Jump to content

Analysis of ACTIVE abilities - LIVE vs PTS


FumblesPhD

Recommended Posts

https://i.redd.it/l9339bc8iia71.png

Here is a spreadsheet I did for active abilities across disciplines as it stands on LIVE and PTS.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/ohxw3w/comparison_of_live_and_pts_jedi_guardian/

Here is the reddit thread with the current conversation surrounding this analysis.

 

I hope that you find this informative and that it can inspire further analysis and discussion.

 

Cheers,

Xareledan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of my thoughts regarding this as a ten year Guardian main:

 

Removing Challenging Call from DPS abilities isn't a bad thing at all. It really only had two uses on it's normal level: to reduce incoming damage to friends in PvP and to drop threat in PvE situations. The second one is a situation that can be resolved by re-designing how threat is built. Having to press Challenging Call when you get aggro really isn't adding anything to my gameplay and I'd just like to see that keybind gone. The damage reduction is kind of a sensitive topic in PvP. I can see the benefit of having damage reduction, but PvP combat drags out super long as it is with so many DCD and damage reductions going on.

 

Enure should be baseline alongside Saber Ward. Full stop. I don't think this is something we need to argue about. It's a one-size-fits-all cool down that I believe belongs in the toolkit. Failing that, Focused Defense should return as baseline. One of these two needs to return into the baseline kit alongside Saber Ward to provide a heal (or pseudo heal for Enure) to the Guardian. Taking away both will nuke Vigilance and Focus survival just a bit too much.

 

I'm fine with Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz being mutually exclusive choices. A full on 4-second reflect or more movement seems par for the course for choice.

 

Dispatch is modified by a level 80 passive, so I assume we're simply looking at this missing due to it being PTS instead of it being a deliberate design choice.

 

Freezing Force is a passive now, so good riddance to that. I always found the execution of it coupled with Persistent Chill to be strange. A low-cost AoE slow without a cooldown that could add an AoE DoT and a movement speed increase to you. It's functionally the same as adding an aura that slows everyone and buffs your movement speed. It was always kind of a no-brainer.

 

At the moment this seems to be 24 buttons + Dispatch returning + being able to choose Awe and Saber Throw + Combat Focus returning. Including medpacs and stim packs, that should get us to somewhere around 30 keybinds. Yeah, I don't think that's too bad at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An excellently insightful post. Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts. I tend to agree with what it is that you are saying and I look forward to continuing to monitor changes across the PTS in the coming iterations.

 

I think that with things like the AoE Taunt removal for DPS specs (and the dmg reduction that is omnipresent from the always picked utility), the devs will rebalance and rework other passives and actives to fill in whatever gaps are left in utility once the dust settles.

 

Good catch on dispatch and freezing force. I agree that baking the freezing force into a passive is a good move, and a decidedly solid means of addressing ability bloat without removing utility. Something I think we will see more of as we go on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's really interesting to me, is that based on the projected number of abilities, the "trimming" of abilities is going to be almost insignificant. On the order of 3 to 4 out of 31 to 33. So despite the current PTS quickbar being about 33% less filled than I'm used to on live, most of those empty slots will be filled in again if they proceed according to plan.

 

I'm not really a fan of the idea of taking away active defensive buttons from a tank spec the way they have in this first draft, but other than that (which they might consider revising, and depending on what the 3 mystery abilities are might not end up being an issue anyway), it looks mostly like they're trying to go from what we have:

 

Cookie cutter specs, where everyone reads the guides and specs that way.

 

and transform it into

 

Multiple viable specs where the base rotation stays true to the class but where the specialization that we take the term spec from actually creates more of a meaningful playstyle difference. Hopefully one that works well enough that people feel that they can hop around in different builds.

 

I'm holding judgement on execution of the plan, but the underlying idea/vision of what they're trying to do actually sounds pretty good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's really interesting to me, is that based on the projected number of abilities, the "trimming" of abilities is going to be almost insignificant. On the order of 3 to 4 out of 31 to 33. So despite the current PTS quickbar being about 33% less filled than I'm used to on live, most of those empty slots will be filled in again if they proceed according to plan.

 

The current PTS quickbar is still missing important abilities that are even referenced in 7.0 passives. Hence I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

 

Multiple viable specs where the base rotation stays true to the class but where the specialization that we take the term spec from actually creates more of a meaningful playstyle difference. Hopefully one that works well enough that people feel that they can hop around in different builds.

 

I feel what they are trying is twofold here. The first idea is to create a good framework for the loadouts. I feel like a loadout will actually replace all of this with the click of a button, and that's what they wanted to show us with the Guardian on PTS this time around. You make one loadout that has all the active abilities, one with good AoE damage, one for PvP and so on, and then you switch those (including gear, quickbar binds etc.) with one click. If you are a player who likes a lot of active abilities, you can do that, but you don't get as many overly powerful passives. If you don't like so many actives and would rather hyper-specialize for the current content you're running (e.g AoE damage for farming) you can create loadouts that do just that.

 

In the process they are trying to take a few abilities out that are just bloating other specs and could be handled better. Freezing Force becoming a passive I don't have to worry about is one thing. Challenging Call on DPS is another. As I said, I'd much rather re-work threat generation than pretend pressing that adds gameplay flavor.

 

Other examples that come to mind are Progressive Scan on non-healing mercs. I remember multiple guild members asking me what this is good for since they channel so long and heal so little, and the answer is: not much on a DPS. You already have your heal that becomes instant cast on a proc, have other heals in your arsenal and so on. Best case scenario is bait an interrupt in PvP. It's usually a filler in Bodyguard. That will be another example of where an ability is moved to Bodyguard only and arsenal and IO lose access to it solely because it's not something you'd actually use effectively on either of those two.

 

Overall, that's the impression I get from Guardian so far. They are very keen to hear which abilities are integral to the rotation and the feel of the class, but have already identified some that don't belong. Challenging Call on DPS characters was always a relic and could honestly be solved much better if the damage reduction was moved somewhere else and it became a mass taunt for tanks. And between us, I'd not mind a little bit less damage reduction in PvP. Current arena matches can heavily drag on if both sides have some good classes and just have a bit of knowledge of what they do to a point where you'll be hitting dummies for five minutes. Huttball is also difficult when nothing ever dies and everything has like five movement abilities and improvements.

 

I like it overall. Just...please return either Enure or Focused Defense to baseline. Making both of them specific is a tad too much.

Edited by Alssaran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The current PTS quickbar is still missing important abilities that are even referenced in 7.0 passives. Hence I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

I feel what they are trying is twofold here. The first idea is to create a good framework for the loadouts. I feel like a loadout will actually replace all of this with the click of a button, and that's what they wanted to show us with the Guardian on PTS this time around. You make one loadout that has all the active abilities, one with good AoE damage, one for PvP and so on, and then you switch those (including gear, quickbar binds etc.) with one click. If you are a player who likes a lot of active abilities, you can do that, but you don't get as many overly powerful passives. If you don't like so many actives and would rather hyper-specialize for the current content you're running (e.g AoE damage for farming) you can create loadouts that do just that.

 

In the process they are trying to take a few abilities out that are just bloating other specs and could be handled better. Freezing Force becoming a passive I don't have to worry about is one thing. Challenging Call on DPS is another. As I said, I'd much rather re-work threat generation than pretend pressing that adds gameplay flavor.

 

Other examples that come to mind are Progressive Scan on non-healing mercs. I remember multiple guild members asking me what this is good for since they channel so long and heal so little, and the answer is: not much on a DPS. You already have your heal that becomes instant cast on a proc, have other heals in your arsenal and so on. Best case scenario is bait an interrupt in PvP. It's usually a filler in Bodyguard. That will be another example of where an ability is moved to Bodyguard only and arsenal and IO lose access to it solely because it's not something you'd actually use effectively on either of those two.

 

Overall, that's the impression I get from Guardian so far. They are very keen to hear which abilities are integral to the rotation and the feel of the class, but have already identified some that don't belong. Challenging Call on DPS characters was always a relic and could honestly be solved much better if the damage reduction was moved somewhere else and it became a mass taunt for tanks. And between us, I'd not mind a little bit less damage reduction in PvP. Current arena matches can heavily drag on if both sides have some good classes and just have a bit of knowledge of what they do to a point where you'll be hitting dummies for five minutes. Huttball is also difficult when nothing ever dies and everything has like five movement abilities and improvements.

 

I like it overall. Just...please return either Enure or Focused Defense to baseline. Making both of them specific is a tad too much.

 

AOE taunt is not just about threat reduction you keep posting that aoe taunt on DPS is solely about threat reduction. If you played dps jugg AT ALL you would know that its also your 60% AOE DR button, highest AOE DR in the game. But its limited its not like the other classes that get a free 30% all the time you have to use your knowledge of the fight to use it effectively and rewards you for good play removing this and tacking on a basic 30% DR utility would be so stupid and hurt juggs identity. Not to mention that its a AOE taunt in PvP removing that (and intercede) from jugg makes it a basic melee dps, not the awesome dps that can tank a little bit.

 

I am assuming that by progressive scan you mean healing scan (since only healer mercs get prog scan). Yea its not always used when you're in burn phase of styrak or killing daily mobs on onderon. But if you're waiting on boss, why not help your healers? If you just got taken down to 10% in a 4v4 and managed to disengage from the fight why not run around a corner and heal yourself. Removing these niche abilities makes the class stale and take away from the shine of a class.

 

Make every character in the game "X" melee or ranged dps while you're at it. Hyper focusing on the core of the class and only worrying about the "rotation" will make the class lose its flavor. Making dps jugg only good at dpsing isnt what dps jugg is about. DPS jugg is about being able to swap between a more tank focused role and a dps focused role on a dime in pvp and in pve. Advocating for less inventive uses for abilities is no good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Enure should be baseline alongside Saber Ward. Full stop. I don't think this is something we need to argue about. It's a one-size-fits-all cool down that I believe belongs in the toolkit. Failing that, Focused Defense should return as baseline. One of these two needs to return into the baseline kit alongside Saber Ward to provide a heal (or pseudo heal for Enure) to the Guardian. Taking away both will nuke Vigilance and Focus survival just a bit too much.

 

You know that saber ward is a completely different DCD right? It has a 2 minute and 30 second CD. That only works when you're not stunned. I can pop 2 Enure's by the time saber ward comes off cooldown and you think its cool to just add it to saber ward and call it a day, Enure is also the only cleanse for Guardian(with utility) so guardian just cleanses onse every 2 minutes and 30 seconds? Ok then, moving on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AOE taunt is not just about threat reduction you keep posting that aoe taunt on DPS is solely about threat reduction. If you played dps jugg AT ALL you would know that its also your 60% AOE DR button, highest AOE DR in the game.

 

Quote from my post:

 

Challenging Call on DPS characters was always a relic and could honestly be solved much better if the damage reduction was moved somewhere else and it became a mass taunt for tanks. And between us, I'd not mind a little bit less damage reduction in PvP.

 

But if you're waiting on boss, why not help your healers? If you just got taken down to 10% in a 4v4 and managed to disengage from the fight why not run around a corner and heal yourself. Removing these niche abilities makes the class stale and take away from the shine of a class.

 

You might just as well use any other of your healing abilities during an intermission phase. It's a redundant button when you already have other heals to choose from even on an arsenal and IO merc. Some of them will even be affected by utility/ability procs, so you can toss out a couple instant heals inbetween. I'd have to check which of the healing spells gets the instant cast proc, considering both just blend into me with names such as "rapid scan" and "healing scan", but it exists as a synergy on my arsenal merc.

 

Here's the problem: you can't just make up these one in a million scenarios (where you even have other options present) as a justification so that not a single ability ever has to be removed. That's what people do who can't throw anything away. "This might become important at some point in the future if X and Y and Z happens at the same time, so let's keep it."

 

I'll now turn this around and return the question to you: explain to me in clear detail what healing scan/progressive scan adds to the DPS mercenary kit that is interesting or worthwhile to play with? No, not some metaphysical nonsense about class identity or "flavor." Explain to me - from a design standpoint - why this ability is not redundant when another one exists that does a better job and even procs with the toolkit.

 

You know that saber ward is a completely different DCD right? It has a 2 minute and 30 second CD. That only works when you're not stunned. I can pop 2 Enure's by the time saber ward comes off cooldown and you think its cool to just add it to saber ward and call it a day.

 

I said it should return into the baseline kit alongside Saber Ward for a total of two DCD. Not be merged into Saber Ward. Terminology is important.

Edited by Alssaran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said in other threads that I don't actually mind taking down the necessary keybind count to something a little more manageable than what it is now. The thing that I think has been hit on in this discussion is what is it that not only forms the core of a certain class, but differentiates it from the other classes.

 

I've played tons of guardian/juggernaut dps (mostly vigilance/vengeance). I've also played all the other classes in the game. The thing that makes guardian dps a unique melee dps is the ability to basically off-tank a little, or in extreme emergencies just straight tank for a short period of time. The incidents I remember most are things like saving a fight by taunting and essentially stepping up to tank when the real tank went down.

 

We also can't pretend that all the dps classes are actually equal in dps output, or that they ever will be. Besides the fact that at one point in the past at least (and I have not seen anything that tells me this has changed) Bioware had certain metrics for where each dps class should be parsing relative to a baseline. Add that up with the fact that melee and ranged dps will never be equal in this game in a ton of fights...there are so many fights that seem designed just to aggravate melee dps (that will only get worse if they reduce mobility from where it is currently). Up time is a thing when you aren't on a training dummy.

 

The point I'm making there, is that each class is supposed to have a little bonus that makes up for their downsides. Guardian is supposed to be the heavy armor, defensive cooldown having, tough to kill melee dps. We get a little bit of tank kit. Other classes get a little bit of healing kit. Some classes are just pure dps and give all that up, and they rightly feel they should do more dps because of how squishy they are. This has all been part of the class design since day one, and that is what we don't want to lose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://i.redd.it/l9339bc8iia71.png

Here is a spreadsheet I did for active abilities across disciplines as it stands on LIVE and PTS.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/ohxw3w/comparison_of_live_and_pts_jedi_guardian/

Here is the reddit thread with the current conversation surrounding this analysis.

 

I hope that you find this informative and that it can inspire further analysis and discussion.

 

Cheers,

Xareledan

 

If you have the time, I'd love to see you do this for every spec in the current live game. This could be used to more easily compare the total number of active abilities per spec.

 

I think guardian was a poor class for them to prune. It has probably the most complete set of abilities in the game in my opinion. Other classes could probably use a bit of pruning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at this, it looks like the pruning of abilities isn't going far enough.

 

That's still way too many abilities per advanced class.

 

If done right, each class should have about a third to a quarter of the abilities it currently has. Then those abilities need to be rebalanced and reworked into different play styles.

 

If there is a ton of abilities left over, then make play styles where each advanced class has two different play styles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at this, it looks like the pruning of abilities isn't going far enough.

 

That's still way too many abilities per advanced class.

 

If done right, each class should have about a third to a quarter of the abilities it currently has. Then those abilities need to be rebalanced and reworked into different play styles.

 

If there is a ton of abilities left over, then make play styles where each advanced class has two different play styles

 

That is your opinion. No one I know shares your opinion. Gut 66% to 75% from each class, sheesh. Remember the first question in the Feedback thread, does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Darn, remember the second, third and fourth questions as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is your opinion. No one I know shares your opinion. Gut 66% to 75% from each class, sheesh. Remember the first question in the Feedback thread, does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Darn, remember the second, third and fourth questions as well.

 

Having been here since the beginning, despite taking a year off here and there in the last 3, I can tell you the developers know and have stated they know only the real hardcore post on the forums.

 

The response here, while valuable, isn't even 1/10th of the overall engagement when they consider all the data they have at their disposal.

 

Therefore, no one should be under any illusions - the people on the forum represent a vocal minority when it comes to the player base - NOT the majority.

 

Its something I am well aware of - and it is why preening and flouncing oft get ignored in favor of constructive feedback.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been here since the beginning, despite taking a year off here and there in the last 3, I can tell you the developers know and have stated they know only the real hardcore post on the forums.

 

This account was created 06/17/2009 :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This account was created 06/17/2009 :cool:

 

Heh - here since Beta 2 of SWTOR - first char I rolled was a smuggler.

 

Honestly though, being around that long doesn't really make us more important than anyone else - but it does mean we've seen a lot other people haven't and can offer unique perspectives that people who joined later may not know about...

 

(Incidentally, Account Creation Date: 10.25.08 )

Edited by ZionHalcyon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This account was created 06/17/2009

 

(Incidentally, Account Creation Date: 10.25.08 )

 

Beat ya both --> Account Creation Date: 10.22.08 , Collector's Edition & everything ;)

 

, it does show at least on a superficial level that we care, !

 

Sometimes a bit too much , but yes.

----

 

Anyways, back ON-TOPIC ...

 

I've said in other threads that I don't actually mind taking down the necessary keybind count to something a little more manageable than what it is now. The thing that I think has been hit on in this discussion is what is it that not only forms the core of a certain class, but differentiates it from the other classes.

 

Exactly! That ^ is what i've been trying to articulate in other threads and why this whole generlized "ability glut must go!" narrative is so inaccurate.

 

Some classes & specs have very few skills on toolbar ( like Jedi Shadow 'infiltration' , for example) .

 

Therefore, i'm just a bit "concerned" (video game relatively speaking) about how exactly BioWare is gonna "balance" (if that's even possible in a MMO) all 8 classes + sub-classes + "new" advanced loadouts PLUS 10 years of built up content & combat.

 

. I do software systems analysis and development.

 

I did the same types of things for 'SWGEmu' Project (the original from which all the others subsequent used our code :cool: ) --- So i'm very curious to see what your further analysis indicates once JackieKo & Devs update the PTS instructions for next round. It's def. helpful and i wish more humans enjoyed creating spreadsheets! :ph_thank_you:

Edited by Nee-Elder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Therefore, i'm just a bit "concerned" (video game relatively speaking) about how exactly BioWare is gonna "balance" (if that's even possible in a MMO) all 8 classes + sub-classes + "new" advanced loadouts PLUS 10 years of built up content & combat.

 

I'm paraphrasing here, but they mentioned that they are completely retooling the combat scaling system (part of what I think is crippling companions in this iteration of PTS - scaling is not active). That is why I think we are not seeing much information regarding the DCDs and interrupts and such... I am betting that, once *everything is out in the open* it will be clear that "Oh, for that concern of yours about this, we have implemented that", and other such "ah, I see now" moments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm paraphrasing here, but they mentioned that they are completely retooling the combat scaling system (part of what I think is crippling companions in this iteration of PTS - scaling is not active). That is why I think we are not seeing much information regarding the DCDs and interrupts and such... I am betting that, once *everything is out in the open* it will be clear that "Oh, for that concern of yours about this, we have implemented that", and other such "ah, I see now" moments.

 

Frankly, they could be making it so that there either won't be a need for DCDs, interrupts, stuns etc, or more likely, they will be changing the way they work to fit in with the new paradigm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm paraphrasing here, but they mentioned that they are completely retooling the combat scaling system (part of what I think is crippling companions in this iteration of PTS - scaling is not active). That is why I think we are not seeing much information regarding the DCDs and interrupts and such... I am betting that, once *everything is out in the open* it will be clear that "Oh, for that concern of yours about this, we have implemented that", and other such "ah, I see now" moments.

 

Yep i sorta remember that from the 'livestream' but tbqh i'm starting to understand more of what this update could become more so from certain PLAYERS (yourself included) than i did from BioWare themselves.

 

I suppose that's ok though, since despite all our frequent forum squabbles & such , SWTOR still has a fairly decent community willing to explain (and assist) other fellow players.

 

p.s. i have a sneaky feeling i'm gonna be 1 of the "ah, i see now" moments people :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fellow methuselah here (Account Creation Date: 01.27.09)

 

While I wish the PTS had been more indepth/complete for guardians, I'm excited about upcoming class & spec changes -- for better or worse. Before 6.0, classes/specs had become stagnant over the years.

 

I don't want gameplay to be dumbed down, but I do think there is ability bloat, particularly for DPS specs. Do we really need saber throw and whirling blade/dispatch? Why can't Enure be baked into Focused Defense? Why can't saber reflect be baked into the first seconds of Saber Ward? Freezing force? Cool ability, but not particularly necessary. For tanks, these may be a different story, but I don't claim to be a tank main. So I'm ok with some ability pruning.

 

I think a hurdle for the devs is in ability pruning pvp vs raiding. For example, I only have a niche use of Awe as a raider, but in pvp, it can be quite strong, particularly in arenas.

 

Lastly, I think 7.0 will bring back "builds" even more so than 6.0's set bonuses/tacticals. That's one thing I really missed about the old skill tree system.

 

Great spreadsheet btw, Fumblesphd.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a hurdle for the devs is in ability pruning pvp vs raiding. For example, I only have a niche use of Awe as a raider, but in pvp, in can be quite strong, particularly in arenas.

 

I think this is where loadouts will come in at the end. The idea is clearly that we will have different loadouts with varying passives and combat styles for different kinds of content, and then switch between those easily. Hence why they are also adding the functionality of saving our current ability bar setup. There's certainly a few things that need to be tweaked, but I feel it's very apparent that loadouts and the new spec system are supposed to work hand-in-hand in enabling different abilities across different kinds of content with ease.

 

I get being attached to certain abilities as well, especially after almost a decade, but the current TTK in PvP is an issue. The fact abilities like Combat Roll and Blade Blitz exist alongside survivability and utility as baseline doesn't make balancing Huttball easy either.

Edited by Alssaran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...