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Enough with the insane slows/roots and extreme mobility. Enough is Enough.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Enough with the insane slows/roots and extreme mobility. Enough is Enough.

septru's Avatar


septru
06.13.2021 , 12:47 AM | #41
I'm going to chime in here because I've been brought up a couple times both in this thread and the other thread as reasoning to "nerf operative." And while I do believe operatives should be nerfed, I don't agree with a lot of what is said here on the forums about the reasons why and how they should be nerfed...

1) When I initially wrote this thread, most of my complaints were focused and still are focused on off the GCD extreme movement enhancing abilities. These abilities include forcespeed, 75% hydrolics, 70% predation, phantomstride/holotraverse etc. These abilities are different from on the GCD movement enhancing abilities like operative roll because (and this is a big distinction) off the GCD movement enhancing abilities allow players to enhance their speed while continuously attacking, while on the GCD movement enhancing abilities forces a player to sacrifice their globals on enhancing their speed rather than attacking. This is not to say that on the GCD movement enhancing abilities increase dsync and fps drops more than off the GCD movement enhancing abilities - both on and off the GCD movement enhancing abilities cause dsync - but a player that dsyncs due to a on the GCD ability can continuously attack you while you can't attack them, but a player that dsyncs due to a on the GCD ability cannot attack you while dsyncing. This of course doesn't account for those unfortunately increasingly common times when players will dsync for a whole 5 seconds.

TLDR? I get why people complain about roll. I really do. Operatives roll is on a really short CD, the immunity is OP, and everytime they roll (which is a lot) they dsync. I get it. But I'd rather have an operative roll and dsync than a sorc or pt dsync, because operatives who dsync aren't doing anything to you but sorcs/pts that dsync are gonna be attacking you the whole time while you can't attack them back.

2)
Quote: Originally Posted by zerkington View Post
roll is the most fundamental skill ops have.
Basically what this guy said. Nerfing movement enhancing abilities for other classes is relatively simple. Most of the time it's just about nerfing the utility that buffs the speed or reduces the CD on the ability. But nerfing operative roll is extremely difficult especially since it's literally concealment's only defensive cooldown. With that said I do think there are ways to nerf roll. Bioware really screwed up in 6.0 with the creation of "charges." I won't go into detail here because it's a whole nother story, but Bioware's charges system basically can let good operatives roll 3 times in a matter of 5 seconds.... Anyways, nerfing roll is not as simple as nerfing other movement enhancing abilities.

3) Concealment operative is a strong class. In the hands of good players it is, yes, almost unkillable. But, and I'm sorry if this offends people, 90% of the players that play concealment operative in regs are utter garbage. If you're playing regs and having trouble with concealment operatives then maybe stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better. You can beat 90% of the concealment operatives in regs by just practicing and learning.

4) I and many other people that host tournaments separate and place limitations on operatives because operatives pose unfair advantages in tournament settings. These settings are frequently 1v1 or 2v2 environments. This is not the same as pvp instances that are 4v4 and 8v8 settings. Operatives are extremely strong in 1v1s, not so strong in 8v8s. Don't conflate the way we balance operatives in tournaments and the way operatives should be balanced in regular PvP. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

All of this is not to say that I don't think operatives should be nerfed. They should. But not for the reasons and not the way that the people on the forums say they should. I think the insane mobility and CC creep is a much larger issue that is even more important to PvP than balancing operatives. And more precisely, I think the problems tied to concealment ops are symptom of the more pervasive, fundamental issues of dsync.
-Prum

CheesyEZ's Avatar


CheesyEZ
06.13.2021 , 11:08 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by septru View Post
All of this is not to say that I don't think operatives should be nerfed. They should. But not for the reasons and not the way that the people on the forums say they should. I think the insane mobility and CC creep is a much larger issue that is even more important to PvP than balancing operatives. And more precisely, I think the problems tied to concealment ops are symptom of the more pervasive, fundamental issues of dsync.
^word.

I'd also add that super predation would be fine if it were tied to carnage and there wasn't a skill to make it FREE every 30s. taking away the tradeoff or the decision making about how to use your stacks seriously dumbs down the game and seriously increases the speed of everyone on the map. edit: I remember playing ranked WZs and we would go out of our way to make room for a combat sent and then we'd carefully strategize when he would sacrifice his stack for a speed buff. that was fun and it made the map obstacles relevant. we needed him at the start of CW, to swap sides in VS, to move the ball in the pit.

phasewalk is a well and good ability, and a very necessary one in arenas, but it literally breaks WZs like VS and CW b/c it allows sorcs completely circumvent barriers designed to make it take longer to move from one section of the map to another. and it's no coincidence that those barriers/WZs were created long before abilities like PW existed.

likewise, roll + holotraverse turns any HB, but especially the pit, into a mockery (between desync, holotraverse, and the slightest differential in ping).

fundamental WZ mechanics are rendered moot. it's probably easier to redesign/rethink movement abilities than it is to rewrite half the WZs, but that's where we are, imo.

zerkington's Avatar


zerkington
06.13.2021 , 12:11 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Sappharan View Post
Superman has a weakness. You handing out kryptonite?
you have a logical interjection?

zerkington's Avatar


zerkington
06.13.2021 , 01:45 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Sappharan View Post
Seriously, you want one class to have:
  1. Stealth
  2. Leap
  3. Heals
  4. Great DPS
  5. Mobility
  6. Reflect at 150% incoming damage
  7. 2 Hard Stuns

...all at the same time? That's some serious entitlement.

Someone else, who will remain unnamed, would like us to believe that operatives have weaknesses. To what? Electronet?

Operatives have LITERALLY no weaknesses. Or to be more precise, Concealment has no weaknesses. For the health of the game they need to be adjusted to be more in line with the rest of the classes.

The man who frequently runs tournaments has operatives separated from every other class because HE KNOWS that the class is leagues better than every other class in ability.

Operatives need to be depowered a bit for the health of the game. I suspect the reason people don't complain about it often is because it is simply howling at the moon.
you may want to be more specific. since you're not being specific a lot of what you're stating is incorrect. what you're actually trying to reference is concealment/scrapper, not operatives in general. even considering that, a lot of your points are not necissarily true.

1. yes

2. yes

3. yes

4. no. lethality has great overall damage but it doesn't have the survivability that you're all attributing to operatives in general, which is actually just concealment. concealment on the other hand, has good burst, but has trash overall damage. at least compared to the other burst damage specs.

5. have you ever even played operative? operatives have one of the worst, if not the worst amount of mobility in the game. even roll with immunity can't make up for it and that's only possible on concealment. lethality and medicine dont have roll immunity, and you wouldn't even want to take the "hit and run" utility unless you're playing concealment either.

in short, in comparison to other classes/specs regarding mobility (if we can consider marauder with pred to be a 10), concealment with hit and run and roll immunity is like a 5. lethality and medicine are like a 2.

6. blow for blow is just a utility.

7. two stuns... again only for concealment, and only with debilitators set.

your list of what makes operatives so "OP" looks quite sparse once you actually critique it. only 3 of the points you made are actually factual and relevant.

also,
Quote: Originally Posted by septru View Post
If you're playing regs and having trouble with concealment operatives then maybe stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better. You can beat 90% of the concealment operatives in regs by just practicing and learning.
^ this

i also don't know why everyone on the forums is always so heated about bioware never reading their "suggestions". i have no doubt they do read all these posts. in fact, i bet they come here all the time and use all the "suggestions" to determine exactly what they should never do, because 98% of the posts on here are just people raging about things in game that they dont understand.