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In favor of ability pruning


dwimorling

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I'll start by admitting I'm a newer player (WoW refugee) and felt the need to make a post about this because I've seen a lot of posts here condemning the idea of removing any abilities in 7.0

 

I'm saying PLEASE take away some buttons. I play a Fury Marauder and Deception Assassin so far, and for Fury especially, the number of just damage abilities seems incredibly bloated. Between 2 saber throws, ravage, obliterate, vicious strike, raging blow etc. Even in casual content, I feel like my eyes are just constantly hunting all over my several bars to see when the next big damage move is glowing with a proc or coming off CD. That's not what makes a class feel unique or well-designed for me. And I don't think combining abilities or reducing bloat takes away from class identity if the utility is preserved (IE. abilities like Force Choke or Mad Dash should definitely stay).

 

Anyone else feel that some pruning is needed and there's a good middle ground to be attained? I strongly believe that reducing button bloat is not the same thing as "dumbing down" what I've already started to think is a pretty great game.

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I think a lot of us agree that there are too many buttons. Most of us are just kind of upset over the choices they're having us make because a lot of them conflict with each other in terms of importance. Like choose between A and B, but both abilities are core Jedi Guardian abilities and you should get both of them.

 

I don't speak for everyone, but that's my consensus. I want less buttons, but I think they went a little too far.

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I'll start by admitting I'm a newer player (WoW refugee) and felt the need to make a post about this because I've seen a lot of posts here condemning the idea of removing any abilities in 7.0

 

I'm saying PLEASE take away some buttons. I play a Fury Marauder and Deception Assassin so far, and for Fury especially, the number of just damage abilities seems incredibly bloated. Between 2 saber throws, ravage, obliterate, vicious strike, raging blow etc. Even in casual content, I feel like my eyes are just constantly hunting all over my several bars to see when the next big damage move is glowing with a proc or coming off CD. That's not what makes a class feel unique or well-designed for me. And I don't think combining abilities or reducing bloat takes away from class identity if the utility is preserved (IE. abilities like Force Choke or Mad Dash should definitely stay).

 

Anyone else feel that some pruning is needed and there's a good middle ground to be attained? I strongly believe that reducing button bloat is not the same thing as "dumbing down" what I've already started to think is a pretty great game.

 

It isn't my intention to offend, but if Rage or Fury seem like they have too many buttons for you it's probably practice that you need. I typically run 36 hotkeys (bound) and I can do everything I need to do without looking at my bar, keyboard, or mouse.

 

You as a player can choose to add or remove certain things to clean up the look of your UI visually. I don't think that other people need to have their choices removed (and the game dumbed down) simply because you have a hard time following what's going on.

 

A player's ability to handle attacking, defending, positioning, and assisting allies is part of what makes this game competitive. Removing this aspect seems like they're getting rid of the skill / competitive nature of the game (to me). Instead of being able to do all of these things well and shine as a player, we all just get basic functionality and that's it. From a PVP perspective this sounds awful.

 

A recommendation to help you if you haven't done so already, hotkey your rotation and practice it until you can execute it without looking. Then you should really only be thinking about when you can saber throw, use a utility, or a dcd.

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It isn't my intention to offend, but if Rage or Fury seem like they have too many buttons for you it's probably practice that you need. I typically run 36 hotkeys (bound) and I can do everything I need to do without looking at my bar, keyboard, or mouse.

 

You as a player can choose to add or remove certain things to clean up the look of your UI visually. I don't think that other people need to have their choices removed (and the game dumbed down) simply because you have a hard time following what's going on.

 

A player's ability to handle attacking, defending, positioning, and assisting allies is part of what makes this game competitive. Removing this aspect seems like they're getting rid of the skill / competitive nature of the game (to me). Instead of being able to do all of these things well and shine as a player, we all just get basic functionality and that's it. From a PVP perspective this sounds awful.

 

A recommendation to help you if you haven't done so already, hotkey your rotation and practice it until you can execute it without looking. Then you should really only be thinking about when you can saber throw, use a utility, or a dcd.

 

He doesn't need practice. He needs less buttons.

 

Ability glut is a barrier for entry to this game. This has been known for a while.

 

Sorry if that pisses all over your rotations but you'll adjust.

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He doesn't need practice. He needs less buttons.

 

Ability glut is a barrier for entry to this game. This has been known for a while.

 

Sorry if that pisses all over your rotations but you'll adjust.

 

Folks have no excuse in this day and age for not finding the information they need to learn this game. You not liking certain abilities is not valid reason the entire community should have to give up certain powers because YOU have decided you don't like them. If the OP is having trouble he can ask for help and there are people who would gladly help him out. There are guides and videos that can be looked at as well. new players are only as helpless as they choose to be.

 

You people need to get over yourselves with thinking the community revolves around you, and that others should have to give up abilities because YOU have decided there are too many. No one is forcing you to use them. It also sounds like Marauder is not the best choice of class for the OP as well.

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He doesn't need practice. He needs less buttons.

 

Ability glut is a barrier for entry to this game. This has been known for a while.

 

Sorry if that pisses all over your rotations but you'll adjust.

 

It isn't my rotation, it's the totality of the gaming experience.

 

A barrier to entry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There are very few things about swtor in its current state that are hard to grasp. The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind.

 

Also for OP, this could help you out with Fury Mara if you haven't seen it already.

 

https://vulkk.com/2020/01/12/swtor-6-0-fury-marauder-guide-by-anatessia/

Edited by Dyne-
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I should also add that if folks like the OP are having a hard time with something, we can't help them if they don't ask. I would rather sit and help someone for a few hours or however long it takes than see the game as a whole nerfed and trashed. This goes beyond just singular toons as the guy above me pointed out. This is about the game as a whole.

 

If I have abilities A B C D E baseline now on all classes, but abilities B, C and D are taken from me, that leaves me with only abilities A and E. I now have 2 abilities for my class vs the previous 5. If they then offer me a choice of ability to keep from B C D, it's still a nerf to the class as a whole as I'm still missing 2 abilities from before that were baseline. Guardian is just the thing on PTS right now. If they've done this to Guardian, it's safe to assume the other classes will have been equally nerfed, if not more so depending on the class. This isn't about folks not wanting to learn new rotations, but wanting to keep the things that make SWTOR unique.

 

As for the OP, I personally recommend the Razer Naga mouse that has the 12 buttons on the side, and customizing those buttons with your rotation. I own a Naga myself and would be willing to help set those buttons up if need be. If folks are having a hard time getting into the game or learning something, we can't help if they don't say they need it. We're not mind readers.

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Ability glut is a barrier for entry to this game. This has been known for a while.

 

.

 

Known by whom? You & your OPINIONS?

 

I've been here since 2011 beta and i've only seen a handful of random forum-posters complain about "too many skills on bar" and that's usually only been applicable to a select specific couple of Class/templates.

 

Not every Class & spec needs this type of "pruning" imo. And not every new player is so quick to qquit at the first sign of challenge.

 

And i've had a Jedi Guardian tank character since beta and i've never once felt "overwhelmed by too many commands" .

 

Not once.

 

ESO is a totally different style of combat, so the limited loadout-bar (5 commands per swap) doesn't matter as much to me there. But i come from SWG, so obviously i prefer SWTOR's more robust options compared to ESO's limitations. And i was hoping this LotS announcement might signify a return to pre-4.0 type variety (or at least more 'horizontal progression' type skill trees )

 

Of course, our preferences & opinions don't mean squat compared to BioWare's development choices.

 

We all signed into the "gameplay may vary" agreement. :cool:

Edited by Nee-Elder
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Folks have no excuse in this day and age for not finding the information they need to learn this game. You not liking certain abilities is not valid reason the entire community should have to give up certain powers because YOU have decided you don't like them. If the OP is having trouble he can ask for help and there are people who would gladly help him out. There are guides and videos that can be looked at as well. new players are only as helpless as they choose to be.

 

You people need to get over yourselves with thinking the community revolves around you, and that others should have to give up abilities because YOU have decided there are too many. No one is forcing you to use them. It also sounds like Marauder is not the best choice of class for the OP as well.

 

Sorry, but the whole LEARN THE GAME!! /rage is so sad its almost funny.

 

The devs are in this to grow the player base. If they can't because most people tune out because of too many abilities, then they are going to adjust it.

 

How about this - they will reduce the abilities and divide them among the different loadouts, and instead of whining about the changes, how about once they change it YOU learn the game?

 

See how that works? Its a bad argument. And a stupid one.

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I think a lot of us agree that there are too many buttons. Most of us are just kind of upset over the choices they're having us make because a lot of them conflict with each other in terms of importance. Like choose between A and B, but both abilities are core Jedi Guardian abilities and you should get both of them.

 

I don't speak for everyone, but that's my consensus. I want less buttons, but I think they went a little too far.

 

This pretty closely captures my feelings as well. I am not against streamlining class abilities a bit, but I also think they need to take care to ensure that they try to leave as much of the utility as possible, either via passives or combining similar abilities.

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Sorry, but the whole LEARN THE GAME!! /rage is so sad its almost funny.

 

How about this - they will reduce the abilities and divide them among the different loadouts, and instead of whining about the changes, how about once they change it YOU learn the game?

 

See how that works? Its a bad argument. And a stupid one.

 

Yet it's the very same type of argument YOU yourself made an entire thread about here, no? --> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=970589

 

Irony. Hypocrisy. I'll let others decide. ;)

----

 

Folks have no excuse in this day and age for not finding the information they need to learn this game. You not liking certain abilities is not valid reason the entire community should have to give up certain powers because YOU have decided you don't like them. If the OP is having trouble he can ask for help and there are people who would gladly help him out. There are guides and videos that can be looked at as well.

 

New players are only as helpless as they choose to be.

 

.

 

QFE ^

 

And i'm still waiting for someone to show the data & evidence that "too many skills" is supposedly the big awful "gatekeeper" preventing new players from enjoying SWTOR.

 

I'll wait.

 

In the meantime, here's another theory: Could it be that most new players have access to ridiculous Cartel Market level-to-max-in-one-click item$ , completely bypassing not only the entire STORYLINE (aka the very 'pillar' this game was originally sold & founded upon) but also bypassing any sense of gradual learn-each-new-skill/spec-along-the-way-toward-max-level process?

 

---

I am not against streamlining class abilities a bit, but I also think they need to take care to ensure that they try to leave as much of the utility as possible, either via passives or combining similar abilities.

 

Very delicate tightrope to walk, that is.

 

But i hear ya and i'm hoping that's secretly what BioWare's doing (but just hasn't revealed fully to PTS yet) .

Edited by Nee-Elder
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This pretty closely captures my feelings as well. I am not against streamlining class abilities a bit, but I also think they need to take care to ensure that they try to leave as much of the utility as possible, either via passives or combining similar abilities.

 

I think diversity is needed. If BOTH are central to a jedi guardian, but in different loadouts, may I ask what the point would be of having everything that feels like a jedi guardian in one load out, and then a bunch of abilities that DON'T feel like a jedi guardian in the other "Jedi Guardian" loadout?

 

There are already enough abilities in the game to divide them up among loadouts, so saying "just make more jedi-guardiany abilities!" doesn't seem to grasp the goal here.

 

Ideally, BOTH loadouts should feel like a "jedi guardian", but have completely different play styles. Perhaps loadout 1 is force-heavy, and loadout 2 is saber-heavy. Then perhaps 2-3 shared Guardian abilities and another 2-4 general Jedi Knight abilities.

 

THAT is the path BioWare should be taking with this. And rebalance those abilities in each loadout to scale to end game.

 

It may mean you lose out on an ability picking one load out over another, but remember - they are also going to allow loadout switching, so you can change loadouts as well.

 

In the meantime, if done right, this may mean some players' favorite abilities get split between loadouts.

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I think diversity is needed. If BOTH are central to a jedi guardian, but in different loadouts, may I ask what the point would be of having everything that feels like a jedi guardian in one load out, and then a bunch of abilities that DON'T feel like a jedi guardian in the other "Jedi Guardian" loadout?

 

There are already enough abilities in the game to divide them up among loadouts, so saying "just make more jedi-guardiany abilities!" doesn't seem to grasp the goal here.

 

Ideally, BOTH loadouts should feel like a "jedi guardian", but have completely different play styles. Perhaps loadout 1 is force-heavy, and loadout 2 is saber-heavy. Then perhaps 2-3 shared Guardian abilities and another 2-4 general Jedi Knight abilities.

 

THAT is the path BioWare should be taking with this. And rebalance those abilities in each loadout to scale to end game.

 

It may mean you lose out on an ability picking one load out over another, but remember - they are also going to allow loadout switching, so you can change loadouts as well.

 

In the meantime, if done right, this may mean some players' favorite abilities get split between loadouts.

 

My friend you've just described what already exists. Rage feels like a Juggernaut, Vengeance feels like a Juggernaut, as does Immortal. While all of these specs are similar, they have pretty stark differences as well. Rage more burst, Vengeance has DOTs, AOE, cc immunity on leap, and completely different animations. Immortal has higher DR, aegis + crushing blow, and an extra DCD "invincible". This doesn't take into account the passives built into the specs as well. As it sits, they're all very different and they play like it.

 

The problem with the path that they're taking is that they're breaking up what it is that is essential to the "feel" of Juggernauts / Guardians. The core of the class is force choke, force leap (with reset), force push, saber throw / hew, mad dash, intercede, saber reflect, enraged defense, guards, and taunts at the very least. An honorable mention to chilling scream and warmonger.

 

The essence, the "feel" of a Juggernaut is tied to its utility. It's what makes it more than a copy of a Marauder with one lightsaber. Breaking up its utility in order to provide a sense of customization is asinine at best. It's like making a Marauder choose between force camo or undying rage, but not both.

 

If Bioware wants to address / break up anything, they should be addressing the crazy amount of roots, stuns, slows, and extreme speed boosts. Make more of those class and spec specific, create new abilities, or give players the ability to choose a combination of those from 1-80 to build a truly custom class.

Edited by Dyne-
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My friend you've just described what already exists. Rage feels like a Juggernaut, Vengeance feels like a Juggernaut, as does Immortal. While all of these specs are similar, they have pretty stark differences as well. Rage more burst, Vengeance has DOTs, AOE, cc immunity on leap, and completely different animations. Immortal has higher DR, aegis + crushing blow, and an extra DCD "invincible". This doesn't take into account the passives built into the specs as well. As it sits, they're all very different and they play like it.

 

The problem with the path that they're taking is that they're breaking up what it is that is essential to the "feel" of Juggernauts / Guardians. The core of the class is force choke, force leap (with reset), force push, saber throw / hew, mad dash, intercede, saber reflect, enraged defense, guards, and taunts at the very least. An honorable mention to chilling scream and warmonger.

 

The essence, the "feel" of a Juggernaut is tied to its utility. It's what makes it more than a copy of a Marauder with one lightsaber. Breaking up its utility in order to provide a sense of customization is asinine at best. It's like making a Marauder choose between force camo or undying rage, but not both.

 

If Bioware wants to address / break up anything, they should be addressing the crazy amount of roots, stuns, slows, and extreme speed boosts. Make more of those class and spec specific, create new abilities, or give players the ability to choose a combination of those from 1-80 to build a truly custom class.

 

I think it really depends.

 

I don't know at this point, based on info I got in another thread, if BioWare really is going to address the ability glut that prevents most newer players from sticking around, but even if they do trim the abilities by moving them into different loadout groups, then as long as they re-balance all the abilities each loadout has, I don't see the overall issue, especially since they said you will be able to swap loadouts.

 

The concern I have, is that they separate the abilities and DON'T rebalance them. Then you end up with what's on PTS, which I can agree is a pile of dog vomit - what I disagree with people on is the overall concept.

 

I think it has good potential. But I think in PTS it was poorly executed.

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If I ever did see a kiss *** thread, pathetic.

 

If a gaming dev does something right, ill support it. If a gaming dev does something wrong I wont. I will not under any circumstance trying to kiss ***

 

Its probably mute. The fact that the devs haven't responded probably means there going to to whatever they plan to do, regardless of feedback. What a fracking surprise.

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I'll start by admitting I'm a newer player (WoW refugee)

 

I believe the biggest problem is that classes have been mostly the same for 10 years, that means we have 10 years of content designed around how classes are as you see them now, with all the abilities they have now.

 

This game is not like WoW in which previous raids and dungeons become obsolete the moment a new xpac comes out, so whatever Blizzard does to classes doesn't matter because it is suited to new content and old content has scaling capped and is adjusted to make everything soloable by everyone.

 

No, all 10 years of raids and dungeons is all you have to play, they're all scaled up in the same pool.

 

If they radically change how classes work, they should go back and rework all endgame content accordingly.

 

We're talking about BW, they don't even fix long-standing bugs, it will take them another 10 years to properly balance everything to make it work properly IF they radically change how classes work, this we don't know yet since what's on PTS is still pretty nebulous.

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Ok, I understand that new player may have a little problem with navigating through all of his/her skills, but in the end he/she is a new player so that's normal. It takes time to get used to a new game. I was a total noob when I started playing SWtOR and now I'm easly switching betwen all of my 17 characters, each one of them on different build.

I wouldn't mind if Bioware made totally new skills and then we would have to choose betwen them, but removing skills which already exist is simply wrong.

Also, unlike some of other games like e.g. Star Wars Battlefront 2, SWtOR is Tab target game. There is no aiming in SWtOR. All you can do is learn your rotation & smash your skills. If they remove half of abilities game will be too simplifed.

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If I ever did see a kiss *** thread, pathetic.

 

If a gaming dev does something right, ill support it. If a gaming dev does something wrong I wont. I will not under any circumstance trying to kiss ***

 

Its probably mute. The fact that the devs haven't responded probably means there going to to whatever they plan to do, regardless of feedback. What a fracking surprise.

 

Just out of curiousity, does this apply to the opposite side of the aisle too? i.e. "I beg you, don't take away my abilities"?

 

I better get out before I get sent an essay on that quote.

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I believe the biggest problem is that classes have been mostly the same for 10 years, that means we have 10 years of content designed around how classes are as you see them now, with all the abilities they have now.

 

This game is not like WoW in which previous raids and dungeons become obsolete the moment a new xpac comes out, so whatever Blizzard does to classes doesn't matter because it is suited to new content and old content has scaling capped and is adjusted to make everything soloable by everyone.

 

No, all 10 years of raids and dungeons is all you have to play, they're all scaled up in the same pool.

 

If they radically change how classes work, they should go back and rework all endgame content accordingly.

 

We're talking about BW, they don't even fix long-standing bugs, it will take them another 10 years to properly balance everything to make it work properly IF they radically change how classes work, this we don't know yet since what's on PTS is still pretty nebulous.

 

100% agreed on this.

 

So, here's the thing. Action RPGs are the thing right now. Small handful of upgradeable moves that are triggered by movement base. Its what is getting churned out and what many people are now USED to playing.

 

If they ever went 100% that direction, I could see a REAL full scale riot break out among the hardcore, even though Star Wars itself lends itself better to being an action-packed type of gaming system rather than the queue-based system we have now.

 

That said, for newer players, what we have now is TOO cumbersome. Its too many abilities, many of which are completely useless for endgame. How is a player to know? And frankly current community isn't the friendliest either like it used to be - what's left is the older, veteran, "learn to play and get off my lawn!" crowd, for the most part.

 

So I see what BioWare is trying to do is a happy medium. If you take all of these abilities, and divide them among all the different potential loadouts to give each loadout a REAL different type of play style, this could make the game FEEL more dynamic, even with a queue based combat system.

 

But then, as you say, it means nothing if they don't BALANCE it properly.

 

Ideally, when a player is finished and in end game, they should have 8-12 abilities, MAX. This doesn't include emotes, speeders, utility perks, travel, etc. 8-12 combat skills.

 

But whatever those skills are, the developers better

 

A) Balance the hell out of those skills so the playstyle of the loadout is endgame-viable.

B) Balance the game itself to account for these new play styles (what's the point of a stun-based loadout if bosses are stun immune? etc)

C) Make sure each loadout feels like it has its own unique play style - what's the point if an advanced class has all but 2 shared abilities, and the loadout only grants 2 different abilities to "differentiate" itself? Isn't that what we have now with advanced classes and utility points? That would just be more work for effectively the same result we have now, which is pointless.

 

IF the devs can't do A, B, AND C, then there is no point to any of the combat changes they are proposing - they would be just doing what we have now in a different way.

 

But if they CAN pull off A B and C, you could end up with a system that is pretty damn amazing, and a lot more kinetic than what we have now (Press 1, move, press 2, press 3, move, press 4, move, press 5, press 6 move etc)....

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That said, for newer players, what we have now is TOO cumbersome. Its too many abilities, many of which are completely useless for endgame. How is a player to know?

 

I keep hearing this from people on the forums, but is that really how new players feel? I'd love to have some statistics.

 

I mean, I'm on reddit every day answering new players questions and I see their reactions. Many are confused by game features, they ask all sorts of questions about the story, the classes, pieces of content they don't understand and so on, but I honestly don't see them complaining about having too many buttons.

 

They do complain about bugs and performance, those IMO are serious problems that should have the priority. As a veteran I try to ignore those problems even if they can be very annoying at times, because I'm already invested into the game, but first impression is very important to new people, they will judge that.

 

As for new generations being used to ARPGs, I agree, but I played Classic WoW when it came out (old-school "too many buttons" poorly balanced kind of game, compared to modern ones) and there were teens playing it that weren't even born when it came out originally nor played modern WoW before (so nostalgia can't apply to them) and they were having a blast.

 

I believe we underestimate the abilities of younger generations, they're not all stupid and unwilling to learn as some people on the forums picture them, some of them honestly enjoy the higher "cumbersomeness" of a more old-school game.

 

 

But if they CAN pull off A B and C, you could end up with a system that is pretty damn amazing, and a lot more kinetic than what we have now

 

I agree with this, but that's not an easy feat, at all, I mean even Blizzard can have serious problems balancing things when they make radical changes, let alone BW.

 

An example: when they introduced level scaling, it took BW ages to fix problems tied to it, like for example putting a filter on the leveling dungeons pool to avoid lvl 20 players ending up in lvl 50 FPs and failing HARD because they required a set of abilities that lvl 20 didn't have yet. How many new players felt utterly frustrated? How many left because of it? We don't know.

 

How many new players give up on this game because of the plethora of bugs and awful performance? Again WE don't know, but it's not difficult to go to any gaming subreddit and check opinions on new games, when people massively bash on new games it's because of bugs and performance, not how many buttons there are to press.

 

That's not to say reducing ability bloat is not desirable, but I have the impression that some people here believe that improving the ability toolkit will make the game so much better for new players, IT WON'T, because way before they reach the point of seeing the entire toolkit they can have, they're likely put off by the amount of bugs and poor performance.

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In all honesty, there are abilities that I do not use in my rotation. So while, I guess Pruning abilities really isnt that big a deal, it will free up some space in my toolbars.

 

As a tank, choosing between enure and saber reflect, thats kind if lame.

 

These abilities can really save my backside when tanking for a PUG.

 

Then again, with the grit teeth tactical, i dont really use enure that often.

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That's the thing - a lot of abilities are only useful in niches and can honestly be done without. If you don't know which abilities CAN be lost, then you don't really know your class.

 

Really looking forward to a more streamlined SWTOR

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