Jump to content

Ability pruning will lead to subscribers pruning


bladech

Recommended Posts

Yes I have -- Vigi only tho. I downloaded the huge PTS copy because I was all hyped, only to find out in game that I'm not even level 80 yet :o Nor was there any utilities or anything. Didnt the guardian feel incredibly incomplete to you?

 

TBH, I think the devs rushed the PTS out before they had much for us to even test (they wanted to make the deadline Musco mentioned in the livestream). Perhaps the test is to see how we would react to ability pruning lol

 

This is a good point and what I HOPE is going on based on what Jackie has said in the pinned threads.

 

From a user experience perspective, you want to gather feedback at every step during prototyping and production so that you don't spend hundreds of work hours on something that the customer (us) doesn't want.

 

By throwing out a very high level look at what's going on they can gather constructive feedback before fully developing ABC options for 24 disciplines, build a UI, potentially make new animations and rebalance the entire PVE side of the game.

 

If nothing changes with the Sentinel (coming next week) and we get two classes on the PTS per month, they won't have any time to make changes before the expansion launches.

 

Best we can do is be vocal but constructive with feedback on the pinned threads and vote with our wallets if nothing changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 94
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Every expansion we lose more players than we gain from unpopular changes Bioware make to “improve” or “change the direction” of the game.

 

When we had plenty of players, this wasn’t a massive issue because there was a buffer there.

But now we are down to one semi full US server, one half full US server, one semi full English EU server and two half dead Language EU servers.

 

So there really isn’t a margin for error this time. Sure we will lose some players, it’s expected every expansion that we get a bump in numbers and then a few months later end up with less than before the expansion.

 

In the past, BioWare have been really arrogant towards players feed back and outright ignored it and that’s why we’ve got an on going reduction in player numbers. While other games like FFXIV are always gaining more players each expansion because they listen to their community and are willing to change direction.

 

I’m hoping that BioWare have realised they have no buffer this time to ignore player feedback to just go ahead with unpopular ideas. If they do, I have grave fears the game won’t recover from another mass exodus.

 

This is a good point especially at a time when Final Fantasy had to halt new subscriptions over night due to so many players moving over form WOW...No joke.

 

Now I log in and look at SWToR... If SWToR was anywhere near its true potential as a Star Wars IP MMO it could have taken on those players but it wasn't...Its not even in line...ESO is standing in the line looking back at SWToR who didn't even purchase a ticket to the event.

 

Bioware has missed so many opportunities due to ignoring any feedback that is perceived as "difficult" to implement... Yeah some things are hard... don't stop.

 

Not only have they missed massive opportunities but at some point they will literally run out of people to run off...

Edited by Soljin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Off the top of my head I can't think of an expansion where Bioware did this

From a user experience perspective, you want to gather feedback at every step during prototyping and production

 

In order to achieve this

so that you don't spend hundreds of work hours on something that the customer (us) doesn't want.

 

 

Which brings up an interesting question, what DO they use PTS feedback for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We hope that they use it for something, but only the devs know what that is.

 

In the past it’s certainly not been to make any meaningful changes based on player feedback unless it’s something like strong holds.

 

Most of the time it seems they even ignore dedicated pts bug reports or balancing reports in pve encounters (that they ask for). And I don’t just means stuff reported a few weeks before they push out something live. No I mean reports that could be 3-4 months old and repeated over and over in feed back right up to pushing it live and they still ignore them.

 

So yeah, in all honesty, what do they use the pts and our feed back for when it appears it’s mostly ignored. One would hope this time round they are listening. But I’ve been burnt too many times by the devs to believe the BioLeopard can change its spots.

 

Prove me wrong dev team, I dare you to ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the past it’s certainly not been to make any meaningful changes based on player feedback unless it’s something like strong holds.

 

Most of the time it seems they even ignore dedicated pts bug reports or balancing reports in pve encounters (that they ask for). And I don’t just means stuff reported a few weeks before they push out something live. No I mean reports that could be 3-4 months old and repeated over and over in feed back right up to pushing it live and they still ignore them.

 

So yeah, in all honesty, what do they use the pts and our feed back for when it appears it’s mostly ignored. One would hope this time round they are listening. But I’ve been burnt too many times by the devs to believe the BioLeopard can change its spots.

 

Prove me wrong dev team, I dare you to ;)

 

It's possible they've taken feedback and tweaked some things. Sentinels kept their saber throw ability by default in the loadouts I tried on test which could be in response to the outcry over guardians losing theirs by default. For my part though there are no ways to tweak this new system. I can't swallow any of it. If they want to rewrite their combat system that would be ok with me. Heck, if they replaced all classes and combat and gave us Amazon's system I'd certainly be willing to try that (I'm not sure yet if Amazon's system is any good at high levels but it might be). I'd be open minded.

 

But just taking away abilities we've had since 2011 and feeding them back in menus which mean we lose many and spinning that as "now you have choices! be creative! express your individuality!" is... a parody of an expansion. It's like a used car salesman selling me a car with a missing wheel and saying "it's a new design! Do you want the missing wheel on the front or the back, customer's choice!". It's the laziest approach to "overhauling" classes that I've ever seen. The only thing they can say to make me happy is "Whups! Nevermind!" I don't see that happening. I was doing other things before the livestream that let us suppose that guardians would be able to use 2 sabers and didn't mention massive nerfs, I think it's time to get back to them and far far away from this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

100%

 

If they dumb down this game any more than they already have, its dead.

 

I understand the sentiment, but the reality is these changes aren't going to kill the game. Some vets will call it a day, fed up with One Nerf Too Many that impacts end-game in severe fashion, but that is a very small percentage of the playerbase. This game is not known for its combat, or its engine, or its end-game encounters, and so you don't have many players engaging in those activities. If there were, they wouldn't be making these changes. They would be making more of that content because it would make them money.

 

The reality of this game is that the engine is a joke, the original combat designers left long ago, and this game tends to copy mechanics established in other, more successful games. What keeps the game going is Space Barbie, hype from the movies and TV shows, and the fact that it's the only Star Wars MMO experience in town. None of these changes are going to change that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand the sentiment, but the reality is these changes aren't going to kill the game. Some vets will call it a day, fed up with One Nerf Too Many that impacts end-game in severe fashion, but that is a very small percentage of the playerbase. This game is not known for its combat, or its engine, or its end-game encounters, and so you don't have many players engaging in those activities. If there were, they wouldn't be making these changes. They would be making more of that content because it would make them money.

 

The reality of this game is that the engine is a joke, the original combat designers left long ago, and this game tends to copy mechanics established in other, more successful games. What keeps the game going is Space Barbie, hype from the movies and TV shows, and the fact that it's the only Star Wars MMO experience in town. None of these changes are going to change that.

 

That small percentage of the playerbase Tm is the one that writes guides or populates all the gf activities so the casual players have something to do besides story missions, if you only wanna play story this game doesnt warrant a monthly sub through the year, wanna know the people that have to sub to do activities?

 

Wanna know how many fps wouldve ended in a disband if I wasnt there to explain the new people mechanics or what to do just this past week? Any mmo needs veterans to keep the game alive specially one that has so much old content that is still (or was) relevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im calling it early.

 

These changes will be an unbridled mess. It won’t be the changes or the removal of iconic abilities that will make people leave. It will be how unbalanced pve encounters and pvp will be in the game.

 

Anyone who has played the game for a while and experienced Biowares rebalancing and expansions before will already know how badly they balance changes during an expansion when all they are doing is adding 5 levels and 1 new ability.

 

We already know how long it takes BioWare to fix any bugs or balance issues when they make the smallest of changes or add one new piece of content.

 

It took BioWare months to tweak the bugs and rebalance last year for one story flash point that was broken and they still didn’t get it right. Then they had to nerf the content as well because some people still couldn’t complete it.

 

Now multiply that by every flash point in the game, every operation, every uprising and every story chapter (you know, like those walker ones they still haven’t been able to balanced since last expansion!!) and imagine BioWare getting it done in 4 months. Anyone thinks the Bioware we all know can do that is delusional.

 

Hopefully now you can see how these coming changes are going to be a disaster. How can a dev team who can’t fix 1 flashpoint properly in 6 months going to rebalance the entire game around removing DCDs and other iconic and useful abilities that players need to clear content. And add new content and add 5 new levels. Are they going to give everyone a their own healing or tank bot in group content to make it easier. Are they going to down scale bosses health so much they melt.

 

I can already hear the forum screams of people who couldn’t complete the latest content because BioWare has made it too hard. And I can hear the screams of the veterans not being able to get past content they used to be able to. Either that or it will be so stupidly dumbed down that people will leave in disgust because it’s face roll easy.

 

Regardless, unless BioWare can rebalance the entire game around these massive changes in 4 months for 16 different advanced specs, IT will make people unsubscribe and leave. Which in turn will kill the game.

 

Edit: and I just want to make one thing clear. I’m not saying the current Devs are bad. I’m saying they don’t have the resources or time to implement this. EA has constantly taken resources and talent from the dev team over the years.

 

That’s why they don’t have time to squash bugs or properly balance new content for months at a time.

 

The 4 months they have remaining would be a struggle for a big team, but the swtor team isn’t big or even medium, it’s minuscule compared to other games. And to top it off, I believe most of them are still working remotely from home.

 

Even if they somehow launch with the changes and it’s semi balanced, they won’t have had time to properly bug test or squash the bugs. Then they go on holidays for 6 weeks like they always do and we won’t get any fixes till the end of February 2022.

 

That’s nearly 3 months of time where the game will have a bunch of possibly game breaking bugs and unbalanced combat issues.

That is what drives players from the game and makes them unsub.

 

If this launch was say March and it had problems, they could start working on it and patching it straight away and have it fixed in half the time.

 

But because it’s launching just before the holidays, we know from past record that mid to late February at the earliest is when they’ll start to patch problems.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im calling it early.

 

These changes will be an unbridled mess. It won’t be the changes or the removal of iconic abilities that will make people leave. It will be how unbalanced pve encounters and pvp will be in the game.

 

Anyone who has played the game for a while and experienced Biowares rebalancing and expansions before will already know how badly they balance changes during an expansion when all they are doing is adding 5 levels and 1 new ability.

 

We already know how long it takes BioWare to fix any bugs or balance issues when they make the smallest of changes or add one new piece of content.

 

It took BioWare months to tweak the bugs and rebalance last year for one story flash point that was broken and they still didn’t get it right. Then they had to nerf the content as well because some people still couldn’t complete it.

 

Now multiply that by every flash point in the game, every operation, every uprising and every story chapter (you know, like those walker ones they still haven’t been able to balanced since last expansion!!) and imagine BioWare getting it done in 4 months. Anyone thinks the Bioware we all know can do that is delusional.

 

Hopefully now you can see how these coming changes are going to be a disaster. How can a dev team who can’t fix 1 flashpoint properly in 6 months going to rebalance the entire game around removing DCDs and other iconic and useful abilities that players need to clear content. And add new content and add 5 new levels. Are they going to give everyone a their own healing or tank bot in group content to make it easier. Are they going to down scale bosses health so much they melt.

 

I can already hear the forum screams of people who couldn’t complete the latest content because BioWare has made it too hard. And I can hear the screams of the veterans not being able to get past content they used to be able to. Either that or it will be so stupidly dumbed down that people will will leave in disgust because it’s face roll easy.

 

Regardless, unless BioWare can rebalance the entire game around these massive changes in 4 months for 16 different advanced specs, IT will make people unsubscribe and leave. Which in turn will kill the game.

 

If the previous/current Dev team has not recruited additional assistance then I suspect you are pretty on the money. It's not direct shade on their ability or dedication it's throwing shade at the sad amount of resources available to the Dev team.

 

EA/Bioware just doesn't put any faith in this game...at all. they are just soaking it for what its worth while investing as little as possible... It's not even a secret.

 

It's why I only sub a few months out of the year...that's about how long it takes me to play out what they have invested in the game...between $15 and $30 bucks a year is what I feel SWToR has to offer in content...The game loop isn't enough to merit a full time sub.

 

It's a viscous cycle with this game...they put very little into the game, they get very little interest from the MMO community in return...That sums it up.

 

Based on precedent that's what will happen here...It's not what I am hoping for but I think you are right. They are looking to prune this game down to the most basic version possible and then set it out to pasture for its remaining time with even less resources required to keep it running.

Edited by Soljin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just enjoying the game in its current state until 7.0 drops. It seems pretty clear that the dev team is intent on stripping us of roughly half of our abilities in an effort to...I don't know what. Whatever the reason, I've tested it and I hate it, and I will be leaving. No biggie, there are plenty of other games out there. If Disney gets wise, they'll start from scratch with an entirely new mmo, but perhaps it's not in their financial interest to do so. Whatever the case, it was fun while it lasted. Edited by DsevenO
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just enjoying the game in its current state until 7.0 drops. It seems pretty clear that the dev team is intent on stripping us of roughly half of our abilities in an effort to...I don't know what. Whatever the reason, I've tested it and I hate it, and I will be leaving. No biggie, there are plenty of other games out there. If Disney gets wise, they'll start from scratch with an entirely new mmo, but perhaps it's not in their financial interest to do so. Whatever the case, it was fun while it lasted.

 

It just *********** sucks that for the 10th anniversary of the game we get this slap in the face, I was kinda hyped when they announced the decoupling of story/class but then they dropped this pts crap and my heart sank. Bah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand the sentiment, but the reality is these changes aren't going to kill the game. Some vets will call it a day, fed up with One Nerf Too Many that impacts end-game in severe fashion, but that is a very small percentage of the playerbase. This game is not known for its combat, or its engine, or its end-game encounters, and so you don't have many players engaging in those activities. If there were, they wouldn't be making these changes. They would be making more of that content because it would make them money.

 

The reality of this game is that the engine is a joke, the original combat designers left long ago, and this game tends to copy mechanics established in other, more successful games. What keeps the game going is Space Barbie, hype from the movies and TV shows, and the fact that it's the only Star Wars MMO experience in town. None of these changes are going to change that.

 

This is a bold series of claims considering that changes of this caliber are exactly, and I do mean exactly, what killed Star Wars Galaxies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a bold series of claims considering that changes of this caliber are exactly, and I do mean exactly, what killed Star Wars Galaxies.

 

SWG went on for years after its NGE. It just had a lot fewer players. But this change is closer to something Wow did which also very arguably cost Wow subscribers as well. But Wow didn't die either. I'm not sure that this particular game will survive another significant player exodus though.

 

For my part if my warriors and knights (I play a lot of those) are missing even half the abilities they are currently taking from us I will unquestionably be gone. According to parsely, with one or two exceptions, I use all of the abilities I have in every wz, every arena. I couldn't care less about being able to do dailies or run flashpoints with a healer - those things are already comically simple and would not hold my interest if this game didn't have PVP. PVP is also flawed but it has its moments. This game needs more things to manage in combat not less; if not cooldown buttons then something else. As was mentioned there are other games out there (and other hobbies to pursue).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SWG went on for years after its NGE. It just had a lot fewer players. But this change is closer to something Wow did which also very arguably cost Wow subscribers as well. But Wow didn't die either. I'm not sure that this particular game will survive another significant player exodus though.

 

For my part if my warriors and knights (I play a lot of those) are missing even half the abilities they are currently taking from us I will unquestionably be gone. According to parsely, with one or two exceptions, I use all of the abilities I have in every wz, every arena. I couldn't care less about being able to do dailies or run flashpoints with a healer - those things are already comically simple and would not hold my interest if this game didn't have PVP. PVP is also flawed but it has its moments. This game needs more things to manage in combat not less; if not cooldown buttons then something else. As was mentioned there are other games out there (and other hobbies to pursue).

 

You’d have to nuke WoW to get it to fail because they have such a large player and fan base. It’s not really the best example.

 

But the changes they made like the proposed ones here did cost them subs at the time. And when you consider they don’t have a free to play cash shop model to support, the lose of subs did hurt them. It’s why they walked back on them before they lost more players because they listened to people walking out the door (when they should have listened before).

 

The difference is swtor has a 10th the player base and Dev team supporting it. If we lost as many players as WoW did with these sorts of changes, we’d have negative players because it was more than the whole of the swtor player base.

On top of that, BioWare don’t have the resources or staff to walk back a change like this fast enough to stop players leaving.

 

And to be fair, it’s not that the swtor devs can’t balance or are bad devs, they’ve shown they can do great work. The problem is they are understaffed and under resourced. That is the concern of many players around these changes. We know from experience that Bioware won’t have the time to do this properly and with 4 months remaining, they won’t have time for proper testing or bug squashing.

 

If I was them, I’d put a hold on this whole pruning system and concentrate on getting out the expansion in December with the new content, new UI and the ability to swap advance specs as they built now.

Then they can spend 6-12 months testing out new builds with us on the pts without having worry about rebalancing the whole game and combat system while trying to get an expansion out the door in 4 months under what I can only imagine will be an exceptionally hard crunch (stressful overtime) for them.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SWG went on for years after its NGE. It just had a lot fewer players. But this change is closer to something Wow did which also very arguably cost Wow subscribers as well. But Wow didn't die either. I'm not sure that this particular game will survive another significant player exodus though.

 

For my part if my warriors and knights (I play a lot of those) are missing even half the abilities they are currently taking from us I will unquestionably be gone. According to parsely, with one or two exceptions, I use all of the abilities I have in every wz, every arena. I couldn't care less about being able to do dailies or run flashpoints with a healer - those things are already comically simple and would not hold my interest if this game didn't have PVP. PVP is also flawed but it has its moments. This game needs more things to manage in combat not less; if not cooldown buttons then something else. As was mentioned there are other games out there (and other hobbies to pursue).

 

I know exactly what you mean. It is insane to me that anyone out there thinks this is too many buttons; if it gets culled down much more I'll fall asleep trying to play the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know exactly what you mean. It is insane to me that anyone out there thinks this is too many buttons; if it gets culled down much more I'll fall asleep trying to play the game.

 

I saw this Reddit post today in r/swtor showing the buttons required for FFXIV

 

 

I think that sinks some of the arguments I’ve seen that pruning swtor abilities will give a more fun experience like FFXIV’s, which seems to be the FOTM for MMOs and has taken the WoW crown.

 

Bioware would be better off to copy FFXIV’s pathway to success than WoWs, FFXIV is continuing to grow more and more each year, while WoW is in a steady decline and swtor is dead by comparison.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw this Reddit post today in r/swtor showing the buttons required for FFXIV

 

 

I think that sinks some of the arguments I’ve seen that pruning swtor abilities will give a more fun experience like FFXIV’s, which seems to be the FOTM for MMOs and has taken the WoW crown.

 

Bioware would be better off to copy FFXIV’s pathway to success than WoWs, FFXIV is continuing to grow more and more each year, while WoW is in a steady decline and swtor is dead by comparison.

 

As a fervent FFXIV player myself, I will say one of the best things about it is that there is a class for just about every level of complexity. People who want to take a nap while they play can play Red Mage, Dancer, maybe Bard. People who are enjoy playing the piano can play Monk. People who are really good at recognizing patterns play Black Mage well. Etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw this Reddit post today in r/swtor showing the buttons required for FFXIV

 

 

I think that sinks some of the arguments I’ve seen that pruning swtor abilities will give a more fun experience like FFXIV’s, which seems to be the FOTM for MMOs and has taken the WoW crown.

 

Bioware would be better off to copy FFXIV’s pathway to success than WoWs, FFXIV is continuing to grow more and more each year, while WoW is in a steady decline and swtor is dead by comparison.

Not a good example as that Redditor choose the one class out of 18 that has too many buttons and the devs said they will be pruning when the next expansion comes out. Most of the classes have about 24 abilities that fill up two bars of 12 and then maybe 2 or 3 more but they are non-important buff skills, etc, basically not vital to the flow of combat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not a good example as that Redditor choose the one class out of 18 that has too many buttons and the devs said they will be pruning when the next expansion comes out. Most of the classes have about 24 abilities that fill up two bars of 12 and then maybe 2 or 3 more but they are non-important buff skills, etc, basically not vital to the flow of combat.

 

So the same as what swtor currently has on average.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the same as what swtor currently has on average.

 

Swtor does have a couple abilities more per class. On Jugg tank I've got three full bars, though this includes class buff, resource regen, medpac, adrenal and stim. Even if we take all of those abilities off (and that's being generous, I definitely would never take medpac and adrenal off my bars, Ideally I'd even have an extra slot for an offensive adrenal too), that still leaves me with 31 abilities on jugg tank. (Vengeance has one less, Rage one more).

 

Compare that to guardian on the PTS, there I have 25 abilities, excluding class buff, regen and items. That seems much closer to what Dractacula described than what's current live. Especially since I'd need at least two extra slots for medpac and adrenal, ideally a couple extra for a variant adrenal and maybe clicky relics. A similar thing seems to hold true for Marasents we've seen on PTS vs Live.

 

I'm not saying swtor should emulate the amount of abilities that FFXIV has. But if the assumption is that they should, it looks like PTS is going in the right direction, at least ability numberwise.

Edited by AdjeYo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of guides for setting up toolbars and keybinds for FFXIV.

 

I see way over 30 key binds on several character screens. This guy's talking about healers and tanks and dps:

 

 

My focus guardian ON THE PTS (edit) has 23 things bound right now, with introspection (rest), force might (class buff), his vehicle and heroic moment being clickies. Guard might as well be a clickie too but I've gotten used to it being keybound.

 

Things I add binds for: rocket boots, wz stim, wz medpac, non-wz medpac. And I have binds for actions like "target next ally" even though those don't show up on hotbars.

 

The main takeaway for/from me: If a game like this is going to be played for 2 - 50 hours, maybe it doesn't need a lot of keybinds/abilities. If a game is going to be played for months or years, a little complexity is a good thing; it keeps things interesting. Lots of keybinds hasn't hurt games bigger than this one.

 

There are lots of types of games out there. Some of them want you to keep track of your facing and things like block and dodge and targeting mechanics, taking cover, hiding in grass or behind rocks to shoot from, and quick swapping things like weapons to do different effects. This isn't one of those games, this one has abilities arranged on hotbars. Lowering the number of them just to satisfy an arbitrary "max" number that someone decided (after 10 years) seems short sighted.

Edited by Savej
Link to comment
Share on other sites

my issue isn't that there will be a reduction in the over number of abilities; it is the removal of defensive abilities and situational abilities that allow me to counter the tools of the other classes in pvp. with what is happening, every fight will just be analogous to hitting the targeting dummy.

 

we need more (any!) communication of the basic plan for all classes. are all the roots, snares, slows, mezs, soft stuns and hard stuns going away? will all the movement abilities from all classes be removed? while not fair or accurate; all I can do when reviewing the guardian and sentinel on the PTS is to compare the PTS builds against the other 6 class as they are on the Live servers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

we need more (any!) communication of the basic plan for all classes. are all the roots, snares, slows, mezs, soft stuns and hard stuns going away? will all the movement abilities from all classes be removed?

...

 

To the above I can say "no". There's been talk about freezing force (guardian snare) and sentinel's snare being merged with other abilities. The hard stun ability was accidentally removed from sentinels, it's being returned. Awe is an option, just not in the currently available loadouts. Blade blitz is available as is transcendence although transcendence may be nerfed a bit if the option to spec it to work on a cd isn't returned. Of course having these now will likely mean you've sacrificed other things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...