Elzen Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 It's worth noting that the given optimization/rotation yields higher DPS that is posed on the first page for 224. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goblin_Lackey Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) It's worth noting that the given optimization/rotation yields higher DPS that is posed on the first page for 224. Rotational changes will do that. The original rotation I had was also based on Rydarus's but it included Force Push in the 72s rotation for spacing reasons. The new optimal dps is 6606 @ 1229 Crit and 942 alacrity (Mastery stim version) with the changed rotation. Edited February 20, 2016 by Goblin_Lackey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCoolGamerProX Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Rotational changes will do that. The original rotation I had was also based on Rydarus's but it included Force Push in the 72s rotation for spacing reasons. The new optimal dps is 6606 @ 1229 Crit and 942 alacrity (Mastery stim version) with the changed rotation. Will you be making one for PVP ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) TL;DR: provide alternative DPS ranking with only the spec provided debuffs I've been using my carnage marauder only since 4.0, because I thought I was suddenly terrible with everything else. Until I found out that everybody and their dog uses the [Training Dummy Armor Reduction Module]. Which demonstrates something interesting: Some specs rely heavily on debuffs from others, while other classes are great on their own. Carnage, for example, doesn't benefit much from an armor debuff, because much of the damage happens in the gore window which ignores 100 % armor anyway, and it provides its own melee-damage-taken debuff. A force-damage-taken debuff would be nice, but doesn't make that much of a difference. Engineering on the other hand provides only a ranged-damage-taken debuff and area-damage-taken-debuff, but it relies heavily on others providing a tech-damage-taken und armor debuff. I gained around 700 DPS there from the [Training Dummy Armor Reduction Module]. In order to assemble good operation groups for 8, it would be very useful to display which spec needs which other spec present. I could imagine a table, for example: Rank | DPS | vs Average DPS | Spec name | benefit from debuffs where the "benefit form debuffs" might contain something like: Armor reduction (Arsenal / Vengeance / Rage) 4 % loss otherwise; Tech damage taken (Pyrotech / Advanced Prototype) 2 % loss otherwise Or even something interactive where you can click a checkbox for the classes present and it highlights who gets their prerequisites satisfied. (I do not know exactly which class provides which debuffs, so much here is guesswork or based on how it was in previous versions.) Edited February 23, 2016 by BanPearson TL;DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 TL;DR: provide alternative DPS ranking with only the spec provided debuffs (I do not know exactly which class provides which debuffs, so much here is guesswork or based on how it was in previous versions.) This chart provides all known debuffs: http://thefanaticalswordsman.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/damage-debuffs-chart-imperial.pdf I know this isn't the complete product you were asking about, but it's certainly a start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasCool Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) As a general rule, every spec that does not have an armor debuff benefits hugely from having one... all the other ones are more minor since most of those classes provide the other ones they need... Basically when making a group, make sure to have an armor debuff and the rest will take care of itself Edited February 23, 2016 by ThomasCool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) @UberSamoyed It helps, thanks! Edited February 23, 2016 by BanPearson UberSamoyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 As a general rule, every spec that does not have an armor debuff benefits hugely from having one... all the other ones are more minor Sounds very plausible; I'd still like to know the exact numbers of how much DPS is lost from missing certain debuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 As a general rule, every spec that does not have an armor debuff benefits hugely from having one... all the other ones are more minor since most of those classes provide the other ones they need... Basically when making a group, make sure to have an armor debuff and the rest will take care of itself This isn't strictly true. Lethality operatives do not provide an armor debuff, but their damage increase from having it is comparatively quite minimal. Pyro powertechs are in a similar boat. There is actually a methodical way of balancing availability of buffs with damage ratios to compute an optimal damage boost (the most a group can get turns out to be right around 14% overall). In general, it doesn't matter all that much though. Other class factors matter a lot more than debuffs. And, as you imply, the armor debuff is the most important one for most fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goblin_Lackey Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) TL;DR: provide alternative DPS ranking with only the spec provided debuffs One of the first things I added in was the ability to toggle all debuffs on or only self-applied. I didn't expect that I would never actually find a need to have it not always set to on. Here is the rankings for 224 with only self applied debuffs (without showing gear) 224 Gear with only Self-Applied Debuffs Rank - DPS - vs Average (6258) DPS --- Imperial || Republic 01 - 6731 - +7.55% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat 02 - 6585 - +5.21% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman 03 - 6582 - +5.17% --- Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery 04 - 6380 - +1.95% --- Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist 05 - 6373 - +1.83% --- Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance 06 - 6343 - +1.36% --- Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus 07 - 6308 - +0.80% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics 08 - 6281 - +0.36% --- Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration 09 - 6255 - -0.05% --- Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance 10 - 6238 - -0.32% --- Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian 11 - 6219 - -0.62% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech 12 - 6210 - -0.76% --- Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper 13 - 6186 - -1.16% --- Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter 14 - 6116 - -2.27% --- Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting 15 - 6070 - -3.02% --- Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur 16 - 5997 - -4.18% --- Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics 17 - 5976 - -4.52% --- Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity 18 - 5799 - -7.34% --- Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration Versus all Debuffs Applied: Rank - DPS - vs Average (6613) DPS --- Imperial || Republic 01 - 7068 - +6.88% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman 02 - 6857 - +3.68% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat 03 - 6796 - +2.75% --- Mercenary-Innovative Ordinance || Commando-Assault Specialist 04 - 6776 - +2.46% --- Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur 05 - 6718 - +1.59% --- Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance 06 - 6682 - +1.04% --- Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery 07 - 6657 - +0.66% --- Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian 08 - 6645 - +0.48% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech 09 - 6644 - +0.45% --- Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting 10 - 6607 - -0.09% --- Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance 11 - 6555 - -0.88% --- Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity 12 - 6537 - -1.15% --- Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration 13 - 6525 - -1.34% --- Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper 14 - 6474 - -2.11% --- Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus 15 - 6470 - -2.17% --- Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics 16 - 6439 - -2.64% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics 17 - 6353 - -3.93% --- Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration 18 - 6238 - -5.68% --- Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter Edited February 24, 2016 by Goblin_Lackey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Thank you so much, I hoped it'd be easy for you to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machricar Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Fixed Edited May 18, 2016 by Machricar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Can you please check what ThomasCool said and calculate with only armor debuff + class provided debuffs? For a group with only 4 DD, both extremes (only self debuffs & all debuffs) are unrealistic, and that might be close to a realistic setup. Maybe that provides a ranking and numbers very close to the all-debuff ranking. If not, we'd need a team composition tool, or watch out for team synergy manually. For example, avoid overlaps and wasted debuffs (like force / melee damage taken in a group that also has tech users or vice versa). The problem is that many classes don't provide what they need themselves. An Engineering Sniper, for example, needs a tech-damage-taken debuff (Susceptible?) but provides the less useful ranged-damage-taken (Marked?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_mK Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Can you please check what ThomasCool said and calculate with only armor debuff + class provided debuffs? For a group with only 4 DD, both extremes (only self debuffs & all debuffs) are unrealistic, and that might be close to a realistic setup. Maybe that provides a ranking and numbers very close to the all-debuff ranking. If not, we'd need a team composition tool, or watch out for team synergy manually. For example, avoid overlaps and wasted debuffs (like force / melee damage taken in a group that also has tech users or vice versa). The problem is that many classes don't provide what they need themselves. An Engineering Sniper, for example, needs a tech-damage-taken debuff (Susceptible?) but provides the less useful ranged-damage-taken (Marked?). he just did on the previous page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanPearson Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 That's with only self-provided debuffs. One of the most shocking things about the comparison between all debuffs and self-provided debuffs is that even the classes that bring their own sunder debuff do way worse without additional debuffs! One of the least affected is the carnage marauder (provides its own sunder + beat down); even that loses almost 2 % from the lacking "vulnerable", applied only by inquisitors / consulars in the group. ("vulnerable" gives 7 % to force attacks, I believe, times the 25 % of damage from force attacks in a typical carnage rotation, namely almost only devastating blast, ~= 1,8 %.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 That's with only self-provided debuffs. One of the most shocking things about the comparison between all debuffs and self-provided debuffs is that even the classes that bring their own sunder debuff do way worse without additional debuffs! One of the least affected is the carnage marauder (provides its own sunder + beat down); even that loses almost 2 % from the lacking "vulnerable", applied only by inquisitors / consulars in the group. ("vulnerable" gives 7 % to force attacks, I believe, times the 25 % of damage from force attacks in a typical carnage rotation, namely almost only devastating blast, ~= 1,8 %.) It's only 5%. And no spec is perfectly self-contained. The closest to it is Marksman... Corrosive Dart can be almost removed from the rotation except for Marked.. And as you can see from Bant's ratings, it goes from dead last by a lot to middle of the pack. Same goes for AP but Railshot is still a significant part of its damage, as is RB and Burns damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 I meant to post this yesterday, but here are the results from optimization under your conditions: Guardian - Vigilance Input Settings: Guardian - Vigilance ilvl 224, All Augment Combinations Tested, All Debuffs applied, 39.87% Operations Dummy, Output mode set to: Full Accuracy & Mastery Stim 5393 Mastery 6375 Endurance 2981 Power 1283 Critical 847 Alacrity 701 Accuracy 2 Critical Augments; 7 Alacrity Augments; 5 Accuracy Augments; 1 Hawkeye Crystal; 1 Eviscerating Crystal; Mastery Stim; Calculated Stats: (without Procs) Damage: 2822-3307 OH Damage: - Bonus Damage: 1852.4 Accuracy: 110.19% OH Accuracy: 76.19% Crit Chance: 38.78% Crit Bonus: 68.00% Bonus Special: 2632.9 Bonus Heal: 1901.8 Special Accuracy: 110.19% Special Crit Chance: 38.78% Special Crit Bonus: 68.00% Alacrity: 8.93% Health: 80505 Armor Rating: 7450 Damage Reduction: 36.24% Defense Chance: 5.00% Shield Chance: 0.00% Absorb Percent: 0.00% Mastery Relic Uptime: 30.57% Power Relic Uptime: 28.21% Average DPS: 6603 30% of time spent sub 30% HP 39.58 APM (Sorry for the formatting, Tab delineation and tables don't work on the forums) Ability, Tooltip, Average Damage, Normal Hit, Normal Crit, Crit Percent, Time between uses, DPS, Percent of Total; Blade Dance, 14314-15885, 14856.56, 3808.13, 6397.76, 44.18%, 11.02s, 1348.62, 20.43%; Overhead Slash, 8430-9354, 9251.43, 6760.62, 11628.2, 48.30%, 8.26s, 1119.74, 16.96%; Blade Storm, 5669-5848, 8551.48, 4393.37, 8551.48, 100.00%, 8.26s, 1035.03, 15.68%; Plasma Brand Dot, 5284, 8857.34, 1702.78, 2860.71, 44.18%, 11.02s, 804.04, 12.18%; Plasma Brand, 3204-3415, 5340.63, 4106.83, 6899.59, 44.18%, 11.02s, 484.8, 7.34%; Dispatch, 8100-8989, 8226.73, 6496.03, 10913.5, 39.18%, 19.96s, 412.23, 6.24%; Vigilant Thrust, 6870-7049, 6904.79, 5309.64, 8920.33, 44.18%, 17.92s, 385.27, 5.83%; Overhead Slash Dot, 1713, 2893.1, 370.79, 622.93, 44.18%, 8.26s, 350.17, 5.3%; Sundering Strike, 3698-4102, 3755.19, 2965.19, 4981.59, 39.18%, 13.22s, 284.07, 4.3%; Blade Storm Dot, 1131, 1910.85, 244.9, 411.44, 44.18%, 8.26s, 231.28, 3.5%; Saber Throw, 4800-5329, 4875.94, 3850.16, 6468.38, 39.18%, 33.05s, 147.54, 2.23%; Basic result seems to be a hawkeye crystal (worth a whole 0.02 more dps! /s) and then everything else crit. Thanks bant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decrepid Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Hi everyone Maybe I have missed something in a patch and BW nerfed DR or I am outright missing something but I'm hoping someone can help. I roll a Jugg tank and currently wrist, belt, legs and hands are 224 and the rest are 220 (armour only). Chest is the only non token piece (the mod is B lettered) for an armour rating of 13,071 ALL of my stats are marginally above Bants 220 figures with the exception of my defense which is 102 points below due to 220 and 216 comm implants which I have not got around to changing yet so my End is currently higher. The issue is my damage reduction is only showing at 50.35% which is WAY off the 73.71% posted. I am stimed, buffed and in the correct stance, so as I mentioned above did BW nerf DR and I missed that in the patch notes or am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance for any and all help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGITSJAD Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Hi everyone Maybe I have missed something in a patch and BW nerfed DR or I am outright missing something but I'm hoping someone can help. I roll a Jugg tank and currently wrist, belt, legs and hands are 224 and the rest are 220 (armour only). Chest is the only non token piece (the mod is B lettered) for an armour rating of 13,071 ALL of my stats are marginally above Bants 220 figures with the exception of my defense which is 102 points below due to 220 and 216 comm implants which I have not got around to changing yet so my End is currently higher. The issue is my damage reduction is only showing at 50.35% which is WAY off the 73.71% posted. I am stimed, buffed and in the correct stance, so as I mentioned above did BW nerf DR and I missed that in the patch notes or am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance for any and all help. His reduction and the armor damage reduction in-game are totally separate. The way his numbers work are, say there is a boss with only melee/ranged attacks, and you have a tank that can gear to reach 100% defense rating. The number he lists would be 100% reduction, but the armor damage reduction on the character would only be the >50% provided by the armor in the gear... Edited March 2, 2016 by OMGITSJAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRinger Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Hi there, I recently came back to the game, started gearing my tank up again and had a question. Is it worth it to keep the old 198 absorb mods instead of the new 216+ defense mods on my Powertech? Thanks in advance Edited March 2, 2016 by DarthRinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardimuer Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Hi there, I recently came back to the game, started gearing my tank up again and had a question. Is it worth it to keep the old 198 absorb mods instead of the new 216+ defense mods on my Powertech? Thanks in advance Answer: :-) I should have tried to give numbers for the "make the numbers bigger" case. The point is really the following… Imagine you have a perfectly itemized set of gear. Every slot is within 1-2% of exactly right (basically, you've nailed it to the mathematical ideal, in so far as the game's mod system allows). Then a new piece drops. The enhancement in this new piece represents a significant jump in stat budget (think: subsequent tier), but it causes your itemization to be out of balance. Now you have too much shield and defense, and not enough absorb. Do you put the enhancement in your gear? Answer: yes. Emphatically. The higher stat budget outweighs the imbalance in itemization. So I'm not saying that min-maxing is useless. I'll take any advantage I can get! Just that min-maxing is less important than overall stat budget increases. If you have to pick between the two, pick the latter. tl;dr = More stat is better than less stat, even if you wind up with less absorb rating, so you should use the higher rating defense mods. Edited March 2, 2016 by Gardimuer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRinger Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 tl;dr = More stat is better than less stat, even if you wind up with less absorb rating, so you should use the higher rating defense mods. Alrighty, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decrepid Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 His reduction and the armor damage reduction in-game are totally separate. The way his numbers work are, say there is a boss with only melee/ranged attacks, and you have a tank that can gear to reach 100% defense rating. The number he lists would be 100% reduction, but the armor damage reduction on the character would only be the >50% provided by the armor in the gear... Thank you mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britharen Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Answer: tl;dr = More stat is better than less stat, even if you wind up with less absorb rating, so you should use the higher rating defense mods. My impression is that dipstik did some calculations and found that the 198 abs were better for some fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Small change in tanks added health optimization might be on the horizon. The MK-26 220 Exarch relics now provide endurance. I suspect that the 224 Reactive Warding relic is still superior, based primarily on the notion that it contains defense and shield in it's secondary budget. But, compared to the 224 dps relic? You're losing -11 endurance for the gain of the proc'ed relic, which for most people will be Shield Amplification. I guess a strong argument could be made that the 220 MK-26 Shrouded Crusader is technically better for PT's, but we all know that clicky relics aren't that fashionable. I'm currently running the 224 RW and the MK-26 220 SA on my PT. Granted, stacking endurance is certainly a question of personal preference...so there's no finite number on what is best across the board. I've chosen above 80k as my goal so adding the MK-26 makes a lot of sense to me. Your results may vary. Still, if I were leveling up again, I believe I'd go with the MK-26's across the board until I got my 224's...on either build. Now, you're asking (as I initially did) why did they add endurance to the MK-26's? It's a silly question. The real question is why do all of the other tank relics contain mastery? Answer that and you're far more advanced in theory crafting than I will ever be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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