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75 PVP - Group by valor


randalthorr

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Valor isn't the way. What the devs need to do is just make this Galactic season tied to when you hit conquest - basically, do whatever the heck you want to hit conquest, and boom you have your GS done for the daily/weekly. Forcing folks into game content they do not wish to do is not the way to do it, it's never worked and the devs never learn.

 

This will then keep folks out of PVP and other aspects of the game that they do NOT want to do.

 

But your missing the point of GS. It’s main goal is to buff group content that is losing players. So the design is to encourage or coerce people into playing content they don’t like or don’t usually play.

 

The reason is the game is bleeding players again because BioWare have made some poor mistakes towards pvp the last 12-18 months. That and the lack of more new playable content (than the tiny bit we get), plus continuously bug riddled patches or pvp maps is causing another exodus of players.

 

People are rightly sick of the broken bugs not being fixed or made worse when it comes to arena maps. The Desync didn’t get better in HB, it’s only gotten worse. The lock out and win requirements drove lots of players away too. It’s why they’ve had to merge the lower brackets into one. But that’s just made even less people want to play lowbie pvp before lvl 40. Which in turn drives more players from the game.

 

BioWare have made one blunder after another with pvp the last 18 months. They either don’t have the talent, money or inclination to really fix pvp. And while ever they keep adding bandaids, pvp keeps losing players. That’s why BioWare are coercing players into pvp and other group content they wouldn’t usually play. If they didn’t, they’d have to start merging servers again or some content would become less playable, which makes more people leave (creating a worse snowball affect than now).

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You're saying that lowbie pvp was merged with midbie for the sole reason that somehow the win requirement on the daily and weekly made people stop pvping, and provide no evidence,

.

 

I'm saying if you spent ANY time on the forum, you would see the effect the win only has had on pvp, and if you spent any time in pvp, you would see since the win only came in, pvp took a nose dive. So logically, the two have to be linked.

The evidence is these forums, and how they exploded after the announcement, and how the queues died.

 

6.0 is probably the best alt friendly gearing system we've had, I've more toons maxed now than ever, without even trying.

 

As for GSF, again, you are so far out of field, it's in a different ball park. GSF popped regularly before GS, because it is the best, easiest CQ available. With the advent of GS, it's become even more viable for people to do. For a lot of people doing it, it's about CQ/GS points, not fun, but saying that some people have turned out to actually like it.

Personally I don't, but it's easy, quick, and I don't have to be any good. AND I still get huge CQ points, and can complete the daily/weeklies.

 

As for a chore, everything you do, that you don't enjoy, can be a chore, but as chores go, gsf is darn easy.

 

/snip.

 

Not just pvp, there's been a decline in every area, if it hadn't been for the steam launch, this game would have been in a worse position than it is. People are still leaving, or cancelling their subs, and just going preff. Several people on the forums who have had multiple subs, have cancelled all of them, bar one main, including me, the only reason this one is still active is that I'm holding on to a slim hope, that the tenth anniversary will be something good. After that, it will depend on the other games I'm playing, how well I get on, in them, and if they can ween me off my swtor addiction.

Edited by DarkTergon
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I'm saying if you spent ANY time on the forum, you would see the effect the win only has had on pvp, and if you spent any time in pvp, you would see since the win only came in, pvp took a nose dive. So logically, the two have to be linked.

The evidence is these forums, and how they exploded after the announcement, and how the queues died.

 

6.0 is probably the best alt friendly gearing system we've had, I've more toons maxed now than ever, without even trying.

 

As for GSF, again, you are so far out of field, it's in a different ball park. GSF popped regularly before GS, because it is the best, easiest CQ available. With the advent of GS, it's become even more viable for people to do. For a lot of people doing it, it's about CQ/GS points, not fun, but saying that some people have turned out to actually like it.

Personally I don't, but it's easy, quick, and I don't have to be any good. AND I still get huge CQ points, and can complete the daily/weeklies.

 

As for a chore, everything you do, that you don't enjoy, can be a chore, but as chores go, gsf is darn easy.

 

 

1) The forum isn't SWTOR, and you can't see the effects of anything in the forum, only the opinions and perceptions of effects. It's just the same 5 extremely opinionated and loud people talking to themselves. And you've been talking to yourselves for so long that your reality is limited to your own boxed in opinions. A million posts from one person about how they don't like the win requirement isn't a million opinions, it's one opinion.

 

2) Exactly. You have more toons maxed now than ever. Which speaks to the actual point of there being less people at lower levels. As I stated clearly, 6.0 isn't alt friendly, specifically towards lower level, non max level characters. Hence lowbies and midbies were combined. But gaslighting is part of your forum game, right?

 

3) I've been in que for an hour, before Galactic Seasons was a thing, waiting for Starfighter to pop. Primetime. It's never been a good choice for conquest points, for exactly that reason, until recently with Galactic Seasons making it pop. So now you're doing it, even though you don't like it, and even though you're not good at it and probably will never be. You're choosing to dilute the gaming experience of people who actually enjoy it. From your perspective, that's a win/win, and from my perspective that's a lose/lose, but that's simply because I care more about the sustainability of SWTOR as a whole, and you care about easy conquest points.

 

I'm not going to subscribe to your Hammer Station mentality. Things need to be fun first, worth doing without rewards, and then adding in rewards for doing well. Designing things "Rewards first, fun second, maybe" is a slow death at best. Which is exactly why SWTOR and PVP in particular is where it is today.

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I mean, I’m definitely not saying make the rewards for winning and losing equal to each other. But there should be something more than a hearty middle finger given in situations where people try and don’t win. Look at it this way: if you do everything right, put in all the effort, and spend hours actually trying, only to get the same reward as someone who goes afk, and that reward is piss poor, how much longer are you going to try?

 

Besides, if there are people who are only doing it for rewards, giving them those rewards faster gets them out of the queue faster.

 

The fact is, there are multiple problems with PvP as it stands, and they’ve been pointed out many, many times by people smarter and more experienced than me. The ‘win-only’ reward requirement is a part of it, and it needs to go.

 

The faster you give losers the rewards, the more characters they're going to log into to lose again and dilute the pvp experience. The more efficient they are at getting the rewards just gives them more incentive to lose. Thank god Galactic Seasons is legacy based and not character based, because your little idea of giving a mugger your wallet without resistance thinking he'll stop mugging people is pretty dangerous, and just leads the mugger to thinking he's entitled to people's wallets.

 

I'm not going to look at it your way, with the afker and the person legit trying to win a match, because if all the incentives for afking or throwing a match were removed, there would almost never be any afkers or throwers. The legit player can try again, but if the legit player isn't having fun, and is only in it for the rewards, they need to be playing something else. The real issue here is the entitlement of someone who doesn't really enjoy pvping expecting to get their pvp dailies done. If you enjoy pvp, then getting your dailies done probably happens naturally, and if you happen to have a bad day and don't get them done, then that's the reality of playing a game where the outcome isn't guaranteed.

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1) The forum isn't SWTOR, and you can't see the effects of anything in the forum, only the opinions and perceptions of effects.

 

it's an indication , but you also conveniently forgot about the part of queue pops not happening, you see I put them both together.

 

You're obviously going to keep ignoring that, and still try to put out what you think is the 'truth' , so rather than let this thread devolve I'll stop here. :cool:

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No matter how good an idea is, anything that would require "coding" to implement is just to far above the current teams capabilities and knowledge.

 

No greater truth has been stated on the Star Wars Forums than this.

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As I stated clearly, 6.0 isn't alt friendly, specifically towards lower level, non max level characters. Hence lowbies and midbies were combined. But gaslighting is part of your forum game, right?

 

How did you come to the conclusion that 6.0 is Alt unfriendly for lower lvl players? I don’t understand your reasoning?

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How did you come to the conclusion that 6.0 is Alt unfriendly for lower lvl players? I don’t understand your reasoning?

 

Vertical progression systems means a toon is done gearing at the highest tier. Hence time for lowbie alts.

 

Horizontal progression systems means gearing to the highest tier, and then collecting multiple gearsets. By it's very nature it's more work. Max level toons in your legacy can help, but lower level toons generally can't. Then add in the RNG of the mod/enhancement subtypes, and how you can't buy the specific ones you want.

 

I personally like the gearing in 6.0 (not including the rng) but it's pretty easy to see that a player in 6.0 is going to take longer to gear up that first toon in 6.0 compared to other expansions. Since your main toon can actually helps to gear your other maxed level toons, that's more motive to play your main, and then gear your other maxed characters and then play those.

 

I have a hard time understanding why you think 6.0 would be alt friendly to lowbie characters in this context.

 

You and I aren't feeling that now, since it's been almost 2 years of 6.0, but the average, casual player, or newer player certainly is going to be effected.

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But your missing the point of GS. It’s main goal is to buff group content that is losing players. So the design is to encourage or coerce people into playing content they don’t like or don’t usually play.

 

The reason is the game is bleeding players again because BioWare have made some poor mistakes towards pvp the last 12-18 months. That and the lack of more new playable content (than the tiny bit we get), plus continuously bug riddled patches or pvp maps is causing another exodus of players.

 

People are rightly sick of the broken bugs not being fixed or made worse when it comes to arena maps. The Desync didn’t get better in HB, it’s only gotten worse. The lock out and win requirements drove lots of players away too. It’s why they’ve had to merge the lower brackets into one. But that’s just made even less people want to play lowbie pvp before lvl 40. Which in turn drives more players from the game.

 

BioWare have made one blunder after another with pvp the last 18 months. They either don’t have the talent, money or inclination to really fix pvp. And while ever they keep adding bandaids, pvp keeps losing players. That’s why BioWare are coercing players into pvp and other group content they wouldn’t usually play. If they didn’t, they’d have to start merging servers again or some content would become less playable, which makes more people leave (creating a worse snowball affect than now).

 

Forcing new players into content is not a fix. And if there are so many bugs then the dev team should focus on that, instead of doing old poorly rehashed ideas of forcing unwanted content.

Edited by Ibokagain
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Forcing new players into content is not a fix. And if there are so many bugs then the dev team should focus on that, instead of doing old poorly rehashed ideas of forcing unwanted content.

 

This is rather subjective. Assuming you think your opinion is correct, means mine is also! YES! Which means that I am thinking the exact opposite! I truly enjoy the “new player” speculation! What else can you inform us about them! Can’t wait!

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Forcing new players into content is not a fix. And if there are so many bugs then the dev team should focus on that, instead of doing old poorly rehashed ideas of forcing unwanted content.

 

I don’t disagree that it’s the best solution. The best would be for BioWare to fix the game and lure old players or new player back into the game. But if BioWare don’t encourage players into pvp and other content, they will need to do mergers again or much will be unplayable or wait times will be unacceptable.

 

They should also be incentivise people to win more with more and better pvp rewards. Half the problems (besides lack of skills or people not wanting to play that pvp) are people who death match or scoreboard preen instead of trying to win. If BioWare gave those people a “real” incentive to win more, that would make it 50% better by itself. Because it’s not just those who don’t want to be there causing bad matches, it’s those that don’t try and win. And that was going on for a long, long time before GS was added.

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Vertical progression systems means a toon is done gearing at the highest tier. Hence time for lowbie alts.

 

Horizontal progression systems means gearing to the highest tier, and then collecting multiple gearsets. By it's very nature it's more work. Max level toons in your legacy can help, but lower level toons generally can't. Then add in the RNG of the mod/enhancement subtypes, and how you can't buy the specific ones you want.

 

I personally like the gearing in 6.0 (not including the rng) but it's pretty easy to see that a player in 6.0 is going to take longer to gear up that first toon in 6.0 compared to other expansions. Since your main toon can actually helps to gear your other maxed level toons, that's more motive to play your main, and then gear your other maxed characters and then play those.

 

I have a hard time understanding why you think 6.0 would be alt friendly to lowbie characters in this context.

 

You and I aren't feeling that now, since it's been almost 2 years of 6.0, but the average, casual player, or newer player certainly is going to be effected.

 

I wouldn’t call that Alt unfriendly at all, not even for lowbie characters. But BioWare could incentivise it more for lowbie pvp lvling up if the gave tech frags as part of the reward for winning lowbie pvp and completing dailies / weeklies. Which has been suggested numerous times since they added tech frags.

 

Really, the only viable way forward with lowbie pvp with its combined bracket is for BioWare to give all lowbie bracket players the same gear, utilities and abilities for their classes up to lvl 74. If BioWare doesn’t do that soon, the only people who will be playing lowbie bracket will be those doing GS and that’s it.

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I wouldn’t call that Alt unfriendly at all, not even for lowbie characters. But BioWare could incentivise it more for lowbie pvp lvling up if the gave tech frags as part of the reward for winning lowbie pvp and completing dailies / weeklies. Which has been suggested numerous times since they added tech frags.

 

Really, the only viable way forward with lowbie pvp with its combined bracket is for BioWare to give all lowbie bracket players the same gear, utilities and abilities for their classes up to lvl 74. If BioWare doesn’t do that soon, the only people who will be playing lowbie bracket will be those doing GS and that’s it.

 

So lets apply your logic to "draconian pvp win requirements". Setting aside the "fun" aspect, there's little reason or motive really to pvp in lowbies. (Before Galactic Seasons) Yet there's actually more reason to play pvp at 75, and lose, because at least you're helping your legacy to gear up at max level.

 

You repeatedly claim how "unfriendly" the win requirements are for the pvp dailies/weeklies are at 75, and yet players get far more from pvping and not completing those missions than a lowbie character does for WINNING a pvp match and getting their pvp missions done. So in your eyes, the "unfriendly" system is the one that actually gives you stuff, and the "friendly" system is what gives you next to nothing.

 

That's what I call Hypocrisy, friend, with a capital H. I also call the 6.0 gearing system that supports that as "Lowbie Alt Unfriendly".

 

All the years from April 2013 (2.0) to October 2016 (4.7) lowbie alts could help gear up maxxed toons via storing, and even cheezing the comm system via pvp. Then they decided to use SWTOR as an experiment for RNG loot crates (5.0) in order to export that gearing system to other games (Anthem), and lowbies took a nose dive in the pvp community.

 

Low level gear is just as good, or close enough, to any other gear in lowbies, with the exception of maybe some Ossus set bonus gear that some unleveled alts have kicking around. Not understanding your mentioning of gear. I'll agree with you on the abilities and talent discrepancies between level 15s and level 70s, but there's no way to implement that smoothly without giving lower level alts time to select talents and keybind abilities for 20 minutes before each match.

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reg pvp rewards are bad, really bad, vis-a-vis the only comparable pug mode: vet FPs.

 

so saying that reg pvp rewards are worlds better than the garbage 10-74 rewards is like saying poop is better than diarrhea.

 

as for your disagreement with trixxie over...w/e it is you're arguing, I have no comment. but you get more rewards for far less work in vet FPs than reg WZs (unless by some miracle you get all arenas and win them in 2 rounds for like 10 straight pops).

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so saying that reg pvp rewards are worlds better than the garbage 10-74 rewards is like saying poop is better than diarrhea.

 

That was colorful :D

 

But you're right. The rewards for PvP regs are garbage. It's kinda interesting that gs has a PvP component (which I do not do because I could not care less) to incentivize people to do regs. It suggests to me that this is a two-fold solution to a serious exodus of players in PvP. Improve rewards in a round-about way with gs, and get people into regs with gs.

 

Seems to me that more players would join by removing deserter debuff, and/or improve rewards AND restore losses count for progress. Trixxie's thread on PvP suggestions was criminally ignored by bioware.

 

Random thoughts. I cannot be bothered to form a cogent argument this evening.

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as for your disagreement with trixxie over...w/e it is you're arguing, I have no comment. but you get more rewards for far less work in vet FPs than reg WZs (unless by some miracle you get all arenas and win them in 2 rounds for like 10 straight pops).

 

Yeah even I’m not sure what he’s arguing about as I haven’t overly disagreed with much of what he’s said. I just asked for clarification on something and he’s gone off

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This isn't the GS forum, and this isn't about GS. If you have the choice between waiting 1-2 hours for a GS pop, vs a 10 min pop with participation awards, then by all means, reward the losers.

 

But this is the PVP forum. The choice is a 1-3 minute pop, with losers getting rewarded, or a 5-10 minute pop that might actually have a chance at being a fun game. I'll take the wait, thank you very much.

 

"I need to consider...I need to realise....etc, ect." No, I really don't. I know that the major issue with pvp losing people over time, its the lack of quality matches. Loser incentives turn a fun activity into a chore, and the gamer mentality proves that. They'd rather be miserable in Hammer Station than play the rest of the game. Same thing with losing in warzones. They haven't figured out that Galactic Seasons is a joke, it's just a chore that they're going to do regardless. Happened before in 2.0/3.0 when people would lose as quickly as possible for comms, to deconstruct implants and relics for rare mats to put on the GTN. It will happen every time Bioware gives them a reason for losing a warzone.

 

You give players a reason to lose, and wow, what a shock, they lose, on purpose, and as quickly as possible.

 

You are totally missing the point.

 

The win only feature was added before GS and it didn’t do anything to make people play to win more. So it’s already been proven not to work.

 

All it did was drive more people from the game so that Bioware had to add GS and coercion to get enough people playing pvp again.

 

And you want to negate that by adding a win requirement again that’s already shown it doesn’t make people play to win, it just makes them stop caring and they stop pvping or they DM more.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

I’ll just add this too. This was said by ChrisS on Discord when someone suggested adding GS achievements for ranked

 

Different target audience. GS is broad, encouraging folks to dip their toe in and trying out a mode they may never have tried otherwise. Also the rewards aren't power/materials that impact the economy or PvP loop for those that mostly play PvP.”

 

They wouldn’t need to add GS to “encourage folks” to play pvp if they hadn’t driven pvpers from the game with win only requirements and lockouts in regs. Bioware are playing catch-up and adding bandaids because they don’t have a proper strategy for pvp and they won’t act fast to make changes if they make mistakes or tweak systems to make them work.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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A lot has to do with the spec, but also what gear set and tactical you choose for ranked. You could try switching to Rage Jugg and give it a go with Force Bound set and Grit Teeth tactical.

 

That's the whole Pros vs Joes issue. How many casual players are going to change their proficiency, get new gear and fully mod it out (including augments) and buy and change their tactical just to run a few warzones?

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That's the whole Pros vs Joes issue. How many casual players are going to change their proficiency, get new gear and fully mod it out (including augments) and buy and change their tactical just to run a few warzones?

 

But my quote you’re answering was about ranked and not regs (totally different situation).

 

When you go into ranked there is an expectation that you understand gearing and your class. If you are good enough, you can overcome spec deficiencies in regs.

 

But if you are in ranked, you better be the top 1% if you wanna overcome some class deficiencies vs players who are as good or better than you.

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When you go into ranked there is an expectation that you understand gearing and your class.

 

Screenshotted for the next time some bot gets globalled in ranked while wearing no set bonus or tactical and then comes to the forums complaining about toxicity.

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Use the nimbe master set bonus in 4 dps ranked games. If you use your DCDs correctly, using ED first, and then the rest of your cds, you can and should be able to get to a second ED. Make sure to run to Africa when you use Saber Ward. Hide in a corner and out of combat heal if no one chases you. If you get a second ED, you will win the game 90% of the time.

 

:rod_eyes_p:

 

Will give it a try!

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You are totally missing the point.

 

The win only feature was added before GS and it didn’t do anything to make people play to win more. So it’s already been proven not to work.

 

All it did was drive more people from the game so that Bioware had to add GS and coercion to get enough people playing pvp again.

 

And you want to negate that by adding a win requirement again that’s already shown it doesn’t make people play to win, it just makes them stop caring and they stop pvping or they DM more.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

I’ll just add this too. This was said by ChrisS on Discord when someone suggested adding GS achievements for ranked

 

Different target audience. GS is broad, encouraging folks to dip their toe in and trying out a mode they may never have tried otherwise. Also the rewards aren't power/materials that impact the economy or PvP loop for those that mostly play PvP.”

 

They wouldn’t need to add GS to “encourage folks” to play pvp if they hadn’t driven pvpers from the game with win only requirements and lockouts in regs. Bioware are playing catch-up and adding bandaids because they don’t have a proper strategy for pvp and they won’t act fast to make changes if they make mistakes or tweak systems to make them work.

 

Almost every match before the win requirement was extremely lopsided, even at max level. Most huttballs ended up 6-0 because after 1 score the opposing teams would give up. Hypergates would end with scores like 0 vs 700. The win requirement, while slowing down ques, made for better matches, especially with the lockout timer.

 

The reason Bioware hasn't listened to your 300 posts on the subject is because they have the analytics.

 

Is it a perfect system? No. Is it better than every match being lopsided? Yes. Do I trust Bioware to come up with a better system to reward effort in pvp? No.

 

Now Galactic Seasons has complicated the situation, by once again encouraging losing. I'm all for getting new people to try and pvp, but Galactic Seasons is less of an invitation for fun and more like a punch card at a factory.

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