I believe the following is true

 

The output of 4 watchman sentinels

=

The output of 5 less fortunate damage dealers

The output of 2 healers

 

There are other chasms in performance but this probably takes the biscuit.

 

Will there be any changes to spec disparity in this last month before everything goes live and is it worth players giving feedback on this.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Gyronamics

I would expect balance to be out of whack for at least the first few months of the expansion, balance is usually the hardest thing to work out in PTS as it requires players optimizing the toolsets available. If you have numbers to show I suggest posting them in the appropriate thread for the combat style.

Balance is going to be non existent until they do an actual balance patch.

A lot of classes losing a lot of key skills and some appear overtuned.

This is always true of any new expansion in basically any game.

They have to see how we use them under he new guidelines to know how to patch em.

In short, dont expect balance on any x.0 patch

Bear in mind those sentinels have lost a lot of their utility and cc. Someone who can -only- do melee damage should be better at doing damage vs someone else that has cc + movement buffs + self heals + range + stealth + whatever else. Edited January 19, 2022 by Savej

Bear in mind those sentinels have lost a lot of their utility and cc. Someone who can -only- do melee damage should be better at doing damage vs someone else that has cc + movement buffs + self heals + range + stealth + whatever else.

 

You are mistaken in your list of what you think sentinels (and I said watchman spec) are incapable of.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Gyronamics

You are mistaken in your list of what you think sentinels (and I said watchman spec) are incapable of.

 

I know they have a group heal, maybe it stacks well with other sents when you got beat, but outside of having a group with nothing but other watchman sents and where the other team stands together and doesn't cleanse, it doesn't compare with the self heals from almost every other class.

I know they have a group heal, maybe it stacks well with other sents when you got beat, but outside of having a group with nothing but other watchman sents and where the other team stands together and doesn't cleanse, it doesn't compare with the self heals from almost every other class.

 

Should it have self heals on par with other classes that cant do its damage? Thats a bit of having that cake and eat it to dont you think??

As you say you put out more damage, if you had comparable healing or utility you would be automatically OP.

People complain about mercs utility and healing, but you notice how they never mention the damage... its because it below par, as i t should be with more utility.

You are the literal opposite of that coin in many ways.

You gotta give up something for that damage or accept the niche your in.

I know they have a group heal, maybe it stacks well with other sents when you got beat, but outside of having a group with nothing but other watchman sents and where the other team stands together and doesn't cleanse, it doesn't compare with the self heals from almost every other class.

 

You come across as having zero experience of playing watchman sentinel especially on the PTS and you're using your assumptions to argue so I need to first tell you what its mechanics are, then what it does on the PTS and then you can understand the original example that you already have a strong opinion about?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Gyronamics

I believe the following is true

 

The output of 4 watchman sentinels

=

The output of 5 less fortunate damage dealers

 

Will there be any changes to spec disparity in this last month before everything goes live and is it worth players giving feedback on this.

Are your sentinels running Spiteful Saber? Because bet on that tactical getting nerfed or removed, since it doesn't work with their new sacrifice aoe for st ability in Force Fracture.

 

If spiteful goes live, the games got way bigger problems than just watchman is op.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cavtarus

Are your sentinels running Spiteful Saber? Because bet on that tactical getting nerfed or removed, since it doesn't work with their new sacrifice aoe for st ability in Force Fracture.

 

If spiteful goes live, the games got way bigger problems than just watchman is op.

 

Sure there's reasons we can point to for damage and healing being what it is.

 

But the question is, is the PTS forum a place to bring up performance numbers before it ships to live.

 

I'm gonna do it.

 

It's not a bug, someone has deliberately written in the 7.0 perks which enable it.

 

Melting Centre perk = Force Melt grants 10 Centering

Burning Centre perk = Critical burns generate 2 Centering

 

It means Zen is available to do 6% max health healing x 4 players on Force Melt cooldown which is 12s.

 

So for 4 players of 400,000hp each that is 8000hps to the group because this is percentage max health healing. More max health and having alacrity increases this number.

 

On live its more like 20s to get the 30 stacks for Zen & 300,000hp players which gives us 3600hps.

 

Greatly increasing the usage of Zen % healing combined with increased HP pools means group healing more than doubles from 3600hps to 8000hps in 7.0.

 

On top of that is Plasma Blades [passive] healing 15% of dot damage to the sentinel only and that scales with gear so it's harder to be specific. The Zen spam from drowning in Centering causes all dots to crit which results in more damage to turn into 15% healing. That will be a reason for damage being what it is certainly.

 

On top of that is Inspired Focus [perk] which will heal 1% (of the now 400,000hp bar) on every use of focus. That hasn't changed it simply got better with the large increase in max health.

 

That is how one Watchman Sentinel in 7.0 is able to produce the healing of 1/2 a healer while doing exceptional damage (maybe #2 on PTS). Someone decided Zen should be usable every 12 seconds (without alacrity) and % healing does well when you increase everyone's HP by 33% but don't increase stat based damage/healing by that amount.

 

I'm more interested in the difference between the worst and best DPS as it currently stands but I thought the Watchman situation was worth starting on.

 

Anyway, do the devs want to hear this kind of thing.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Gyronamics

The output of 4 watchman sentinels

 

Thats your point; Class stacking?

I believe the following is true

 

The output of 4 watchman sentinels

=

The output of 5 less fortunate damage dealers

The output of 2 healers

 

There are other chasms in performance but this probably takes the biscuit.

 

Will there be any changes to spec disparity in this last month before everything goes live and is it worth players giving feedback on this.

Thats your point; Class stacking?

 

Clearly not. I encourage you to continue reading and not isolate one line to invent a claim.

 

4 characters are required to get the full effect of the group healing

4 watchman sentinels as the example allows the whole numbers (characters) of comparable output of 5 lesser dps and 2 healers

Edited January 20, 2022 by Gyronamics

Blade blitz, Guarded by the force, and Force Camo are now utilities. You take one and lose the other two. Pacify is just straight up gone from the game.

 

You could DOUBLE the damage of sentinels and it still wouldn't make a difference in ranked arenas because all sentinels are going to be killed on sight. They don't stand a chance. With all of the massive crit buffs that Deception and especially Concealment are getting, you're going to see the enemies for about 2 seconds before your corpse hits the ground.

Edited January 20, 2022 by HaoZhao

Blade blitz, Guarded by the force, and Force Camo are now utilities. You take one and lose the other two. Pacify is just straight up gone from the game.

 

They made Force Camo baseline for Sentinels.

 

Now your choices are Guarded by the Force, Blade Blitz, and Force Stasis.

Thats your point; Class stacking?

 

--- >

 

Clearly not. I encourage you to continue reading...

 

--- >

 

4 watchman sentinels as the example...

 

 

 

4 characters are required to get the full effect of the group healing

 

4+ Characters are required to get the full effect of group healing thats doing some sorc/oper/merc Healer.

4 synchronised orbital strikes from 4 Snipers will take down mob groups instantly

4 ballistic shields from 4 snipers in a row will mitigate damage to an extend that one healer can dpsing

and so on...

 

Please tell me what your point is? The Group healing ONE Sent does is too strong and the damage too high?

Edited January 20, 2022 by Xhuuyaa

Clearly not. I encourage you to continue reading and not isolate one line to invent a claim.

 

4 characters are required to get the full effect of the group healing

4 watchman sentinels as the example allows the whole numbers (characters) of comparable output of 5 lesser dps and 2 healers

 

Will there be any changes to spec disparity in this last month before everything goes live and is it worth players giving feedback on this.

 

The real question Xhuuyaa is what you want to say. You're not saying I'm wrong and you're not replying to what I actually say.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Gyronamics

So odd that you keep quoting yourself. Seems like a classic case of:

 

Rock: Paper is overpowered. Nerf Paper. Scissors are fine.

 

You can just as easily stack other classes such as Merc/Commando and have a group that can self heal and DPS. Remember those first Revan HM clears? Those were all Merc/Commando DPS and Heals. You provided some math, but honestly theoretical healing doesn't equal actual healing. Over healing does exist. It isn't like 4 Sentinels/Marauders are going to be able to properly align their Zen/Berserk windows to maintain some sort of sustained healing.

 

The way you are getting so defensive and attacking a specific class makes you look like a Rock. Until you can provide proof of someone using 4 Sentinels/Marauders to trivialize some actual hard Veteran Mode or Master Mode content, it doesn't seem like a practical MM Ops or Ranked PvP makeup.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Barnard

1) A person who has actually played and tested on the PTS and knows what's what

 

2) A person with no PTS experience but determined to "defend" their class with trash talk.

 

It's like a beacon of light next to each person posting.

1) A person who has actually played and tested on the PTS and knows what's what

 

So, you have tested with 4 Sents at the same time? I'm impressed.

Would you mind share some numbers from this test?

Edited January 20, 2022 by Xhuuyaa

Absolutely mind boggling that players have an opinion on PTS performance when they can't be bothered to get on the PTS so how would you know what any number should look like.

 

You going to compare to your testing?

 

There was the fat post I made on the first page describing in detail the mechanics.

 

Here's cola streaming https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1265776486

 

I fully expect to hear that people in group (2) have no idea what they're looking at. Why would they.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Gyronamics

Absolutely mind boggling that players have an opinion on PTS performance when they can't be bothered to get on the PTS so how would you know what any number should look like.

 

You going to compare to your testing?

 

There was the fat post I made on the first page describing in detail the mechanics.

 

Here's cola streaming https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1265776486

 

I fully expect to hear that people in group (2) have no idea what they're looking at. Why would they.

 

No surprise at all that you made a "fat" post on the PTS forum about a DPS commando, one of the most powerful specs in the game at the moment. There are a couple of problems with your analysis. First and foremost, the Watchmen spec is a DOT spec so a lot of it's damage is easily mitigated, significantly reducing it's real output. It is also a complicated spec to play since you need to keep your buffs up by going through a fairly complex rotation. Finding 4 skilled Watchmen players at random is unlikely. Watchman has always been a potentially strong but difficult to play class. Stacking Watchmen is no different that stacking Commando's or any other mixed ability classes. As a final note, the Commando that is on the PTS right now is about where the Sentinel was before people tested it, complained about it's weakness, and got Bioware to fix it. It is therefore very likely that your Commando class will get an upgrade in damage output at low levels just like the Sentinel/Marauder did and be right back at the top of the DPS board again..

Yes I posted feedback saying the levelling experience for a new player will suck and involve spamming 1 ability.

 

Or was it the one where I said a 1% damage buff legendary is a joke on account of it being a 20 level old 2pc set bonus.

 

You didn't read it did you

 

Group 2 players willing to say anything to pack the thread with trash talk because the factual topic is factual and they have no grounds to say it's a lie.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Gyronamics

Yes I posted feedback saying the levelling experience for a new player will suck and involve spamming 1 ability.

 

Or was it the one where I said a 1% damage buff legendary is a joke on account of it being a 20 level old 2pc set bonus.

 

You didn't read it did you

 

Group 2 players willing to say anything to pack the thread with trash talk because the factual topic is factual.

 

It's the one where you were complaining about the leveling experience which was how I knew you were comparing a fixed class (Sentinel Watchman) to a class that had not been updated, so yes, I read it.

 

Edit: Which is for reference the same place all Sentinels were back before Bioware delayed the launch of 7.0

Edited January 21, 2022 by DWho

I wouldn't compare to commando for the simple reason I believe commando doesn't have the worst output on the PTS.

 

 

So yeah the thread is actually about is the PTS forum a place to question current balance before it goes live. Which is soon and getting closer.

 

It's currently being hijacked by people panicking that I mentioned Watchman.

 

We could discuss a whole lot more specs if anyone gave a damn.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Gyronamics

I wouldn't compare to commando for the simple reason I believe commando doesn't have the worst output on the PTS.

 

 

So yeah the thread is actually about is the PTS forum a place to question current balance before it goes live. Which is soon and getting closer.

 

It's currently being hijacked by people panicking that I mentioned Watchman.

 

We could discuss a whole lot more specs if anyone gave a damn.

 

Well, I'm pretty confident the blowback about the Sentinel and Guardian nerfs did influence Bioware to fix things, so I'd say the PTS forum is the place to bring up class deficiencies though class balance is more of an intangible and is highly dependent on player skill. An unskilled player playing a skill heavy class will perform much worse than a skilled one so drawing the line for class balance is complicated (too many people use pure combat dummy DPS numbers to make comparisons and leave out inherent benefits of ranged classes over melee classes). I'd focus on how the class feels to play compared to Live, as that is the only real test available on the PTS since skilled group players are few and far between there (for a variety of reasons)