In the Jedi Knight’s current state, there is quite a bit to learn and memorize--you need to understand active abilities, passive modifiers, selectable utilities, and how they all work together. Our goal is to make these relationships clearer and easier to understand, while also ensuring that the class retains its identity. PTS for the Jedi Sentinel will follow the same goals.

Why devote an expansion advertised feature to a demographic outside of MMO fans? This is an MMO RPG. The RPG portion is your character progression. This includes Abilities/Passives/Talents/Gear. Swtor isn't out of the norm hear save story choices in terms of MMO gameplay. Dumbing down the RPG features of an MMO RPG isn't what your fanbase wants as evident by not only your forums and reddit but also by the history of the genre itself.

Your target audience for this change, if not us, is for new players. But these changes are not only anti genre but historically turn away a large number of MMO fans. Look at these same tactics of pruning and simplification made in WoW and compare those with WoW's sub numbers of the course of said changes. So if your not targeting MMORPG fans, who is this for? It can only be people turned off by the genre staples that you are stripping.

I really think these wouldn't be as bad if you approached these "features" differently. You made half an expansion's advertised features for people not currently playing your game. And I'll be honest here, I believe it was done in a shady way to boot. Your feature page for the expansion and even the announcement on stream advertised with wording that is VERY different from the actual feature mechanics. Considering the feedback you were right to be afraid to be straight forward to the masses but extremely wrong to use bad faith and vague methods. This tells us one thing: You knew ahead of time a majority of your subscribers would be turned off. That didn't matter. You chose them over us. You also have the audacity to insult our intelligence by stating said feedback is something you value.

Which brings me to my final point. This post will change nothing outside of allowing myself and others who feel the same to vent. I will be playing consistently up to 7.0's release. Only because I want to relish the game before you alienate your game and hard-core fan base in favor fans who likely aren't fans of the MMORPG genre (in it's purest form) instead.

P.S: Anyone down for a mass, pre-NGE style, send off in game? Would alleviate watching developers ignore history, right?

Favoring casuals over your core fanbase

First presumption is that casuals comprise less of the % active players than anyone else.

Unsubstantiated presumption.

P.S: Anyone down for a mass, pre-NGE style, send off in game? Would alleviate watching developers ignore history, right?

Nicht mir. I'm looking forward to 7.0.

/fin

First presumption is that casuals comprise less of the % active players than anyone else.

Unsubstantiated presumption.

More likely quite the opposite really. I'll bet there are more "casuals" than hard core players.

More likely quite the opposite really. I'll bet there are more "casuals" than hard core players.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long.

Casual here, been subbed since July of 2013 and missed only a single month of subbing in 8+ years, so your generalization doesn't hold.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

You can build up this narrative if you like, but what you're doing is wrapping a narrative around your own opinion, i.e., that you fully dislike simplifying of the game, etc., etc., etc., etc.. with no proof of squat, and proffering that opinion as if the largess of players fall into that carefully curated story line.

You tell me, in any given public swimming pool, out of 100 people in it, how many are likely to be Olympic swimmers versus people doing good to cling to the side of the wall? Far more likely, as JQ suggested, that the opposite holds true from the OP's premise. There's far more casuals than anyone else.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. [/QUOTe]

As a "founder" I find your lack of faith disturbing. 😂

 

There's no correlation between "casual" and length of time playing the game. I originally started SWTOR on a PvP server with a clan full of "tryharders". Most of them left to go to WoW, sfter less than a year. I (casual) also left for a while to play GW2, but came back to SWTOR.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy.

I play GW2, it's even more casual friendly than this game is. The advantage of GW2 is though that there is a LOT more to do in that game than in SWTOR. The advantage of SWTOR is that it's SW so perhaps that's the reason why they have to cater to casuals because it seems that it being a SW MMO is the only real thing that sets it apart and makes players swallow a whole lot of crap.

But to say that casuals don't stay long here is the opposite of the truth.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

Sorry to disappoint :

** I'm somewhat "casual" in that I don't make the game a part time job.

** Primarily a solo player

** I'm NOT into face roll simplistic style of playing

** I really don't like being rolled up into such a major category simply because I don't FIT into a mold that someone wants to force me into !

Concerned for what is coming ... YES ... but more to the point what I'm NOT seeing:

** Items that made the game what it is

** further lack of content of the stories with depth

** proper communication to encourage the future production of a more positive outlook in areas where growth can have an equally more positive impact on the game.

And NO I'm not ready to start piling up the kindling wood around the stakes just yet !

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

I'm a casual who plays only for the story and the endgame called "Space Barbie", been here from KOTFE to this day (started before though, somewhere between RotHC and SoR iirc, and hated the game at that moment, left and came back when KOTFE came out and the things i didn't like were changed), never played any other MMO.

I'm actually fairly interested to see how the change in classes will play out.

Regardless of the situation .. turning this into another "us vs them" discussion in this entire affair is NOT helping anyone !!!

I agree with you, srsly we have had to deal with the kotet and kotfe , and yet we adapted to the changes , we adapted to the changes in our skill trees and the major changes in our story telling's ( Agents and BH's do NOT care about the force!!! and Chiss do not ever use the force unless they are children!! and i am still miffed about Theron ) But yet we still love the game...I too am looking forward to 7.O, going into the us vrs them game is just a rabbit hole that sadly never ends. Meh just enjoy the ride , and hope we don't turn into wow crap , they learned to late, been here since launch and haven't given up yet...To infinity and beyond lol

The "non-Casual" scene is shrinking if not remaining stale. Elitism and sheer hostility has prevented it from growing. Not to mention the over-complexity of the gearing system, class design, and extreme difficulty of associated content being a roadblock for some as well, though not for me. It's only a matter of time before it goes extinct. Then again, I'm surprised it's still around even, so maybe not.

Perhaps you should be grateful that they are developing both a new Operation and yet another Flashpoint just for you. At least "casuals" are getting something in regard to "pruning", even if it doesn't end up being the best idea.

Regardless of the situation .. turning this into another "us vs them" discussion in this entire affair is NOT helping anyone !!!

Exactly !

Not to mention the over-complexity of the gearing system, class design, and extreme difficulty of associated content being a roadblock for some as well

How is gearing complex? You have only a handful of stats not hard to prioritize and your gear is handed to you on a plate doing any kind of content. And if you want to make sure you are not making mistakes, you have plenty of guides to help you.

Which class design is hard? You only have to READ the skill tooltips to figure which ones synergize together. There is nothing hard in figuring a basic rotation, guides all over the web will help you refine one.

What "extreme difficulty of associated content" (extreme?!) are you talking about? I am still taking characters through the last bits of story content. While I still have no clue what the hell is happening in the Valkorion part of the Valkorion/Vitiate/Tenebrae boss fight, despite 8 toons that went through it, it is simply impossible to die unless you decide to /stuck in combat. That's how far the game is holding your hand. If we are talking Master modes, the least that people could do is be up front with their lack of knowledge... I can't count how many times I have seen people being knocked off the platform in Lost Island only to ask why they died.

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

This casual players stays because I am entertained by the story. The animation is beautiful. I enjoy my character gets to speak. The user interface I find easier to use than others. I can find the quest locations. I can do more than a couple of abilities. To use an ability I hit a key or point and click instead of needing to use key stroke or mouse click combinations.

It was quite obvious to type of player I was refferring to. If you choose to be offended because you label yourself a casual then thats not on me.

It is on you. You're the one who made the topic and did so out of ego/hubris. You're not saying anything that isn't being said in multiple topics already on the front page so why start another topic other than to make sure your voice is heard above all others as opposed to being one of many in another thread.

You're the one dictating what the game should and shouldn't be and to what people/players it should or shouldn't be trying to appeal to, so yeah it is on you.

It was quite obvious to type of player I was refferring to. If you choose to be offended because you label yourself a casual then thats not on me.

I think you're referring to someone like me?

I play a few times a year for a couple of weeks at a time (I have ADD and my interests/obsessions change on a whim). I've been here since 2016. But I have dropped a lot of money on the game and it is a good game. I love the "Space Barbie"!

I'm sure there really isn't any favouritism on EAs part that isn't justified in order to protect the game. Have a good day!

Casual here, been subbed since July of 2013 and missed only a single month of subbing in 8+ years, so your generalization doesn't hold.

you are in minority, most of casuals left long ago, i can tell it from my ranked experience - same people in queue on both sf and dm since season 9. You can say that "you see same people in queue because casuals aren't even trying ranked" but the problem is that online population in this game drops significantly which is a fact yet, as i said ranked community remains stable for years. Same for NiM ops because same people running it in guilds and only sometimes they do replacements with new players. Yet player population continues to drop as i said and it's a rhetorical question who is leaving from the game - hardcore players or casual

You can build up this narrative if you like, but what you're doing is wrapping a narrative around your own opinion, i.e., that you fully dislike simplifying of the game, etc., etc., etc., etc.. with no proof of squat, and proffering that opinion as if the largess of players fall into that carefully curated story line.

 

You tell me, in any given public swimming pool, out of 100 people in it, how many are likely to be Olympic swimmers versus people doing good to cling to the side of the wall? Far more likely, as JQ suggested, that the opposite holds true from the OP's premise. There's far more casuals than anyone else.

Yet most of players, including beta testers have already stated on forum that they disagree and dislike new simplifying changes. Who are these players? Can you tell us are they casual players or hardcore players? Of course not, but it's an obvious fact that most of players are not supporting ability pruning and dumbing the game

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy.

Just to briefly address this, while that might be true for most causal players, these 'casuals' make up the vast majority of online player base for all games. What does that mean? It means that when one of these people gets bored after a year and leaves for another game, another one just pops right in to take their place.

While player retention is an important metric for MMO's, especially subscription models, it's important to remember that in every game, player turnover is always going to be high. There are so many options available that when someone feels the least bit bored it's usually easier to just jump ship then it is to actually try to invest more in the current game. This is true of all games, and is not a condition that any can avoid.

These casual players are still the bulk of any player base, they're the 'fodder' if it makes you feel better and in a game where the casual contributes the same monthly sub as the 'hardcore' the math says you cater to the majority. Not liking the system doesn't alter reality.

most of players are not supporting ability pruning and dumbing the game

Most players --- meaning the ones who never bother reading the forums much less spout off on them --- as has been demonstrated with any upcoming release, are oblivious as to what's about to happen. What usually happens, people we've never heard of before will flood the forums complaining in complete shock about the change AFTER the release, and of course we can never hear from the non-subs on the forums.

you are in minority, most of casuals left long ago, i can tell it from my ranked experience - same people in queue on both sf and dm since season 9. You can say that "you see same people in queue because casuals aren't even trying ranked" but the problem is that online population in this game drops significantly which is a fact yet, as i said ranked community remains stable for years. Same for NiM ops because same people running it in guilds and only sometimes they do replacements with new players. Yet player population continues to drop as i said and it's a rhetorical question who is leaving from the game - hardcore players or casual

Ranked players and NiM players are stable groups but extremely SMALL groups - that's why you keep running into each other. But that's been the case for a while now. 4.0 cut a massive piece out of the raiders and 5.0 finished it off with GC. Since then it's been a very stable group but also a very small group.

Here's thing. If 5% of the population covers ranked PvP and NiM players, you might think that's not a whole lot but it's probably close to the truth since you keep running into each other Ops players before 4.0 hit already hit a low. Now I do not know how many there are exactly but for Eric to come out and say that not even 8% had even set foot into ToS is a real indication because that actually included SM. So really I think 5% is generous in my view.

So that means that you can lose a LOT of casuals before it cuts into the hardcore group.

Your anecdotal evidence is exactly that but if even you alone see the same faces all the time, then that means that the ranked players are a very minute group of players.