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Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening


captainbladejk

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You’re making several very large opinion based and unprovable assumptions here. If a particular mob or boss is immune to slows, the argument doesn’t apply in the first place, so why bring that up when it’s a nonpoint that has nothing to do with the previous conversation? There are plenty of mobs and even bosses that can be slowed, too many for me to list every single one of them here. If a mob needs to be kited or the goal is to kite the mob, all I care about is if the person can actually kite the mob. In my guild if we need to kite a mob, sometimes that role falls to one of our melee guys who is a Guardian/Jugg, because the guy is a veteran player that knows what to do and how to kite mobs. You can argue it would be more efficient if we used one of the ranged guys as that would be a fair and legitimate argument. However simply because it’s not “optimal” doesn’t preclude the possibility of a Guardian/Jugg kiting a mob.

 

Also I find it telling that you seem to think people choosing to play differently than you do must automatically mean they’re a troll. Folks employing abilities differently than you, or using different strategy than you doesn’t make one a troll, especially if both strategies actually work. The fact you would even trying to bring that point up stinks of gatekeeping and is nothing but a modern spin on the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.

Actions speak louder than words. They can say what they want all day long, but their actions are what matter. If they say one thing but do another, then it doesn’t matter what they said because that’s not what happened. They say they want us to use a wider variety of toolkit, yet are massively shrinking the toolkit. They say they want to give us more choice, yet are stealing choices from us. They say they want choices to be more meaningful for our story, yet are restricting the choices and abilities we get to use on our characters. No matter how you slice it, that is factually less substance. You disliking it doesn’t make it any less true.

This is completely unreasonable. This is a test patch, that they've made very clear isn't near ready to be shipped. If they put something on test server, and make it clear that a certain aspect (the choices) aren't ready for testing yet, so we'll be provided some basic loadouts for testing purposes, saying that choice is limited by the loadouts is a silly critique. It's something that isn't what they're proposing to change.

I don’t know where the communication breakdown has occurred but there’s definitely one somewhere. My issue has never been about the range as you’re trying to make it out to be. My issue is that this change isn’t adding anything new, it’s simply shifting the source of the slow from one place to another while stealing control over it proccing from me. By tying it to a rotational ability it’s been made so you either skip that ability, or you waste our slow. As to why they made it 10m instead of sticking with 8m, they had to make a choice. Do they do a special bit of coding to keep the slow at 8m, do they reduce Blade Storm to 8m, or do they just call it 10m and a day? Going with the 10m allows them to pretend they’ve done this massive upgrade with the ability when they haven’t. You’re still not exceeding the original specs of Blade Storm, and all you’re doing is stealing control from people by shifting the source of the slow. If you want to call it an “upgrade” congratulations you’ve found a technicality to cling to without addressing the other issues. Doing something new would be combining those 2 powers, and giving us a single target slow. If they combined the abilities together AND upped the range to say 20m or even the 30m at the same time, that would be something new, even if overpowered beyond belief. Yet by the overhyping they’re doing for the Blade Storm adjustment, you would think they actually did make it baseline 30m, but they didn’t. All they’ve done is potentially combine the two powers and steal my control over when the slow actually goes off. It’s no different than if World of Warcraft suddenly recombined interrupts into the abilities they were previously. It’s not an upgrade, but a massive downgrade and a token gesture.

You did manage to bring up the range "complaint" twice in your video and in your original post. Going so far as to call it a dead ability when outside of range, while neglecting to notice that Freezing Force has the exact same issue.

See above, the range was not my complaint but was used to illustrate how it’s not the upgrade they make it out to be. Otherwise saying “these other classes are losing abilities as well” doesn’t make it better and actually proves my original point they’re just wanting to nerf everyone for no valid reason. “Those guys lost abilities as well” isn’t an argument and actually makes things worse.

It is a fine argument as far as balance is concerned. If all class will have their toolkits limited by having to choose between some of their current abilities, it makes no sense to raise balance concerns with them facing classes as they are now.

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I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.

 

 

When pulling certain Commanders, those that drop flagship encryptions, a Guardian/Jugg tank will often "kite" it to a certain location, where the rest of the Ops group is.

 

This is also true of trash mobs in FPs and Ops, some bosses in those content types, and for trash mobs in Vet/MM Chapter content.

 

It is done with Saber Throw, and sometimes the Blade Blitz movement ability.

 

On an entirely different topic, I think this thread has devolved into something entirely unhelpful to BW. Valid concerns about classes and combat made in it likely won't be passed on, because of the nature of the back and forth going on.

Edited by arunav
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I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.

Arunav gave you some examples of times a Juggernaut can kite, and he described almost exactly to the t how our Jugg does it in my guild. Is it as efficient as a ranged, no probably not, but it gets the job done. Removing these powers the way they are denies us the ability to do what works for our group.

 

This is completely unreasonable. This is a test patch, that they've made very clear isn't near ready to be shipped. If they put something on test server, and make it clear that a certain aspect (the choices) aren't ready for testing yet, so we'll be provided some basic loadouts for testing purposes, saying that choice is limited by the loadouts is a silly critique. It's something that isn't what they're proposing to change.

I would refer you to JcDenton’s restaurant example above me: You’re at a restaurant. You order food. The waiter climbs onto the table, drops his pants, squats over a plate. “Hey why are you pooping on my plate!?” demands the reasonable person. “How do you know it’s poop smart guy, it isn’t even out yet.”

 

Or a different example. I’m sitting at a bar minding my own business. Some random dude walks in and pulls a knife before stabbing the dude next to me. Guy then raises the knife to me or another person. Do I really need to “wait and see” if dude is actually going to stab me and every other person in the bar, or do I tackle him and get the knife away from him?

 

They’ve told you that they’re taking abilities away from people and there will be less abilities, which will mean less choice. They’ve told you what they wanted to do with the Guardian is the same thing they want to do with all the classes. Their implementation has shown you there will be less choice. Short of seeing the future on a crystal ball, what more could you possibly need to see this is a negative thing for the game? They’ve said there would be less abilities and there are. So what do you expect me to believe, people saying “wait and see” or what I’m actually seeing?

 

You did manage to bring up the range "complaint" twice in your video and in your original post. Going so far as to call it a dead ability when outside of range, while neglecting to notice that Freezing Force has the exact same issue.

THAT’S THE ENTIRE POINT dude. They’re not adding anything new. All they’re doing is combining the Blade Storm and Freezing Force into one power with the new “upgrade” inheriting the strengths and weaknesses of the 2 separate abilities, which includes this limitation in range. All you’ve done is shift the source of the slow from one place to another. It’s not a new power, yet people are eating this stuff up like it’s something new and falling for the sleight of hand trick.

 

It is a fine argument as far as balance is concerned. If all class will have their toolkits limited by having to choose between some of their current abilities, it makes no sense to raise balance concerns with them facing classes as they are now.

What do you not get about THEY ASKED FOR THIS feedback based on what we had? They knew full well we wouldn’t have every single bit of information, but asked for the feedback regardless and that’s what they’ve gotten. You want to think my arguments are flawed, then debate the arguments, explain why you think they’re flawed and don’t work. I will explain why they do. That’s how debate works. If during the course of our debates a compelling argument is presented, then I will change my stance. So far that hasn’t happened. I want to hope this is all just us jumping the gun, but everything so far says it’s not.

 

With that said, do you have any other objections to any point I have raised, or do you want to keep going in circles? If you have legitimate objections by all means lets hear them, otherwise I’m getting off this merry go round.

Edited by captainbladejk
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^^^ This.

 

Nothing we do or say will change ANYTHING.

 

That's not been my experience.

 

The Developers are trying to answer a question about DCD's in SWTOR. They're approach is seriously flawed... So providing feedback, as was requested, and help shape how BIOWARE answers that question is both important and necessary.

 

What won't happen is that BIOWARE simply does a 180 and gives up on attempting to answer this question - so in that, nothing anyone says about leaving everything as is, will change their move to answer it - anyone who thinks otherwise is being delusional.

 

So dissuading them from attempting to answer this question is not the point - it is to help shape the answer, from the people who actually play the game - us.

 

In this way, these threads and these posts are important.

 

My personal experience has been posts do matter, and the Devs do listen.

Edited by Kass
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The Developers are trying to answer a question about DCD's in SWTOR. They're approach is seriously flawed... So providing feedback, as was requested, and help shape how BIOWARE answers that question is both important and necessary.

 

Actually, if you read their post closely you find that what they're supposedly trying to address is that some players find PvP to be slow paced and annoying, and that some players find NiM / HM raids to be too easy, mostly because in past expacs those raids were nerfed because after driving away the core of the raiding community with glacially slow content release schedules and unpopular class and gearing changes the remaining raider population needed some help in getting through content with smaller less experienced rosters of players.

 

Those are real problems. It might be good for SWTOR if the devs solved them.

 

They're redoing class mechanics almost from scratch and pruning DCDs and high impact abilities instead.

 

It's the equivalent of having a car with a transmission that needs to be rebuilt, but since you don't feel like doing a transmission rebuild you do a full suspension replacement instead. Do it right, and it might be an improvement, do it wrong and it creates a host of new problems. Either way, the transmission still doesn't shift well.

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Actually, if you read their post closely you find that what they're supposedly trying to address is that some players find PvP to be slow paced and annoying, and that some players find NiM / HM raids to be too easy, mostly because in past expacs those raids were nerfed because after driving away the core of the raiding community with glacially slow content release schedules and unpopular class and gearing changes the remaining raider population needed some help in getting through content with smaller less experienced rosters of players.

 

Those are real problems. It might be good for SWTOR if the devs solved them.

 

They're redoing class mechanics almost from scratch and pruning DCDs and high impact abilities instead.

 

It's the equivalent of having a car with a transmission that needs to be rebuilt, but since you don't feel like doing a transmission rebuild you do a full suspension replacement instead. Do it right, and it might be an improvement, do it wrong and it creates a host of new problems. Either way, the transmission still doesn't shift well.

 

Not sure how were not saying the same thing?

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That's not been my experience.

 

The Developers are trying to answer a question about DCD's in SWTOR. They're approach is seriously flawed... So providing feedback, as was requested, and help shape how BIOWARE answers that question is both important and necessary.

 

What won't happen is that BIOWARE simply does a 180 and gives up on attempting to answer this question - so in that, nothing anyone says about leaving everything as is, will change their move to answer it - anyone who thinks otherwise is being delusional.

 

So dissuading them from attempting to answer this question is not the point - it is to help shape the answer, from the people who actually play the game - us.

 

In this way, these threads and these posts are important.

 

My personal experience has been posts do matter, and the Devs do listen.

 

You have not bee on the forums much or not part of closed PTS testing. This company has many, many instance of being told things are broken, or need tweaked, or are just absolutely horrendous...... and they end up in the live game anyway.

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You have not bee on the forums much or not part of closed PTS testing. This company has many, many instance of being told things are broken, or need tweaked, or are just absolutely horrendous...... and they end up in the live game anyway.

 

I played these forums the day they went live... so don't try to measure your mynock against mine pal.

 

Announcement of LotS got me excited enough to come on the forums again, but read the legacy signature and think twice before you mouth off.

 

#30022 - OG Player :d_cool:

Edited by Kass
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I played these forums the day they went live... so don't try to measure your mynock against mine pal.

 

Announcement of LotS got me excited enough to come on the forums again, but read the legacy signature and think twice before you mouth off.

 

#30022 - OG Player :d_cool:

 

I don't care how OG you are. BW has been told about many things in PTS build and it never changes.

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Memes and Bantha Poodo... lol, who raised these kids? :This generation comes across as well rounded as a turnip that just fell off a farmers truck - go polish your posting skillz :D_embarrassed :

 

Best Example of Bioware listening (My Suggestion Btw):

 

Told Bioware that Darkside I "Golden Eyes" effect window was too small when it used to be a window of 17 or 18K - 19,999 Darkside I points.

 

They lowered it to a window of 4000 Darkside I points to 19,999 Darkside I points!

 

Sorry not Sorry you're not feeling validated. But let me learn you something 4%er - Now just because the request doesn't make it into the Patch schedule, gets lost due to Developer turn-over, or the cost-vs-benefit reward for investing in the change - Ex. Malgus Reborn Chestpiece: The thing has a massive cut-scene bug with its cape physics - but will it ever get patched, probably not (and I hate this bug because I see it ALL THE TIME) - but not because they don't know it exists, but because there's only so much that can be squeezed into a Patch (and there are usually bigger Bugs and bigger priorities).

 

But just because that doesn't get patched, does not equate to "they don't listen" chicken little the sky is falling!!

 

They do listen, and have made changes where and when they can - and particularly where their development path and the suggestion line up well enough to be 'doable'.

 

So if you want to whine and belly ache, and promote the lie that 'they never listen to us', then you keep flexing like that and have fun winding your self out of breath in the process.

 

Bioware does listen, but their not in business to validate you emotionally and address your small mynock energy. :csw_jabbapet:

Edited by Kass
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Memes and Bantha Poodo... lol, who raised these kids? :This generation comes across as well rounded as a turnip that just fell off a farmers truck - go polish your posting skillz :D_embarrassed :

 

Best Example of Bioware listening (My Suggestion Btw):

 

Told Bioware that Darkside I "Golden Eyes" effect window was too small when it used to be a window of 17 or 18K - 19,999 Darkside I points.

 

They lowered it to a window of 4000 Darkside I points to 19,999 Darkside I points!

 

Sorry not Sorry you're not feeling validated. But let me learn you something 4%er - Now just because the request doesn't make it into the Patch schedule, gets lost due to Developer turn-over, or the cost-vs-benefit reward for investing in the change - Ex. Malgus Reborn Chestpiece: The thing has a massive cut-scene bug with its cape physics - but will it ever get patched, probably not (and I hate this bug because I see it ALL THE TIME) - but not because they don't know it exists, but because there's only so much that can be squeezed into a Patch (and there are usually bigger Bugs and bigger priorities).

 

But just because that doesn't get patched, does not equate to "they don't listen" chicken little the sky is falling!!

 

They do listen, and have made changes where and when they can - and particularly where their development path and the suggestion line up well enough to be 'doable'.

 

So if you want to whine and belly ache, and promote the lie that 'they never listen to us', then you keep flexing like that and have fun winding your self out of breath in the process.

 

Bioware does listen, but their not in business to validate you emotionally and address your small mynock energy. :csw_jabbapet:

 

HAHAH. I'm talking bout ops mechanics (remember how bad Bulo SM was at the start?)... how the gearing of CXP was a mess... REAL issues.

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HAHAH. I'm talking bout ops mechanics (remember how bad Bulo SM was at the start?)... how the gearing of CXP was a mess... REAL issues.

 

Thanks for confirming, that over the 10 year life of SWTOR, you've not affected the game in any meaningful way.

 

I now understand your original response post - you really have never been listened to, and have a consistent track record of failure in gaining any attention from Bioware to your bug reports, and have completely wasted your time in participating in PTS.

 

Cheers. :d_wink:

Edited by Kass
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Neither have you lol.

 

More bad posting.

 

See previous post about Darkside I

 

And thank you for following the thread so closely. I hope you will learn valuable lessons on how to actually craft quality posts that will gain the desired attention and emotional validation you're craving.

 

:d_cool:

Edited by Kass
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More bad posting.

 

See previous post about Darkside I

 

And thank you for following the thread so closely. I hope you will learn valuable lessons on how to actually craft quality posts that will gain the desired attention and emotional validation you're craving.

 

:d_cool:

/bowtoyourgreatness

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