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Resolve bar rework

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Resolve bar rework

joshrva's Avatar


joshrva
06.30.2022 , 03:26 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by ZUHFB View Post
I see your logic, but this has hardly anything to do with whitebar? If you die in 1 stun then what does it matter? If you say oh maybe I'd have been whitebarred from slows, then they would've stunned earlier.

Again, you are right. But that doesn't relate to whitebar changes imo.
Dying to 1 stun isn't the problem, that's just a l2p issue. The issue is getting chain stunned constantly, which is what getting whitebarred in one hardstun would fix.

ZUHFB's Avatar


ZUHFB
06.30.2022 , 05:52 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by joshrva View Post
Dying to 1 stun isn't the problem, that's just a l2p issue. The issue is getting chain stunned constantly, which is what getting whitebarred in one hardstun would fix.
Yeah, but my point is that if you end up in a situation like this it is still your fault for getting srunned twice, without breaker or CDs you simply have to play more passive.

If you get white bar from one stun then how would you punish a bad breaker? You just couldn't... seems pretty stupid.

joshrva's Avatar


joshrva
06.30.2022 , 07:22 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by ZUHFB View Post
Yeah, but my point is that if you end up in a situation like this it is still your fault for getting srunned twice, without breaker or CDs you simply have to play more passive.

If you get white bar from one stun then how would you punish a bad breaker? You just couldn't... seems pretty stupid.
The problem is breaker has a 2m30 cooldown. This is regs weíre talking about, do you think the best course of action after using breaker on a white bar in a 6v6 in mid would be to los and run behind everything after white bar is over so you canít get chainstunned and killed? Because that sounds incredibly boring.

The fact of the matter is, you donít have to ďpunish a bad breakerĒ in regs. If you stun someone they will most likely not have breaker because breaker has such a long cooldown. So what op is arguing and what I am arguing for regs is that if you need more than that one stun when they probably wonít have breaker anyway to kill them, youíre just bad.

Again Iím only arguing this for regs. For ranked I agree with pretty much every point you make.

Crazykidddd's Avatar


Crazykidddd
06.30.2022 , 09:39 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by joshrva View Post
I literally didn't say anything about lethality not taking flash bang. Flash bang is on an entirely different tier than hardstun. To take hardstun you only have to give up an evasion buff (2s longer evasion on leth, 15 second cooldown reduction and 50% movement speed increase on conc). To take flashbang, you have to give up holotraverse (gap closer), and a lot of operatives choose to still take holotraverse.

No, no one would die in one hardstun unless they're the type of global bait that already dies in one hardstun or without a stun. I don't think you have ever played rank based on the things you have said. You regstars have the misconception about ranked in that it's just a numbers game and whoever can number fluff the best wins. This is entirely false. In ranked, players actually know how to use their dcds, they know how to kite, they know how to peal, etc. You will not kill anyone if every class can run around whitebarred after one hardstun or 3 roots.

You use AP PT as an example to your argument, so I will too. AP PT has two stun breakers, regular one and stun breaker on kolto. Currently, you can stun one twice and whitebar them and they will be able to break both of them. Imagine, if one stun whitebarred them, they could break that, be unstunnable for 15s, be stunned and whitebarred again, break new stun, and then be unstunnable for another 15s. That would be 30s of being unstunnable. With their "5 sec ttk," this means they could kill the whole enemy team 1.5 times over without having to sit a single stun.

Sorc is another class that would be broken with one hardstun whitebar. Sorc has 3 breakers, and their staying alive strategy focuses heavily around kiting. If every stun whitebarred them, with their 3 breakers, they would be unstunnable for at least 45s. But it gets worse, because phase walk is on a 60s cooldown, so they will likely be able to use it for their fourth stun. That means 1m15 of not being stunnable. That is ridiculous, when the only way to kill a decent sorc is in a hardstun.

You are partly right in that, yes, players can be killed in one hardstun. They most often are. But you're heavily overlooking the fact that in an arena, each player will have at least one breaker, and all of their dcds available at the start. If one stun whitebarred you, the ttk would just be way too high. Additionally, your claim that only being able to hardstun an enemy once will take improved player coordination, this is false. In solo and especially team ranked, chain stunning people takes way more coordination. If you have not played either game mode I do not want to hear your opinion on this, if you have then feel free to challenge me on that and say why you think one hardstun takes more coordination.

Also, saying we're in a burst meta is kinda dumb. The meta in solo ranked will always be "burst," however, two of the 4 meta classes right now aren't even by definition burst, those two being lethality and madness.
K, misunderstanding about lethality then.
Believe me I have no misconceptions about ranked.
You say no one would die in one hard stun unless they're global bait, but there are obviously many times when people die not stunned. Unless you're playing GR (which then does become much more of a numbers game than SR) and die to the sudden death debuff, then there are only so many cds available to people, and any team properly focusing one target would not need more than one consecutive hard stun to kill any one target if major cooldowns are out of the way (looking mostly at escapes or immunities).
Also saying that sorc has access to 3 breakers pretty much means nothing unless we're talking about a noob who pops all his cds at once. Any sorc taking focus from a team will have to pop some kind of important cd at some point to live and so calling those "stun breakers" doesn't really mean anything bcs you're taking the sorc out of the fight either way and chipping away at its defenses.
Btw, less stuns also means classes will be able to do more damage, especially the ones that require a certain amount of setup to not be interrupted to maximize their damage output.
And a pt being immune to stuns for 30 secs straight wont mean that he'll kill the entire team at 1 person/ 5 seconds.
FIrst off the pt's burst is not sustainable, and second, like you said, classes have defensives and people to peel for them (if we're talking about a competent group, rare) so no, a pt being immune to stuns for 30 secs would not lay waste to a team. Btw, as it stands, if a pt doesnt break his first stun, he is now immune to cc for at least 30 secs, its basically the same scenario.
If you honestly think that calling out in voice chat for someone to get their stun ready as soon as yours goes out to kill a target is hard then we're talking about diff levels of skill here.
Tbh this whole conversation is silly. The ability to be hard stunned for 8 secs straight is obviously not he sole way to kill people in any content, be it regs or ranked. Will it make things more difficult? Yes. Is that a good thing? YES.
You mention the current meta means nothing bcs burst was always favored for ranked. What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying the current meta is absolutely ridiculous. There is so much burst in the game atm (and less defensives) that having to be hard stunned for 8 secs straight to be able to kill someone is just a L2P issue.
Now for all I care they can also reduce the bar's duration from 15 down to 10 secs, as long as it means being able to not die stunned over and over.
My point was in fact more focused on regs than it was on ranked, for many reasons, and so I'd still be happy if it only applied to regs, but something needs to be done.

joshrva's Avatar


joshrva
07.01.2022 , 08:26 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
You say no one would die in one hard stun unless they're global bait, but there are obviously many times when people die not stunned. Unless you're playing GR (which then does become much more of a numbers game than SR) and die to the sudden death debuff, then there are only so many cds available to people, and any team properly focusing one target would not need more than one consecutive hard stun to kill any one target if major cooldowns are out of the way (looking mostly at escapes or immunities).
Obviously no one would die is an exaggeration, I really meant ttk would be way too long, but madness sorcs may actually not die. My whole point is basically if one stun whitebarred you, you would be able to use defensive cooldowns much more conservatively, and then ttk would be way too long. Itís less so that you would have to sit through 4 sec stun instead of 8 sec stun, more so that you would not have to sit through an opening stun at all because it would whitebar you and you could break straightaway. And since you donít have to sit through an opening stun, you donít have to preemptively use/waste any defensive cooldowns AND you can kite/los behind stuff much easier so that you donít take all the burst at once / donít take the burst at all, which again means you can stretch your defensive cooldowns out longer and live way longer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
Also saying that sorc has access to 3 breakers pretty much means nothing unless we're talking about a noob who pops all his cds at once. Any sorc taking focus from a team will have to pop some kind of important cd at some point to live and so calling those "stun breakers" doesn't really mean anything bcs you're taking the sorc out of the fight either way and chipping away at its defenses.
Youíre right in that sorcís 3 breakers ARE itís defensives. Getting whitebarred in one stun may not necessarily change how sorcs use their breakers, but it would make said 3 breakers much more powerful. Basically, sorcs defensive strategy revolves around avoiding damage, kiting, obviously. This means that the easiest way to kill them is by stunning them. In fact youíre probably not going to be able to kill them at all if you canít stun them and they have more than two brain cells, I donít care how good you are. So if they could only be stunned once every 15s, they would not have to sit through a single stun for the first 45s, and then they would only have to live for 15s before being able to pw again and basically break another stun for another 15s of immunity, and by this time polarity will be coming off cd so they can kite with 100% movement speed and whitebar immunity for another 15s, and then they would only have to live for another 30s before they could phasewalk again, you get the idea (I hope).

Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
Btw, less stuns also means classes will be able to do more damage, especially the ones that require a certain amount of setup to not be interrupted to maximize their damage output.
I donít see the correlation. I think the only class this is even true for is pt. Most classes will do less damage with less stuns in solo ranked because without being able to control the target they will run away and you wonít be able to hit them. Iím assuming what you mean is if youíre taking less stuns youíll do more damage, but if youíre taking hardstuns that probably means youíre the target so doing damage is not nearly as important as kiting/surviving, unless youíre a pt in which case yeah you gotta do damage and not having to sit as many stuns will mean you can do more, as I already said.

Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
And a pt being immune to stuns for 30 secs straight wont mean that he'll kill the entire team at 1 person/ 5 seconds.
FIrst off the pt's burst is not sustainable, and second, like you said, classes have defensives and people to peel for them (if we're talking about a competent group, rare) so no, a pt being immune to stuns for 30 secs would not lay waste to a team. Btw, as it stands, if a pt doesnt break his first stun, he is now immune to cc for at least 30 secs, its basically the same scenario.
Maybe that wasnít the best example, but, as you said ďptís burst is not sustainableĒ burst is not sustainable. 5 second ttk doesnít mean youíll be able to kill someone from 100 to 0 in one hardstun late in the game because you most likely WONíT have your burst available. This means that, yes, multiple stuns are needed to kill someone. Yes you often kill people out of stuns or in one stun WHEN THEYíRE already low, but to get people low stuns are usually necessary. It does heavily depend on the class though, itís more true that you need stuns to kill a class that depends on kiting or escaping (like sin/op/mara/sorc - wow the meta classes), and less true for classes that often just face tank (like pt). So making one hardstun whitebar you would just make the stealth meta even worse than it already is.

Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
If you honestly think that calling out in voice chat for someone to get their stun ready as soon as yours goes out to kill a target is hard then we're talking about diff levels of skill here.
Iím not saying itís hard, but I am saying it takes more coordination than simply not doing it at all. You obviously still have to coordinate to hit the person youíre trying to kill at the same time during the first hardstun. In team ranked, with guards and heals, you pretty much are only able to kill people during hardstuns unless you just have pressure difference. Itís less so that you wonít be able to kill people without chainstunning them, but more so that you wonít be able to stun as often which will draw more games out to acid (which is boring).

Quote: Originally Posted by Crazykidddd View Post
Tbh this whole conversation is silly. The ability to be hard stunned for 8 secs straight is obviously not he sole way to kill people in any content, be it regs or ranked. Will it make things more difficult? Yes. Is that a good thing? YES.
I think weíre kinda just looking at it in different ways to be honest. I agree that hardstunning people for 8 secs is not the only way to kill people, which is why in regs I think this is a good idea. But in ranked, hardstunning for at least 4s straight up is necessary to kill skilled players. Getting whitebarred from one hardstun will not only mean you are not able to stun as often, but it also means that whenever you have breaker up you wonít even have to sit one hardstun.
It will make it more difficult to kill people in ranked, yes. Is this a good thing, no, ttk does not need to be longer in ranked. And it will make it easier to live when youíre the one being focused, which is most definitely not a good thing when the meta is composed of classes that are hard to kill without stuns.