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BioWare You Have It Right, Don't Listen to the Raiders


JMCA

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Raiding has been in decline for years. The obvious reality is that participation in ops in this game does not justify the cost, so by focusing on story chapters and more inclusive, smaller scale PvE, there is much greater potential than trying and failing to get people to play ops.

 

If raiding participation does not increase as a result of 4.0, where all raids were made more accessible, then just write it off and focus on content that people do want to participate in.

 

Let the metrics guide you, don't listen to an over-represented vocal minority anymore. That's what got you guys into the revenue decline mess in the first place - listening to raiders over the much larger group of people who wanted story content.

 

Please don't relapse into what you did in RotHC and SoR.

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I agree, more or less. Raid-centric game design results colossal disappointments like Warlords of Draenor. I've had more fun playing SWTOR in the couple months since 4.0 launched than I've had playing WoW in the year+ since WoD dropped. Edited by Hebruixe
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If they get the resources available to continue providing story-content at the level they have planned with KotFE's monthly releases and they can put out some raids, then by all means they should go ahead and put out a few new Ops now and then.

 

But when push comes to shove, if they have to pick what to include and what to cut, which seems to be the case at present, then I agree they should be sticking with the solo-story focus and leaving raiding by the wayside.

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Raiding has been in decline for years

Please provide proof of this. - oh wait, no player or forum warrior has server numbers or metrics to prove this kind of thing, so nvm.

 

If you are talking about the raiding decline in SWTOR,, did you ever think that the raiders have been declining in this game due to the fact that Bioware has not released a new op in more than a year? If BW were to stun everyone and suddenly release 2 new ops with Chapter X, how many people do you think would return to this game? Or do you really think this would cause a decline in the game's population?

 

And, once again, as I never get tired of mentioning this - please explain why BW/EA does not have the resources to simultaneously work on both story and ops (and other stuff as well). It does not have to be an either or option...

 

Finally, a healthy mmo game should cater to all sorts of playstyles/players. Just because you may not raid or feel it is not important does not mean it should be in the game. I am personally not a big fan of strongholds/housing but I would never advocate BW remove it or stop working on them.

 

More players = healthy, longer-lasting, and sometimes even a better overall game. There is no reason to remove or stop working on any part of this game.

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If raiding participation does not increase as a result of 4.0, where all raids were made more accessible, then just write it off and focus on content that people do want to participate in.

That's what got you guys into the revenue decline mess in the first place - listening to raiders over the much larger group of people who wanted story content.

 

That's a good one mate.

 

With 4.0, people are now doing ops beside the past progression ones, but it in NOT increasing the amount of people playing them as it is old content. They have been dumbed down extremely to the casual population to the point they are not as enjoyable. HM's and NiM's still pose a challenge with mechanics and DPS checks, but the game went into a decline after 3.0 because raiders were frustrated with being unable to kill bosses in HM, and the fact that no new raids were coming out.

 

Sure the raiding population is not large, but it in no way small. Look at the stream the devs had Thursday, it was flooded with ops comments as people want to know instead of subbing for non MMO content. Story and PvP content is great and they did a great job with the story, but they are ignoring all of the MMO aspects of the game. Oh cool, a two person star fortress. No one thinks to group up for that on Heroic mode unless they can't do it themselves. Let's call it group content anyway.

 

Ops is not limited to just hardcore and progression raiders, but the average player who does do ops here and there. Because no new ops were announced with 4.0 and the long progression wait between 2.7 and 3.0. they stated was too long and were hoping to never happen again (search it up). People have *****ed since the beginning about how this game was not KOTOR III, so now you have it. It's a great story like I said, but they made the game too easy along with the fact they left out MMO content. They need a balance of everything, and story was usually every 4-6 months, 8 months to one year for ops, and who knows how long for PvP since they **** the bed with that. There is no balance with that.

 

PvP by far needs new things before PvE, but PvE is dying in terms of content as many of the veteran players have left due to the fact nothing new is coming out. Oh wow, everything that we spent years progressing through is now scaled to endgame, well guys, guess we have new progression! I'm honestly sick of running old ops and maybe I should find another game, but there needs to be a balance between all aspects, not just focusing on one area of the game as that's how you lose customers. If you are only satisfying one part of the game, you lose out on other areas.

 

But ranting aside, bottom line is they need a balance and need to announce some concrete evidence of when they plan to balance out all aspects of the community as the "we will let you know when we have information" and "It is something we definitely want to work on, but we don't have any plans now" responses are what is killing it. Sure Musco can't talk about everything going on behind the scenes, but we need some better communication to this already strained community.

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You know what I've wasted enough time talking to gibbering fanboys who have no idea what a quality MMO is and are unable to see that they are being ripped off with every dollar they spend on this game.

 

EA has you all by the balls. They know you are a bunch of vain (costume shop), overly sensitive (LGBT being forced into the story out of political acquiescence), obsessive (re-skinned products from other products that you have to buy or pay a large in-game cost for), spineless (constant QQ on the forums and still pay them their tribute), sex-obsessed (ton of skimpy outfits everywhere and more on the way), hypocritical (we want CLASS STORY. huh, one mission? WE WANT FACTION STORIES BACK!!!1!!), people who are the literal definition of a mark.

 

Enjoy your dress-up time and keep wasting your money neckbeards.

 

Be sure to pay attention with Heavensward comes out and FFXIV once again shows you fanboys what a real MMO does on behalf of its players.

 

This just goes to show the type of person you are and have no regard for others opinions and your disrespect to people because they want things that are different than yours.

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It's fine if they don't want to be a raiding game, but if they want people to pay a sub/spend money on the game, and if they'd like to keep the servers running, they need to provide some kind of long-term content that people enjoy.

 

Whether that is raiding or something else. Right now I'd say, raiding aside, they are missing that mark.

 

Think what you like. These games live and die on the numbers. No people, or too few, and no game. EA has shut games down before. They will do it again. Don't be naive. The "movie hype" is a temporary boon I promise you.

Edited by doelow
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This just goes to show the type of person you are and have no regard for others opinions and your disrespect to people because they want things that are different than yours.

Hah, I thought OP's handle sounded familiar. Ah well, I agree with some of the thread's thesis even if its originator did go full-on douche-bag in the past. (And seriously, I cannot roll my eyes hard enough at that "overly sensitive (LGBT being forced into the story out of political acquiescence)" crap.)

Edited by DarthDymond
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Not a hardcore raider. Not a super fanboy. I enjoyed SWTOR for a long long time now starting pre-release. The most interesting thing I can say is raiding is actually increased and often gf ops will pop if you que yourself during a prime time. So I have to say your logic is based upon your belief out the gate that raiding is a waste of your personal playing time but is hardly representative of the actual desire to join raids. I will go one further you probably in all likely hood have never raided in any past mmo or were a raiding in swtor and got removed from an ops team due to either your play or the team just falling apart.

 

Now I understand you will wave your flag of OH MY GOD BW DID IT RIGHT, but really they failed hard not because they did not release a new operation this time around but because they though that the content they had released was actually compelling enough in its own right to have a player pay for a long term subscription. And we can all agree its not the one month omg the movie was awesome they had targeted here, it is the OMG our game is tanking how can be make this big MMO splash to further define what SWTOR is for an MMO. The released something unique and definitely a new way to deliver the SWTOR unique story this MMO has always tried to provide. BUT they gave us nine chapters of story which really amounts to less that 60 minutes of actually you playing the game you are paying monthly for which was honestly a major major fail. They decided to go the 2 hours of video route. This was a massive mistake. MMO players even the players that you would identify with want to PLAY a game not play a game and WATCH MOSTLY VIDEO.

 

Top that off with this massive gap between the first new KOTFE content and the up coming content. Of which honestly do you think its going to be more than 20 minutes of actually playing the game vs 60 more minutes of videos? Oh and top that every four weeks they will have the same deal for the fantastic month price of 14.99. I think all those the raid see this is an issue and I think all those that just casual enjoy the story see this as an issue and are not buying it.

 

I know this is true because they are and have been trying very hard to get you to sub again by giving gimmicky reskinned mounts and side chapters for story that will amount to 20 minutes of total game time.

 

Now you say well its definitely more time to complete the first 9 of KOTFE and if you walk and not mount to ride through the same areas again and again it sure is longer but after that first play through the story is absolutely not different no matter the choices you select and I do not buy it for one second that chapter ten choices will matter what so ever.

 

Oh and the replay ability is as poor as you can get. once you see it its the same over and over and over and over.

 

This OP is the reason why they needed to add not only operations but flashpoints, tactical flashpoints, warzones and GSF to keep people subbed long enough for them to release the chapter story monthly. Please stop fluffing them and really be genuine when you post something not your doing a good job cause you clearly are delusion if you think this is a good job.

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The only one of these that actually shows any kind of numbers to back up their suppositions is one on statistical analysis. All the rest are opinion pieces and should not be used to tell someone that they are wrong or to back up an argument.

 

Also, something else to consider about your argument concerning SWTOR raiding is the fact that no new raids have been added in over a year. With no new content those players that enjoy that content will leave. The same issue is prevalent in the PvP aspect of SWTOR.

 

Limited choice and single player story lines, like those in this game, will only keep people involved for a limited amount of time. Content needs to be added after this in order to keep players around and a 2-3 hour snippet every month really isn't enough to keep people subscribed. People will just wait until they're all out then subscribe for a few days and play through them then unsub.

 

It is the other content that keeps players around because it is through the multiplayer aspect, the raids and pvp, that develops the relationships between the players that causes them to stay because those are the only interactions with other players that a person has.

 

If BW fully got rid of all OPs and PvP, the subscriber base would plummet even further because, and lets be honest here, the stories, especially the newest ones, really aren't that good.

 

Now, if this was an OW/Sandbox type where there is the possibility of a whole new set of social interactions then OPs/PvP wouldn't be needed as much in order to keep subscribers.

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Great findings! Let me recite the last of your link here for it is the great truth of MMO:

 

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

 

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

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The OP, and many of you, quote stuff like this at your own peril.

 

There are a lot of people very angry at BioWare for forcing a subscription model on people and not giving them content in return, except for a 'story' that has little replay value. This does not mean we are looking for raids. It means we are looking for CONTENT. Content can be a great many things... just look at Guild Wars 2 and how much stuff there is to do. (And whether you want to argue or not, Blizzard still does this very well with WoW - in fact more people are using their raid finder than ever.)

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I don't know why this always had to turn into a "us vs them" kind of tirade.

 

Hardcore gamers no longer dominate the industry. Study after study, including those posted here MANY times prove this without question....casual players rule the market, and are currently the majority of most MMOs playerbases, with a few notable exceptions.

 

That, however, does not mean that raiding is dead or dying. What it does mean is that the old rules no longer apply...if you want more folks to participate in raiding, it means findiing alternate ways to get them involved. The old carrots no longer work IMO.....because, generally speaking, gear is not the driving force for a casual player.

 

I do not think raiding should be abandoned...I do think raids need to transform. So they can have far wider appeal.

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raiders, not raiders, mmos are in a decline overall, people jump on new game like locusts , power to cap then whine and ***** there isnt enough **** for them to do and the game whatever it is sucks, then they start getting juiced up about whatever other game seems to be coming out, repeat ..... there is no money catering to the locusts long term, they have destroyed the genre
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I don't know why this always had to turn into a "us vs them" kind of tirade.

 

Hardcore gamers no longer dominate the industry. Study after study, including those posted here MANY times prove this without question....casual players rule the market, and are currently the majority of most MMOs playerbases, with a few notable exceptions.

 

That, however, does not mean that raiding is dead or dying. What it does mean is that the old rules no longer apply...if you want more folks to participate in raiding, it means findiing alternate ways to get them involved. The old carrots no longer work IMO.....because, generally speaking, gear is not the driving force for a casual player.

 

I do not think raiding should be abandoned...I do think raids need to transform. So they can have far wider appeal.

This is all that needs to be said. You've 100% hit the nail on the head.

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So I raged in the past. Oh well.

 

Anyway my contention about raiding still stands because I have experienced more than enough raiding to know that there really isn't a good solution to it besides shrinking the scale of it, hence co-op and solo PvE.

 

Getting 8 people together is a pain. The logistics of that makes it a problem all on its own. The politics of 8 ppl having to work together can also be a pain. It usually is more than it isn't.

 

Smaller scale removes those problems. It also removes the problem of having to balance classes so heavily for the roles, which frees up BW to better balance PvP.

 

The way I see it, tradition has dictated what raiding is to such an extent that trying to evolve it isn't worth it anymore, especially given how toxic raiders are about breaking any of their "rules."

 

Take the nightmare mode raging for example - it is so unthinkable for these people to not have the best possible drops guaranteed that they are willing to unsub from the game because of it.

 

That's a relationship built on greed and bribery.

 

There are so many better things BW can do with their time and money than make raids, and as KotFE continues to be more successful I'm confident that this co-op / solo model is going to be what people have expected from them.

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-snip-

and as KotFE continues to be more successful I'm confident that this co-op / solo model is going to be what people have expected from them.

 

Heh. I'm betting the 4th quarter numbers from SWTOR will be less than good. We shall soon see.

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Heh. I'm betting the 4th quarter numbers from SWTOR will be less than good. We shall soon see.

 

You really think that during the biggest movie event in history and with a Blur trailer that SWTOR isn't going to do well? And by making the game significantly more accessible than before?

 

You're out of your damn mind lol

Edited by JMCA
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You really think that during the biggest movie event in history and with a Blur trailer that SWTOR isn't going to do well? And by making the game significantly more accessible than before?

 

You're out of your damn mind lol

 

The Blur trailer was a colossal waste of money. It's not even funny. That thing cost them, what, 4-5 million dollars?

 

All it brought back was a handful of story casuals that'll quit when they realize that the game has no "game" to it anymore.

Edited by GrandLordMenace
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Waiting for Skaara or one of the other anti-BW people to come in here and talk condescendingly down at the OP.

 

You don't think the OP isn't already talking very condescendingly about a sub group swtor players? To single any one group out and blame them for the failures of the game is pure folly. Good designers and game developers develop their games to suit many play groups (that is what leads to success btw). Even higher quality developers manage to keep that content bar moving forward equally over time for all play styles. Inexperienced, or incapable developers will struggle to keep the content for all groups even.

 

So, to say I want one aspect of the game removed and my own personal aspect increased, only shows the ignorance and lack of understanding of the person making the statement. Also, as is apparent so far by the supporters in this thread, people will always come to defend a particular issue that may only be relevant to them, but not necessarily to the whole of swtor players, therefor their opinion becomes equally invalid.

 

We should try and raise this game up together, and give the devs support in increasing all avenues of play style, as best we can. Rather than make inflammatory post that offer nothing, why not make helpful suggestions and ideas to the developers, and let us all be brothers in arms?

Edited by Holocron
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BW lost (or could not hold) about 1 million subs with their story focus in the first place, not sure what the OP is talking about.

 

if you are talking about the rest of the playerbase that is left, you are probably right, that the biggest group wants solo stuff. But i am not sure if it is BWs goal to only maintain the playerbase they have now.

Edited by Neglience
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BW lost (or could not hold) about 1 million subs with their story focus in the first place, not sure what the OP is talking about.

 

if you are talking about the rest of the playerbase that is left, you are probably right, that the biggest group wants solo stuff. But i am not sure if it is BWs goal to only maintain the playerbase they have now.

 

One of the mythologies of the past.

 

SWTOR lost the spacebar spammers, but instead of focusing on the players they had they tried to win them back, which lost revenue and players progressively over RotHC.

 

Read this:

 

http://swtoreconomics.com/2015/12/10/an-analysis-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-from-eas-financial-reports/

 

And tell me things didn't get worse over the period that "saved the game."

 

Whoever made the call to de-emphasize personal story gambled on story players staying and the "balance" that you all seem to think matters (it doesn't) bringing in more people.

 

It didn't.

 

You were wrong then.

 

You're wrong now.

 

BW and EA got greedy and alienated most of their players with the "story" they were telling. Now they're getting back on track and the numbers will reflect that.

Edited by JMCA
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I don't know why this always had to turn into a "us vs them" kind of tirade.

 

Hardcore gamers no longer dominate the industry. Study after study, including those posted here MANY times prove this without question....casual players rule the market, and are currently the majority of most MMOs playerbases, with a few notable exceptions.

 

That, however, does not mean that raiding is dead or dying. What it does mean is that the old rules no longer apply...if you want more folks to participate in raiding, it means findiing alternate ways to get them involved. The old carrots no longer work IMO.....because, generally speaking, gear is not the driving force for a casual player.

 

I do not think raiding should be abandoned...I do think raids need to transform. So they can have far wider appeal.

 

I don't raid, and with it's current state, I'm content to keep it that way, but I can get behind the above. If raids change a bit, it might not be so bad, and I might even tag along when people need an extra person along.

 

If my understanding of how raids work traditionally is right I might have a compromise that works. What if raids were restructured this way:

 

Trash mobs groups can be taken out individually, so that the group can split up to get through with them faster.

 

Mini bosses require a small core group, that knows their role well, to engage them directly while a secondary group works consoles, destroys secondary objectives, or some kind of simpler contribution that doesn't require knowing your role to the nth degree. Perhaps the secondary group's work sustains a buff that allows the core group to handle the boss on their own, but the secondary group doesn't have to actually get underfoot to help.

 

The main boss requires everyone to contribute directly to combat.

 

While players would still have to know their roles, this would cut down on how much you have to take on at once to be able to participate. Maybe even make it less scary for people to try. Also, time would be cut down. Traditional raids that take forever are going to be a hard sell because it's hard to find the time. Further, these changes could cut down on the draining effect on non raiders and thus encourage wider spread participation.

 

Just from what I manage to get through of Eternity Vault I was exhausted, frustrated, and pretty well convinced not to ever attempt another Op again. By having a secondary group worked into the design, people like me can hang back in the secondary group without getting burned out before even getting to the boss. Also, it would let us help without the group wiping because we misclicked once in our rotation.

 

For those totally into the raiding experience, it would let them be the stars of the show and test their skills without having to be completely held back by having less committed players tag along. They would basically be required to do all the stuff they would normally do but be able to rely on fewer highly skilled players for most of the raid. They would just have make sure everyone knew what to do by boss time as they wouldn't be able to completely carry anyone then.

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