can all go burn themselves in hell and the game will be better for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you cut the essential abilities from classes, I guarantee you will cut a significant percentage of existing player base as well. This is not an update, it’s a downgrade in all possible variations to PvE and PvP. By doing this you will not attract new players, you will only alienate the veterans and the game will eventually die. You advertised this new update as more variable gameplay for classes and more class story possibilities with various Base Class + Advanced Class combinations. What you have shown in PTS is just straight up trimming down of ESSENTIAL Guardian abilities which are necessary and can not be erased/limited in any way, and it will be absolutely detrimental for the game and for your "business model" per se if you will actually proceed with this changes on live servers. Listen to our feedback while it’s still not too late, because we know these characters inside and out, we didn’t have anything to do except for mastering them all these 10 years, so don’t take away the only thing that keeps veterans subbed, which is variability in skills.

What you try to do is straight up commercial suicide and no you won’t be a second WoW or ESO, SWTOR will simply cease to function.

 

When ability pruning was made in wow, many players were disagree and left, and i was one of them. We just didn't like that they turned our classes into tetris mode to make it easy even for most dumb casuals. HOWEVER, at least in wow you have many unique classes and specs, new classes each expansion, tonnes of interesting content. And what does swtor have? No new classes since start of the game, low amount of new content, bugs....why would i continue to play swtor with ability prunning if i can play wow with same idiotic ability pruning but with many unique classes and tonnes of new content? Look when i play dot sin now i see that it's almost the same as dot sorcerer, dot sniper is very simmilar to dot operative. And ability pruning isn't even out yet :confused: i can't even imagine what we will have when ability pruning happens, i guess sentinel and guardian will be almost the same, same as assassin and sorc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will repeat the question, glut according to who? Do these people play ranked PvP and NiM operations? Do they utilize their class's potential to the very best they could? If they can't handle managing abilities, doesn't mean all players can't. Weak argument.

 

I agree, who are these people? Never saw them in ranked and NiM ops even though i play both. If devs listen to players who played only story content and left the game 1-2 years ago without playing ranked and NiM seriousely then we have no hope

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

People have been complaining about "too many abilities" since day 1 of this game. But of the threads you listed many are very old and every one I skimmed has far more people disagreeing with the poster and offering advice than agreeing. Why are we focusing on new players more than keeping current ones happy -now-? KotFE had a very simple "tutorial" interface for new players to play with, the gameplay was ludicrously easy, then they left.

 

I'd definitely be one of the people calling for an abilty cull. Coming back to SWTOR after a few years away, it's really striking just how convoluted the rotations are compared to the smoother, more intuitive gameplay of say FFXIV or WoW.

 

And it's not like filling 4 bars with keybinds makes the game more complex. Most of the classes appear to just use very strict rotations with little in the way of reactive decision making to separate the great from the good. It's more just cumbersome and off-putting than challenging. And the irritation from it is one of the main reasons that I'd rather raid at a high level in WoW or even FFXIV than I would SWTOR.

 

My level 60 arms warrior in Wow has over 25 keybinds. It's very similar to my guardian in many ways, definitely not simpler or smoother.

 

With my guardian I rarely follow a "rotation" in pvp (regs) unless my target(s) is(are) standing still and not doing anything and my character isn't being cc'd or about to be cc'd (those moments are rare). Even in pve running flashpoints my dps rotations are more situational and dependent on what's attacking my guardian, the number of enemies and whether my character is carrying weaker pcs or not. There is currently a lot of flexibility with my guardian's rotation, I can close to enemies with charge or blade blitz, work up energy/focus with charge, saber throw, combat focus, sundering strike or strike (or force push + charge) , for escaping I can use guardian leap or blade blitz - I use all dependent on the situation and what's off cd. I would say there's a fair amount of not overwhelming complexity. Obviously it takes time to get used to it, that's what the leveling process is for. MMOs aren't supposed to be for people to play a game for 1 weekend and have anything mastered. They're supposed to be for people to play awhile while still feeling they can improve the way they play.

 

My favorite MMO combat system is blade and soul's, that uses fewer keys but abilities tied to keypresses change depending on what you did before; it's about combos. It's almost magical the way a few correctly executed moves opens up lots of options. There's nothing swtor could do to switch to that without completely rethinking its classes. I would love it if they did. I wish they planned ahead better when they built this game instead of blindly copying Wow (and WAR). But what's done is done. Arbitrarily removing buttons does not make anything about this game better or more interesting, it just makes it easier for new players to come in and experienced ones to get bored and go out.

Edited by Savej
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the percentage of players playing ranked and NiM ops is so tiny as to basically make it inconsequential in the long run. According to starparse, we are currently at roughly 250 NiM ops done per week across all servers. If all those people quit the game right now (and they won't, because sunk cost fallacy is a thing), you would barely notice.

 

And frankly, the ranked PvP is filled with arseholes that will tell you to kill yourself for even slightly suboptimal play, and as such, they can all go burn themselves in hell and the game will be better for it.

 

You are very wrong about this. You see, a lot of us doing progression raiding also run a lot of other stuff for the rest of the SWTOR community. Here's a non-exhaustive list, not arranged in any order of priority:

 

- Helping more casual players get through SM's (yes, Gods and Dxun SM runs still fail because casuals quit at the battery mechanic and Izax if things go badly, and it's not rare that a seasoned player will jump in and help clear it). This includes Monolith SM, which casual pug groups occassionally struggle with.

- Running more difficult world bosses such as the Nightmare Pilgrim.

- Running more than a few guilds who aren't just stacked with NiM players.

-- Helping beginners with GSF and PVP (I cannot speak that much for PVP myself tho...). This mostly occurs inside guilds from what I've seen.

- Helping with HM's that are reasonably puggable when ppl "LF" on the fleet for them.

- Helping newly setup progression teams clear content either by helping to lead a bit or back-filling.

- Helping people with MM flashpoints, especially the more difficult ones.

- And much more.

 

In addition to this, I know of more than a few raiders who played this back before I came to this game, who would help literally hundreds of players gear up through operations, back when that was more of a thing.

 

You fail to realize that the "small group of NiM players" are what makes this game go round in almost all aspects of team play except the easiest SM and HM ops, the veteran mode flashpoints and some of the master mode flashpoints - especially when things have gone wrong.

 

While it's true that a fairly small % of NiM players are a bit on the toxic side, most of them are - especially when not busy - very helpful in my experience (I'm sort of a junior NiM player myself, but I've seen enough of that playerbase to know what I'm talking about).

 

It is a *grave* mistake for you or anyone else to dismiss NiM'ers as "just a small bunch of players with little impact on the game community". If all of them quit at once, the effects would be dramatic. Not only would all NiM raids stop of course, but all the tougher VM ops such as Ravagers, Gods, Dxun, Temple of Sacrifice, Monolith, Mountain Queen would also more or less stop, at least in terms of full clears. Even other HM content would have problems backfilling on the run if things went wrong somewhere. The total toll on the game would be *tremendous*.

 

Bottom line is this - we run a lot events, not just for ourselves, but for others as well, in addition to helping out and backfilling etcetera. That late night pug SM or HM run that was about to fail and got bailed out by someone on the fleet? Yeah - that is often someone with NiM experience, being a bit bored, hanging out on fleet, responding to the "LF".

Edited by YanYama
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My level 60 arms warrior in Wow has over 25 keybinds. It's very similar to my guardian in many ways, definitely not simpler or smoother.

 

There's a difference between keybinds and rotations though. I've got 4 bars full of keybinds on my warlock but that's covering mouseover macros, cooldowns, situational stuff. Take away the extraneous parts and you've got 6-10 buttons in the rotation depending on the spec. And you can shrink that down with a decent macro for cooldowns.

 

My inquisitor by contrast is running around 14. That's on a UI that can't compete with the user-friendliness of WoW's system (Weak Auras, threatplates, elvui), making dot maintenance and cooldowns much more of a pain to keep track of in SWTOR.

Edited by zephrys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the percentage of players playing ranked and NiM ops is so tiny as to basically make it inconsequential in the long run. According to starparse, we are currently at roughly 250 NiM ops done per week across all servers. If all those people quit the game right now (and they won't, because sunk cost fallacy is a thing), you would barely notice.

 

And frankly, the ranked PvP is filled with arseholes that will tell you to kill yourself for even slightly suboptimal play, and as such, they can all go burn themselves in hell and the game will be better for it.

 

Some of the most open-minded, friendly and helpful people in this game I met in ranked PvP community. They are always eager to teach less experienced players the nuances of their class and how to use them in extreme, fast-paced situations. Some will even train you in their personal stronghold arena until you're good. So no, not all people in ranked are said "arseholes". Again you narrow down your view by concentrating only on the negative aspect. Ranked PvP and NiMs matter a lot in this game and not every tryhard is toxic as hell.

Edited by Labranth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you cut the essential abilities from classes...

 

Stop right there. Before we can go any further we need you to identify what essential abilities specifically are you referring to. Without that baseline there can be no dialogue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stop right there. Before we can go any further we need you to identify what essential abilities specifically are you referring to. Without that baseline there can be no dialogue.

 

If you follow forums at all, you know which abilities are missing and instead we're given a choice to pick 1 of 3 abilities that we already had prior to PTS. I'm referring to somewhat similar in their importance abilities on different classes, like Exfiltrate and Laceration on Concealment Operative, or Crushing Darkness and Phase Walk on Lightning Sorcerer.

Nope, we don't need clarification for something this obvious to go any further. Not from me that's for sure. From devs, yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...