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Solo Ranked Rating is Poorly Designed

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Solo Ranked Rating is Poorly Designed

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.22.2021 , 08:07 PM | #1
Solo ranked, your rating is based on your 3 other team mates and losing or winning that match.

What?
How is that solo ranked or solo rating?
You know what Solo Ranked in Street Fighter IV and V meant? It meant SOLO. AS IN 1 V 1. Because that's how Solo Ranked truly works. Testing two players skills individually.

What we have is pure team ranked. You have either Premade Team Ranked or Random Team Ranked.

Why isn't it based on individual performance?
Sub 1k dps? Unranked. Sub 2.5k dps? Bronze. 5k dps in a match? Silver. 7k? Gold - Top 3.

Calculate total HPS, total DPS, Final blows, Survival, decorations, etc.

Losing a match isn't an indicator of your own personal skill. It's an indication of your cohesion with your three other mates. Since you can't coordinate since we have no Voice chat, it's difficult to make callouts quickly during a fight. In Gears of War 5 and other FPS/TPS games, VC is necessary in Ranked Matches. Why can console games have Voice Chat but not MMO's??

Tonight, I lost a match because someone left the game mid match to PICK UP HIS UBER DELIVERY ORDER.
Why am I losing ELO? We won a 3v4 on Round 1, the guy died rather fast but at least we could focus harder on the target. Round 2 the guy left so we were down our DPS, and caught 1 and reset, (Full stealth team), and the composition wasn't in our favour, up against, Sage, Merc, Sin. We lost because we just can't really do anything against good players. We didn't have the sustain and as all Melee against 2 Ranged and 1 Melee, it's already their advantage.

Then I lost 10 more in a row.
I tanked -200 ELO on this Operative toon and now it's done. Each match was the perfect throw. One guy who stucked start of Round 2 and cussed out the team, a PT that went down within 10 seconds of match start, a Sin that queued without his Set bonus or Two Cloak Tactical, a Sin that didn't chase a 10% Mara, and more than 1 Merc that complained they died through Kolto.

Each match I did what I could, I off-healed, I caught kills, I CC'd with Flash and Seismics, I swapped based on Guard/HP, I pulled over 400k each match, going into 1.8 Million on one that I lost as well. For me, DPS doesn't truly matter unless you're killing targets, so dumb parsing numbers means nothing unless you secure a kill.

So now I'm sitting in Unranked with 20 wins and 31 losses. All within 2 hours. After my 11 streak loss, I got in a team with a Sniper I was familiar with, a good Merc, and a good Sin. We won.

Good synergy, good target calls, good swaps, good CC's, the other team however had 2 good players, 1 decent player, and 1 absolute troll who cost me most than 5 matches, a Sin who sat as the last one standing in Stealth until Acid rolled out.

Another Operative I knew sitting in 1700+ lost a bunch of rating and logged out because of the nonsense teams we were stacked on.

So why is my Rating subject to the people I queue with? It would make sense in Granked, but in Solo Ranked, the rating system is completely wrong in how it's rating players.

In fact, I'm sure it's been discussed before, but doesn't Solo Ranked make more sense to be 1v1? The issue would be that Operatives would be too powerful, but with a few balance changes I think it would work.

For example, Operatives can only stay in stealth for about 6 seconds same as Mara's. IDK, something to make Solo Ranked more about what you can do personally instead of dreading a bad composition, or having to queue certain times to avoid certain players.

P.S. I also believe we need Rating Decay. The more time your toon is out of the game, the most Rating you lose. You can't just wintrade your way to the top and expect to stay there.

That could be the way the Rating is removed over time if you're playing sub optimally in multiple matches, you gain little, but the decay averages you out. Improvement of your play will make decay hurt less over time. But you still would need to be active on that toon. That or just introduce 1V1s.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.23.2021 , 07:43 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Solo ranked, your rating is based on your 3 other team mates and losing or winning that match.

What?
How is that solo ranked or solo rating?
Because over the course of many games, you are the only constant, and it is possible to carry games. That's why the better players virtually always tend to have higher elo than worse players.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Why isn't it based on individual performance?
Sub 1k dps? Unranked. Sub 2.5k dps? Bronze. 5k dps in a match? Silver. 7k? Gold - Top 3.

Calculate total HPS, total DPS, Final blows, Survival, decorations, etc.
Tank/heal games are really the only place where raw numbers are very important. In all dps games, it's much more about putting damage on the correct target(s) while surviving yourself. That often means chasing/kiting, which are huge dps losses compared to just tabbing onto the closest target.

If you find yourself looking at the ranked scoreboard frustrated that you have top dps and are still losing all the time, I can practically guarantee that you are attacking random targets and costing your teams games.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Losing a match isn't an indicator of your own personal skill. It's an indication of your cohesion with your three other mates.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There are absolutely many games where the outcome is out of your control, but there are many more where it is. Cohesion is also rarely necessary. When someone calls what the strat is, everyone should follow it. Sometimes some degree of improvisation is necessary of course, but in solo ranked with random teammates that can't (or shouldn't at least lol) be in voice, it's almost always best to stick to the strat in my experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Tonight, I lost a match because someone left the game mid match to PICK UP HIS UBER DELIVERY ORDER.
Why am I losing ELO? We won a 3v4 on Round 1, the guy died rather fast but at least we could focus harder on the target. Round 2 the guy left so we were down our DPS, and caught 1 and reset, (Full stealth team), and the composition wasn't in our favour, up against, Sage, Merc, Sin. We lost because we just can't really do anything against good players. We didn't have the sustain and as all Melee against 2 Ranged and 1 Melee, it's already their advantage.
Obviously it sucks having a leaver, but they couldn't make it so you lose no elo as that could be easily exploited. Everyone has to deal with leavers, just have to accept it and move on.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Then I lost 10 more in a row.
I tanked -200 ELO on this Operative toon and now it's done. Each match was the perfect throw. One guy who stucked start of Round 2 and cussed out the team, a PT that went down within 10 seconds of match start, a Sin that queued without his Set bonus or Two Cloak Tactical, a Sin that didn't chase a 10% Mara, and more than 1 Merc that complained they died through Kolto.
I routinely lose 100-150 elo in an evening of ranked. Then other times I gain that much in a similar time period. That will happen if you don't queue selectively. You shouldn't give up on a toon because of one bad night. If you're good enough, you can still climb back, it may just take a while.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
So why is my Rating subject to the people I queue with? It would make sense in Granked, but in Solo Ranked, the rating system is completely wrong in how it's rating players.
Because that's what solo ranked is...it rates you based on wins/losses in 4v4 arenas in a solo queue... It's fair because everyone has to deal with the same downsides. There's a reason better players have higher elo than worse players, and it's not luck or wintrading (most of the time). You've only played 51 games by your own admission. You have to play a lot more than that to get something close to an accurate elo.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
In fact, I'm sure it's been discussed before, but doesn't Solo Ranked make more sense to be 1v1? The issue would be that Operatives would be too powerful, but with a few balance changes I think it would work.
1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
P.S. I also believe we need Rating Decay. The more time your toon is out of the game, the most Rating you lose. You can't just wintrade your way to the top and expect to stay there.
Agreed. The addition of win requirements was a big step in the right direction, but rating decay would also be good for the game.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
09.23.2021 , 07:56 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.
solo ranked did/does an awful lot to make class balance impossible...
  • you cannot assume healer present.
  • you cannot assume tank present.
  • you cannot assume tank and healer present.
  • you cannot assume all dps matches.

not that BW was ever any good at balance in the first place, to be fair.

but solo ranked (being by far the most popular "high end" pvp) makes balancing near impossible. the only legit thing BW could do, imo, is regularly tweak classes (all of them) to prevent one from perpetually being ideal or the "worst," which is something I have never seen them do. and it would require an inordinate amount of effort even if we weren't talking about BW.

in a sense, 1v1 would be easier to balance (you wouldn't have to rebalance and you could homogenize classes/specs), but then you run into the same problems on the list above and class homogenization would be ridiculously worse...imo, ofc. also, it would kill of healing and tanking.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.23.2021 , 08:03 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
in a sense, 1v1 would be easier to balance (you wouldn't have to rebalance and you could homogenize classes/specs), but then you run into the same problems on the list above and class homogenization would be ridiculously worse...imo, ofc. also, it would kill of healing and tanking.
But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
09.23.2021 , 09:03 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.
eh. a lot of people don't enjoy running for life on a dps as the default "correct action" in an arena either (which it is depending on your class). oh. I don't deny that it still requires skill and you can discern the wheat from the chaff over time. but it's really really easy to see how someone playing a dps doesn't do so to have to run away (not really even kiting to kill an opponent so much as being the rabbit whose job is to live longer than the other team's rabbit).

anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."

however, it's also true that solo queue is antithetical to the idea of a team game. personally, I'm fine with it. it's a compromise game mode. I know it's a compromise. but the "slow" people discussed above are either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this (patently obvious) fact.

the balance issue could be easily (and somewhat draconianly) resolved by forcing solo queue to follow the trinity model (thus drastically lengthening queue times and reducing overall pops) or simply getting rid of healer and tank roles from the queue. I don't advocate either of these moves b/c the game mode is and always was a compromise, but there you have it.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.23.2021 , 12:31 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
eh. a lot of people don't enjoy running for life on a dps as the default "correct action" in an arena either (which it is depending on your class). oh. I don't deny that it still requires skill and you can discern the wheat from the chaff over time. but it's really really easy to see how someone playing a dps doesn't do so to have to run away (not really even kiting to kill an opponent so much as being the rabbit whose job is to live longer than the other team's rabbit).
I completely agree. Especially classes like jugg and mara, where running away is actually the primary differentiator between good and bad players lol. Hopefully 7.0 will change that to some degree.

Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."

however, it's also true that solo queue is antithetical to the idea of a team game. personally, I'm fine with it. it's a compromise game mode. I know it's a compromise. but the "slow" people discussed above are either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this (patently obvious) fact.
It does work though. This is where critics get it wrong. People can complain until they're blue in the face that "I'm dependent on 3 randoms to win," yet solo ranked actually does a pretty good job of ranking people if you play a sufficient number of games. Because you get different teammates, and all of the outside factors even out over time.

Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
the balance issue could be easily (and somewhat draconianly) resolved by forcing solo queue to follow the trinity model (thus drastically lengthening queue times and reducing overall pops) or simply getting rid of healer and tank roles from the queue. I don't advocate either of these moves b/c the game mode is and always was a compromise, but there you have it.
Forcing tank/heal games would make solo ranked an incredibly boring slog of a game mode. Part of what makes it fun is that all dps games (the majority of games) are generally quick and decisive one way or another. Tank/heal games in solo ranked almost always drag on because without voice comms, hardswaps for quick kills do not happen often unless there's a significant skill gap between the teams. Going to acid frequently gets boring very fast to me, and many other solo ranked players.

Also, I enjoy the variety. Even heal/dps games, my least favorite, can be fun when there aren't ap pts involved.

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
09.23.2021 , 01:34 PM | #7
yes. my experience with trinity matches in yolo (as long as there wasn't a hopeless teammate) was that no one died because you lack communication and also yolo teams tend to lack the synergy between specs that a premade team would have.

I think the ideal for yolo is heal/dps or tank/dps for that reason. or all dps. but iunno. it is what it is. this whole game is what it is. I'm weary of trying to change things at this point.

true story, I used to queue-up just to turn-in my daily or weekly. I absentmindedly did that the other day then hopped on another character to queue for the daily and found myself locked out for a 15-minute quitter debuff. lul. ok. guess I'll go work on my pool table for the night (custom table/tennis top). just one of the silly things BW has done to make the game "better." not sure I'll be asking for more changes...worried BW might give me what I wished for with another sadistic twist.

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.23.2021 , 06:41 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by CheesyEZ View Post
anyway...the problem most players have with solo ranked is that it's a solo queue and a solo rating derived from a team game. wins and losses is the only viable measure, and you win and lose as a team. trying not to get a ban for stating this, but ppl who can't get that through their thick skulls are..."slow."
Calling people "Slow" in place of another more profane word is just as insulting. If you can't argue your point efficiently and need to insult others to bully your opinion across, maybe your position isn't as strong as you think it is.

Karimloo's Avatar


Karimloo
09.23.2021 , 07:25 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Because over the course of many games, you are the only constant, and it is possible to carry games. That's why the better players virtually always tend to have higher elo than worse players.

Tank/heal games are really the only place where raw numbers are very important. In all dps games, it's much more about putting damage on the correct target(s) while surviving yourself. That often means chasing/kiting, which are huge dps losses compared to just tabbing onto the closest target.

If you find yourself looking at the ranked scoreboard frustrated that you have top dps and are still losing all the time, I can practically guarantee that you are attacking random targets and costing your teams games.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There are absolutely many games where the outcome is out of your control, but there are many more where it is. Cohesion is also rarely necessary. When someone calls what the strat is, everyone should follow it. Sometimes some degree of improvisation is necessary of course, but in solo ranked with random teammates that can't (or shouldn't at least lol) be in voice, it's almost always best to stick to the strat in my experience.

Obviously it sucks having a leaver, but they couldn't make it so you lose no elo as that could be easily exploited. Everyone has to deal with leavers, just have to accept it and move on.

I routinely lose 100-150 elo in an evening of ranked. Then other times I gain that much in a similar time period. That will happen if you don't queue selectively. You shouldn't give up on a toon because of one bad night. If you're good enough, you can still climb back, it may just take a while.

Because that's what solo ranked is...it rates you based on wins/losses in 4v4 arenas in a solo queue... It's fair because everyone has to deal with the same downsides. There's a reason better players have higher elo than worse players, and it's not luck or wintrading (most of the time). You've only played 51 games by your own admission. You have to play a lot more than that to get something close to an accurate elo.

1v1 would just be totally different from 4v4. It tests different skills, and class balance would instantly become a nightmare, unless you only dueled the same class. And that would get boring extremely quickly.

Agreed. The addition of win requirements was a big step in the right direction, but rating decay would also be good for the game.
I'll be the first to admit to you I'm not the best player on the planet, I've only played this game's Ranked scene for about 2 months now. But with my experience in a pool of competitive games, I can assure you, this is one of the least balanced, and as a result, at times, one of the least fun. But when you get a 2-1 win or loss because you got into a great match with good opponents and teammates, the game at time can shine with class synergy.

Furthermore I have never walked into an Arena without my Set bonus. Even if I got globalled I got globalled in my set gear. And I rarely get caught on globals anymore. Part of that learning process came from actually reading my utilities, proficiencies, class guides, YouTube videos, and listening to other players advice. Most people don't attempt to learn a game's mechanics because they think it's hard.

You can't guarantee I'm not on target because I know what priorities are. I don't hit into guard and I swap based on whats happening in the fight. If I see a net on an Operative that's low and it isn't my target, chances are teammate Merc who netted him probably wants to secure a kill, maybe he knows that Operative's CC break is on CD. Dumb Focusing on a Target isn't the way to play either, especially if the person who called it made the bad call.

This game is a cake walk compared to studying Frame Data in Street Fighter. It's not even remotely close in complexity. You can't drop a cast in this game like you can drop a combo.

I don't know where you people jump to this extreme assumption I can't move on with my life because of one bad match. It's like you're fluffing a piece for a highschool paper, just get to your point. I'm talking about the game. And the game's Solo Rating is so up to chance and randomness that the idea that one player can be the constant and as a result is the cause of all failures is such poor logic. By that same thinking every win was because of me as well? It's all about team cohesion. And Solo Rating doesn't reflect an individuals ability accurate enough.

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
But balance issues aside, 1v1 is fundamentally different from 4v4 arenas. Sure, you would get a much clearer picture of who is good at 1v1s than you do at 4v4s, because the elo would be more accurate in fewer games played. But would it actually be fun? This is still a game after all, and a lot of people just don't enjoy dueling very much.
There are plenty of 1v1 games, For Honor off the top of my head. If the games duels aren't enjoyable, that should tell you about the games current state. It can be made fun.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.23.2021 , 10:51 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
Dumb Focusing on a Target isn't the way to play either, especially if the person who called it made the bad call.
Some degree of adaptability is good, but I promise you this mindset is losing you games. You've played ranked for two months and already think you know better than the experienced players calling strats for you. That's a good recipe for losing games that you should be winning. If you really think that someone is making a bad call, you should point that out to them in chat before the round starts, don't just do your own thing during the round. It's much better for everyone to be on the same page, even if it's the wrong page, than for everyone to do whatever they feel like.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
This game is a cake walk compared to studying Frame Data in Street Fighter. It's not even remotely close in complexity. You can't drop a cast in this game like you can drop a combo.
This is correct. Swtor is very easy compared to most other competitive online games, though I imagine it's comparable to other mmos.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
And the game's Solo Rating is so up to chance and randomness that the idea that one player can be the constant and as a result is the cause of all failures is such poor logic. By that same thinking every win was because of me as well? It's all about team cohesion. And Solo Rating doesn't reflect an individuals ability accurate enough.
This is just nonsense and not at all what I said. I've already explained it, but I can do so again. In solo ranked, the outcome of many games is out of your control. Sometimes you get throwers or leavers, sometimes someone just makes a bad mistake. Sometimes you're heavily outcomped, etc. So yes, even the best players in the game lose games for those reasons, and it has nothing to do with their skill.

These outside factors even out over time, as they work against you sometimes and for you other times. You are the remaining constant, meaning once you remove all those matches where you can't affect the outcome, you are left with the ones in which you can affect the outcome. Those are the matches where good players play well and win, and how they get reliably high elos season after season. It's why the good players get top 3s and golds season after season. If it was truly as random as you say it is, that wouldn't be possible.

Your complaints are common for someone who thinks they're much better than they are, but in reality still has a long way to go to improve. There's no shame in not being a gold caliber player, especially only 2 months in. You should just accept it and work to improve rather than blaming the system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karimloo View Post
There are plenty of 1v1 games, For Honor off the top of my head. If the games duels aren't enjoyable, that should tell you about the games current state. It can be made fun.
I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it's very different, and many people who enjoy 4v4 arenas do not enjoy 1v1s. One cannot replace the other because the audience is not the same.