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Solo Ranked Rating is Poorly Designed

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Solo Ranked Rating is Poorly Designed

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.24.2021 , 06:45 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Some degree of adaptability is good, but I promise you this mindset is losing you games. You've played ranked for two months and already think you know better than the experienced players calling strats for you. That's a good recipe for losing games that you should be winning. If you really think that someone is making a bad call, you should point that out to them in chat before the round starts, don't just do your own thing during the round. It's much better for everyone to be on the same page, even if it's the wrong page, than for everyone to do whatever they feel like.



This is correct. Swtor is very easy compared to most other competitive online games, though I imagine it's comparable to other mmos.



This is just nonsense and not at all what I said. I've already explained it, but I can do so again. In solo ranked, the outcome of many games is out of your control. Sometimes you get throwers or leavers, sometimes someone just makes a bad mistake. Sometimes you're heavily outcomped, etc. So yes, even the best players in the game lose games for those reasons, and it has nothing to do with their skill.

These outside factors even out over time, as they work against you sometimes and for you other times. You are the remaining constant, meaning once you remove all those matches where you can't affect the outcome, you are left with the ones in which you can affect the outcome. Those are the matches where good players play well and win, and how they get reliably high elos season after season. It's why the good players get top 3s and golds season after season. If it was truly as random as you say it is, that wouldn't be possible.

Your complaints are common for someone who thinks they're much better than they are, but in reality still has a long way to go to improve. There's no shame in not being a gold caliber player, especially only 2 months in. You should just accept it and work to improve rather than blaming the system.



I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it's very different, and many people who enjoy 4v4 arenas do not enjoy 1v1s. One cannot replace the other because the audience is not the same.
You've again said nothing of the mechanics or offered a defense of the current systems, even so far as agreeing that there are problems with the accuracy of the system by agreeing with some of my points. I also only mentioned 1 of my characters, so your sample is wrong to begin with I have 7 ranked characters, which isn't much, all with varying ratings and ratios, some better than others. All you've said is that it averages out over, what? 100 or 200 games? Whats the number?

The bigger question is, who cares? The question is is it fun? I say no, 4v4's that are a coin toss are not fun to deal with, and over time players quit, hence why our population is so low. Other games enable players to win no matter how many other opponents there are. You can't do a quint kill in this like you can in an FPS or TPS or even some Hybrid melee games like For Honor, Chivalry, or Mordhau. As much as I hate Mordhau, I will give that you can do a lot for yourself and rely on no one else. There is no reasons MMO's need to be stuck in this archaic design of gameplay. I sit in queue and just hope the only "constant" I have to worry about is myself and not some troll. The fact that everyone deals with it shows the system doesn't make it fun for people. It's fun vampirism.

If you're just going to throw conjecture and vapid insults at me, take your own advice and move on. I'm waiting for an argument with some reason beyond, it just averages out. Tons of good players have toons stuck in bad ratings due to a string of bad losses. They just roll a toon. Most people won't do that and they shouldn't have to.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.25.2021 , 06:20 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
You've again said nothing of the mechanics or offered a defense of the current systems, even so far as agreeing that there are problems with the accuracy of the system by agreeing with some of my points. I also only mentioned 1 of my characters, so your sample is wrong to begin with I have 7 ranked characters, which isn't much, all with varying ratings and ratios, some better than others. All you've said is that it averages out over, what? 100 or 200 games? Whats the number?
Good players get higher elo than bad players. And they do it season after season. That fact alone proves that the system works. I also explained to you exactly why that is the case. Go read my previous posts again if you're having trouble comprehending them.

And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
The bigger question is, who cares? The question is is it fun? I say no,
If it's not fun for you, then don't play it... The fact that you personally don't find it fun has nothing whatsoever to do with its actual quality.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
4v4's that are a coin toss are not fun to deal with
Only a small percentage of solo ranked games are actually a coin toss. You are still apparently unable to accept that you have a lot of room to improve and a much bigger capacity to impact games than you think.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Other games enable players to win no matter how many other opponents there are. You can't do a quint kill in this like you can in an FPS or TPS or even some Hybrid melee games like For Honor, Chivalry, or Mordhau. As much as I hate Mordhau, I will give that you can do a lot for yourself and rely on no one else. There is no reasons MMO's need to be stuck in this archaic design of gameplay. I sit in queue and just hope the only "constant" I have to worry about is myself and not some troll. The fact that everyone deals with it shows the system doesn't make it fun for people. It's fun vampirism.
Obviously there are games that require a lot more skill, so you can have a more consistent impact, but there are still limits to that in any team game. There are also leavers and trolls in every game. And in some cases it's much more punishing. When you get a leaver in CS:GO for example, you can be left in a 4v5 for a 40 minute match. At least in swtor it'll be over in a matter of minutes.

Learning to take losses that are out of your control is an important part of the game, any competitive game really. Maybe solo ranked just isn't for you, but don't blame the game mode for that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Tons of good players have toons stuck in bad ratings due to a string of bad losses. They just roll a toon. Most people won't do that and they shouldn't have to.
That is not true lol. There are no "good" players that get "stuck" in bad ratings and have to reroll toons to get lucky placements. That is what bad players do when they attempt to get good ratings.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
09.25.2021 , 10:58 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.
by the time a player reaches 50 wins, his rating will tell his quality. if he's good, he'll certainly be silver by that time. and if he isn't bronze, then he's a straight carry.

you don't have to play a fotm spec for this either. you just have to play something that isn't entirely dead (like trying to go hatred...or maybe tanking with something other than jugg?).

and 50 wins is generous. it generally becomes apparent before that. but let's just assume you got buried in your first 10 or are actually very good but new to yolo so it took you 20ish games to get your feet under you.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.25.2021 , 11:16 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
by the time a player reaches 50 wins, his rating will tell his quality. if he's good, he'll certainly be silver by that time. and if he isn't bronze, then he's a straight carry.

you don't have to play a fotm spec for this either. you just have to play something that isn't entirely dead (like trying to go hatred...or maybe tanking with something other than jugg?).

and 50 wins is generous. it generally becomes apparent before that. but let's just assume you got buried in your first 10 or are actually very good but new to yolo so it took you 20ish games to get your feet under you.
To a degree, yes. I would agree that if you get to 50 wins and you're about 1100, you're probably not very good. But if you're at 50 wins and at 1300, that doesn't necessarily mean that's as high as you're going to go.

It took me about 100 wins to get to gold on both my sorc and my sage. But better players than me got to gold in about 50 wins. Let's say you're a player that's just barely silver skill-wise, It might take you 100 wins to get there, but it only takes a gold player 20 wins. It's all relative.

And I agree that virtually every class is capable, but it is clearly quicker/easier on the stronger classes, so that matters too.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
09.25.2021 , 11:30 AM | #15
yeah. i specifically avoided mentioning gold. for me, things got difficult around 1425+. losses seemed to hurt more and I needed to go 3:1 to climb rather than 2:1. and in the high 1400s, that was particularly true.

but let's be honest here, if you think you're "good," then you can get the bottom end of silver after 50 wins (edit: wrote games by accident). if you're blaming a poor rating on "poor game design," you're just making excuses. everyone runs into the same issues.

bear in mind, the person you're arguing with here authored these gems...

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
PTs and Juggs are the most toxic classes atm. they're played by sweaty nerds who know the games desync issues are what saves them. Most of the time they're just *********** with targeting.
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
The most toxic players play PT's.

I was a mando that had 100% and went down to 20% with a burst. Are you stupid or something?

That is not balanced at all. They spam abilities, dcds, and immunities and have a giant window to do pure DPS specc level amounts of damage? Are you dumb or something Bioware?

Not to mention the atrocious netcode and latency, so when you concuss charge them away, suddenly they spawn right beside you, even after they've already used their jet charge.

The game's pvp is absolute trash and the game designers should be ashamed of themselves.

Buy Street Fighter 5 and play a real PVP game. That's the only one that matters.
all those PT immunities i guess? and those juggs just killing it in yolo.

note the dude's playing a mando and complaining about other classes dcds and immunities. heh

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
I agree. Game is not big or popular enough to make such stringent requirements for placement in PvP.

It's not Street Fighter, SWTOR will never be a compelling competitive scene. Just open it up and take it easy.

On wintrading, the issue will always exist. With or without ELO loss.
agreeing that there should be no ELO penalty for losses.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.25.2021 , 12:09 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
bear in mind, the person you're arguing with here authored these gems...
Very good point. I guess I should have taken a peak at their post history lol

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.25.2021 , 03:19 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
yeah. i specifically avoided mentioning gold. for me, things got difficult around 1425+. losses seemed to hurt more and I needed to go 3:1 to climb rather than 2:1. and in the high 1400s, that was particularly true.

but let's be honest here, if you think you're "good," then you can get the bottom end of silver after 50 wins (edit: wrote games by accident). if you're blaming a poor rating on "poor game design," you're just making excuses. everyone runs into the same issues.

bear in mind, the person you're arguing with here authored these gems...

all those PT immunities i guess? and those juggs just killing it in yolo.

note the dude's playing a mando and complaining about other classes dcds and immunities. heh


agreeing that there should be no ELO penalty for losses.
You're going through my history to do what? Attack me personally again? Those are my opinions and you have no argument against it other than conjecture.

You're trolling the thread now, not even remotely attempting to discuss the issue with ranked. The most obvious piece of proof is the lack of players. You cannot argue that this game has a lack of interest, especially in it's PVP and yet you people deny is constantly. You are the exact reason why it won't progress or improve.

Also, since "reading comprehension" is in question, you obviously didn't get the part where I said ELO loss should come with Rating Decay and that the systems should be balanced out, including individual ratings that even would apply to 1v1, a complete test of personal play. That post was to mention specifically your game is not the same as other ranked games and no one should take it seriously. So either ease off the serious ranked systems, or introduce better rating.

I have seen countless times players run in place and suddenly appear somewhere else, all while the system message spams "You are too far from the Target" when on screen they are right beside me. Those few seconds are massive DPS losses and more time for their DCDS to recharge. Those micro seconds are what makes games competitive. You don't know what you're talking about in the slightest if you think latency does not play a key role in how the game is perceived by two different players.

By the way, don't even try to compare your Ranked scene with any other game. Especially Street Fighter. There's a reason why EVO exists and nothing does for SWTOR. Your scene is nothing.

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.25.2021 , 03:23 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Good players get higher elo than bad players. And they do it season after season. That fact alone proves that the system works. I also explained to you exactly why that is the case. Go read my previous posts again if you're having trouble comprehending them.

And obviously there is no concrete number of games, nor did I say there was, especially since your rating will vary depending on how you queue, and on which classes, etc.

If it's not fun for you, then don't play it... The fact that you personally don't find it fun has nothing whatsoever to do with its actual quality.

Only a small percentage of solo ranked games are actually a coin toss. You are still apparently unable to accept that you have a lot of room to improve and a much bigger capacity to impact games than you think.

Obviously there are games that require a lot more skill, so you can have a more consistent impact, but there are still limits to that in any team game. There are also leavers and trolls in every game. And in some cases it's much more punishing. When you get a leaver in CS:GO for example, you can be left in a 4v5 for a 40 minute match. At least in swtor it'll be over in a matter of minutes.

Learning to take losses that are out of your control is an important part of the game, any competitive game really. Maybe solo ranked just isn't for you, but don't blame the game mode for that.



That is not true lol. There are no "good" players that get "stuck" in bad ratings and have to reroll toons to get lucky placements. That is what bad players do when they attempt to get good ratings.
So more insults, from calling out my reading comprehension, to continuous conjecture of my ability in the game. You have no argument. Continue to throw random numbers and random placements. You're trolling the thread with no factual information and have nothing to contribute but that you like the broken state of the game because it caters to a small minority of people. It is very true that players from all skill levels roll multiple toons and have throwaways in times of bad sets of matches.

You're apart of what makes this game so toxic and terrible and why you won't see Ranked grow in number.

"If it's not fun don't play it"

Guess what. The majority of people don't. Your game is NOT fun. Sorry, it's just a fact.

Your only arguments in this thread have been that -
1- I am bad, suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect. You have no evidence. The constant berating of my own play seems like projection on your part.

Not many players know to negate an IO Sticky Grenade burst with Scamper. Not many players read tooltips to understand White Damage vs Yellow Damage, and what DCD's protect against what. Not many players realize Obfuscate/Pacifies power, especially with utilities, etc.

And beyond the mechanics, reading the player themselves is also important. I know certain players have certain habits and I exploit them to use DCD's exactly when I want them to. And I have come to realize when other players have come to have an expectation of my style of play. This is what happens in Street Fighter in the first few rounds, where players don't employ all strategies until they can read their opponents, then adapt accordingly.

I am an adaptive player, I learn and think about each loss, and each one I ask what I was doing, what my team was doing, and what the enemy team was doing. That's what makes me a good player. You even admit there are moments beyond our control. This is not my problem. I can handle when players out play me, I can even handle when a player quits, sometimes peoples power goes out. I called into question the game's rating, the games MM, the games mechanics that handle these situations into question. And you have done nothing but Ad hominem attacks with no basis or ground to stand on.

The system as current is draconian. It punishes everything, and rewards everything. Those who are carried also gain from doing nothing. Those who do well yet lose, lose everything. You understand that if I was being carried that this proposed system would reward me less correct? I would gain little for being carried, and lose more for my obvious losses.

The system in front of me is frustrating and fun vampirism, it takes from one and gives to another. That is the worst way to design a team based arena game where even 1 death in a match can result in a /stuck of the entire team. This isn't CSGO, don't try to compare them. CSGO enables 1v5 to happen and it happens quite frequently. ELO Loss in CSGO makes greater sense than it does here.

2- The Rating averages itself out. You provide no number, no stat, no example, nothing at all to substantiate this claim at all. In fact you agree that the number could be vastly different between players. This random chance is not a good measure of accurate skill placement. You agreed that the system could improve but provide no suggestion as how. You then default to your argument that I must be at fault since the system works even though that contradicts what you said.

A system that demands that many games that is plagued with win-traders, throwers, and trolls, is not a system people will stick by. They will never accurately mold that image of themselves because they won't stay. The game is not fun or rewarding enough for players to try.

But apparently, the system "Just works".

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.25.2021 , 03:48 PM | #19
Here's a great example of the two kinds of users on SWTOR who play Ranked PVP.

From condescension, conjecture, snide insults, and no actual arguments.

You two are perfect examples of why Ranked is in such a bad state. CheesyEZ can't even stomach talking to me directly, and has to go through JediMasterAlex to insult me.

These two perfectly prove my point of the stubborn and toxic players that infect PVP. You see your numbers dwindling and not growing and you can't even be bothered to honestly discuss why.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.25.2021 , 11:21 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
you like the broken state of the game because it caters to a small minority of people.
Who does it cater to and how? Do tell.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
You're apart of what makes this game so toxic and terrible and why you won't see Ranked grow in number.
If you knew anything about me or my history regarding ranked toxicity, especially vote kick, you'd know how laughable this take is lol.

But on a similar note, it's posts like yours that create the impression that the forums are a laughing stock, and why hardly any ranked players post here. It's just exhausting.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
"If it's not fun don't play it"
No, if you don't find it fun, don't play it. Your opinion is not a fact lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Your only arguments in this thread have been that -
1- I am bad, suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect. You have no evidence. The constant berating of my own play seems like projection on your part.
My evidence is the content of your posts. And you even stated your record in ranked. I had more than enough evidence to draw pretty firm conclusions.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
I am an adaptive player, I learn and think about each loss, and each one I ask what I was doing, what my team was doing, and what the enemy team was doing. That's what makes me a good player. You even admit there are moments beyond our control. This is not my problem. I can handle when players out play me, I can even handle when a player quits, sometimes peoples power goes out. I called into question the game's rating, the games MM, the games mechanics that handle these situations into question. And you have done nothing but Ad hominem attacks with no basis or ground to stand on.
Is this a copy pasta or am I being punked?

If you're such a good player, why are you 20-31? And you ask where my evidence comes from... lol

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
2- The Rating averages itself out. You provide no number, no stat, no example, nothing at all to substantiate this claim at all. In fact you agree that the number could be vastly different between players. This random chance is not a good measure of accurate skill placement. You agreed that the system could improve but provide no suggestion as how. You then default to your argument that I must be at fault since the system works even though that contradicts what you said.
It's not the rating that averages out...it's all the factors out of your control that average out over enough games. You can't credibly claim that you've suffered more from leavers, etc than someone who is much higher elo than you, assuming you've both played a decent number of games. This isn't a hard concept.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
A system that demands that many games that is plagued with win-traders, throwers, and trolls, is not a system people will stick by. They will never accurately mold that image of themselves because they won't stay. The game is not fun or rewarding enough for players to try.
Just admit you're not having fun in ranked because you're losing and you can't handle losses. We'll even forgive you for making this thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
But apparently, the system "Just works".
It does work. You log in, queue up, and play the game. You either enjoy ranked arenas or you don't. That's fine, everyone has preferences. But you can't pretend that your feelings translate into anything remotely objective regarding ranked. Ranked is mostly fine, you need to look in the mirror.