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How do the changes look in terms of pvp?


ralphieceaser

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Definitely welcoming all the changes to see how it ll change pvp, based on what you ve seen which classes seem to be doing well based on all the abilities that are being removed or limited in choice so you cant have all those hyper defensive passives together?

 

Are merc defenses taken down a peg, are we gonna start seeing more dps powertechs around that dont get deleted etc

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Definitely welcoming all the changes to see how it ll change pvp, based on what you ve seen which classes seem to be doing well based on all the abilities that are being removed or limited in choice so you cant have all those hyper defensive passives together?

 

Are merc defenses taken down a peg, are we gonna start seeing more dps powertechs around that dont get deleted etc

 

No, mercs, lightning Sorcs and operatives will still be the meta and Madness Sorcs are so OP on the PTS that everyone will play them if they aren’t fixed.

Rage Juggs have been nerfed into the ground and won’t be viable in ranked and maybe not even regs. Have to wait and see if they get some special gear that helps.

PTs, Maras and Sins should be ok. I’m not sure about snipers as I’ve not seen much feedback.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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Are merc defenses taken down a peg, are we gonna start seeing more dps powertechs around that dont get deleted etc

I kinda think you're stuck in 5.x if your view of PT dps is just blood in the water, b/c anyone who knows how to play AP is going to get their dmg in before dying (w/o heals or guard), and with trinity are probably the best dps in the game.

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Rage Juggs have been nerfed into the ground and won’t be viable in ranked and maybe not even regs.

I feel the need to mention that at no point during this entire season have Rage Juggs been viable in ranked pvp. And that 90% of the time people were qing Rage Jugg, they were meming. However I agree, with the changes made to Grit Teeth, Juggernauts will not be very viable in 7.0 unless they get a major buff we do not yet know about, or unless they have a pocket healer in regs.

Edited by xXSchmedlyXx
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No, mercs, lightning Sorcs and operatives will still be the meta.

 

So wait, they are nerfing many classes by removing or reducing the efficiency of their defensives yet merc with the don of godlike dcds and operative with its non stop resist/dodge, heals and strong damaged are not affected by all the pruning?

I thought they would be the prime candidates for some dcd reduction.

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So wait, they are nerfing many classes by removing or reducing the efficiency of their defensives yet merc with the don of godlike dcds and operative with its non stop resist/dodge, heals and strong damaged are not affected by all the pruning?

I thought they would be the prime candidates for some dcd reduction.

 

Pretty much yes. Mercs and operatives seem to be the least affected, while poor old rage Juggs that are already pretty crap in ranked are getting swatted into the ground.

 

My analogy is some underskilled dev loving merc and operative was once felt-up by some dirty skilled Jugg in pvp who had their way with them. So now all dps Juggs will forever live in purgatory and Mercs and operatives will maintain their power to make sure no other class can threaten them ;)

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I feel the need to mention that at no point during this entire season have Rage Juggs been viable in ranked pvp. And that 90% of the time people were qing Rage Jugg, they were meming. However I agree, with the changes made to Grit Teeth, Juggernauts will not be very viable in 7.0 unless they get a major buff we do not yet know about, or unless they have a pocket healer in regs.

 

Exactly my point. Rage Juggs didn’t need to be nerfed so hard. I gave up telling BioWare on the pts because they don’t listen to any of the feedback by anyone on dps Juggs / guardians. It’s obvious when you look at every other class that they’ve progressively listened with each pts build, but not for Juggs. They just don’t give a ****

 

It only seems BioWare listened to all the underskilled reg whiners about rage Juggs being unkillable on their operatives and mercs while in grit teeth.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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It only seems BioWare listened to all the underskilled reg whiners about rage Juggs being unkillable on their operatives and mercs while in grit teeth.

I could not agree more. The only reason Grit Teeth was nerfed was because of regs players. Grit teeth wasn’t even meta in pve, the only people who complained were regs players. It’s just another example of BioWare not caring about ranked anymore and devoting all of their focus for pvp to regs.

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It’s just another example of BioWare not caring about ranked anymore and devoting all of their focus for pvp to regs.

 

lolwut? this game's balance was never great, but it was turned on its head b/c of solo ranked. every solo dps class has enough dcds and escapes to play like a tank. most of that **** exists because solo ranked. there's no dirth of tanks and heals in regs.

 

and yes, that does make most players seem immortal in regs just for knowing how to "roll" their cds.

 

here's another way to look at it, before the last major server mergers, there were a few players, the best players on the server, who could make any spec seem immortal in regs. they were also the players vying for all-galaxy titles. today? maybe half the players in any WZ can stall a node to the degree that only someone like stalkuh could have previously. I know ppl knock mercs for their mindless dcds, but the fact of the matter is every dps class is too tanky, and when some clown plays a real tank and decides to stall a node, it's just incredibly eyeroll.

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Pretty much yes. Mercs and operatives seem to be the least affected, while poor old rage Juggs that are already pretty crap in ranked are getting swatted into the ground.

 

My analogy is some underskilled dev loving merc and operative was once felt-up by some dirty skilled Jugg in pvp who had their way with them. So now all dps Juggs will forever live in purgatory and Mercs and operatives will maintain their power to make sure no other class can threaten them ;)

 

Rage Jugs haven't been viable in ranked in a long time. But they might actually be decently suited to murdering madness, last I check they can get the full immunity on leap.

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lolwut? this game's balance was never great, but it was turned on its head b/c of solo ranked. every solo dps class has enough dcds and escapes to play like a tank. most of that **** exists because solo ranked. there's no dirth of tanks and heals in regs.

 

and yes, that does make most players seem immortal in regs just for knowing how to "roll" their cds.

 

here's another way to look at it, before the last major server mergers, there were a few players, the best players on the server, who could make any spec seem immortal in regs. they were also the players vying for all-galaxy titles. today? maybe half the players in any WZ can stall a node to the degree that only someone like stalkuh could have previously. I know ppl knock mercs for their mindless dcds, but the fact of the matter is every dps class is too tanky, and when some clown plays a real tank and decides to stall a node, it's just incredibly eyeroll.

Again, everything you just stated is based on either regs or inexperience in ranked. I highly disagree with everything you just said. Every solo class does not have enough dcds to escape. There is a reason that pts are targeted first in pretty much every single ranked game. They have nothing.

 

And I am never going to complain that people are "immortal" in regs when they are properly juggling dcds. I myself have taken over 3 million damage as a merc in regs without dying once. That's not immortality and that's not mindless dcds. That's me knowing when to pop dcds and other players not knowing how to counter them. People complain that mercs dcds are "mindless" and they have "3 healthbars" but that's just not true. The only reason a mercs dcds seem "overpowered" is because the people complaining about them have no clue how to counter them. These are the same people who tunnel into reflect and give mercs a second heal to full.

 

And I don't believe that any class is "too tanky" in this game. Any ranked pvper will tell you that. Merc dcds are very skill based and depend entirely on knowing when to pop certain dcds in ranked. Sage dcds are incredibly hard to juggle properly in ranked. Sniper is arguably the hardest class to juggle dcds on, in ranked pvp currently. Juggernaut dcds depend on being able to kite properly. Operatives are not "tanky" in the slightest, by all standards they are a very squishy class, being only one of 2 classes that can't pop a cooldown in a hard stun. And shadows are incredibly squishy, all of their "tankiness" comes from being able to stealth.

 

Changing Grit Teeth was done to satisfy the people in regs who complained that it was impossible to cap a node while a full mit immortal jugg with Grit Teeth was stalling. No one with any credibility or knowledge of ranked pvp would complain about Grit Teeth. In my opinion Grit Teeth was the only reasons juggernauts were viable for ranked in 6.0.

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And I am never going to complain that people are "immortal" in regs

 

I can confirm that, if you know how to play and are focused on survival you can always survive through good use of dcds, escapes and positioning as any dps class even if you started playing it, I rarely ever die in regs that I am playing casually because it is a different game with a lot more people to grab people's attention, unless you have 3 people specifically hunt you and try to kill you no matter what every time you are alive, you cannot compare it to ranked arenas I agree.

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Again, everything you just stated is based on either regs or inexperience in ranked. I highly disagree with everything you just said. Every solo class does not have enough dcds to escape. There is a reason that pts are targeted first in pretty much every single ranked game. They have nothing.

complete and total /eyeroll

 

of course your go to is PTs. I have news for you, PT dcds are just fine. in fact, that's what the baseline should be for every dps.

 

I didn't say grit teeth was the devil (although combined with some of the other garbage in 6.x and mostly centered around the tank spec, it is a bit broken). in fact, I believe I acknowledged that BW is (predictably) "pruning" the wrong things, cuz that's what BW does.

 

literally every other class has unnecessary tools doled out to them specifically so that they can be self-sufficient (i.e., play without guard and healer support), and that, my friend, is fueled by solo ranked.

 

edit: I would throw sorc into the "fine as is" dcds as well.

 

and I'll quote myself again with emphasis, because I get the feeling you read what you wanted to rather than what I wrote. there's a palable difference in survivability when one has dcds up and one simply knows how to roll them across the board.

 

and yes, that does make most players seem immortal in regs just for knowing how to "roll" their cds.

 

here's another way to look at it, before the last major server mergers, there were a few players, the best players on the server, who could make any spec seem immortal in regs. they were also the players vying for all-galaxy titles. today? maybe half the players in any WZ can stall a node to the degree that only someone like stalkuh could have previously. I know ppl knock mercs for their mindless dcds, but the fact of the matter is every dps class is too tanky, and when some clown plays a real tank and decides to stall a node, it's just incredibly eyeroll.

 

again, things have changed...noticeably...in solo survivability. everyone (hi, welcome to rhetoric, read: "most") have too many dcds/escapes. some caked into their class, others from shared talent options, others from tacticals, and a few even from ill-conceived gear sets.

Edited by CheesyEZ
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Again, everything you just stated is based on either regs or inexperience in ranked. I highly disagree with everything you just said. Every solo class does not have enough dcds to escape. There is a reason that pts are targeted first in pretty much every single ranked game. They have nothing.

 

And I am never going to complain that people are "immortal" in regs when they are properly juggling dcds. I myself have taken over 3 million damage as a merc in regs without dying once. That's not immortality and that's not mindless dcds. That's me knowing when to pop dcds and other players not knowing how to counter them. People complain that mercs dcds are "mindless" and they have "3 healthbars" but that's just not true. The only reason a mercs dcds seem "overpowered" is because the people complaining about them have no clue how to counter them. These are the same people who tunnel into reflect and give mercs a second heal to full.

 

And I don't believe that any class is "too tanky" in this game. Any ranked pvper will tell you that. Merc dcds are very skill based and depend entirely on knowing when to pop certain dcds in ranked. Sage dcds are incredibly hard to juggle properly in ranked. Sniper is arguably the hardest class to juggle dcds on, in ranked pvp currently. Juggernaut dcds depend on being able to kite properly. Operatives are not "tanky" in the slightest, by all standards they are a very squishy class, being only one of 2 classes that can't pop a cooldown in a hard stun. And shadows are incredibly squishy, all of their "tankiness" comes from being able to stealth.

 

Changing Grit Teeth was done to satisfy the people in regs who complained that it was impossible to cap a node while a full mit immortal jugg with Grit Teeth was stalling. No one with any credibility or knowledge of ranked pvp would complain about Grit Teeth. In my opinion Grit Teeth was the only reasons juggernauts were viable for ranked in 6.0.

I agree almost completly with this post. The only thing I desagree is that operatives arent "tanky".Not the class as a whole,but one spec in particular is most of the times way too hard to kill, and still hits pretty hard for someone with so much survivability and mobility. The concealment operative gets way too much immunity time with their rolls. This,Plus all the dmg they can make,makes em unbalanced imo. But about mercs and juggs I agree completly. Mercs dcds are pretty easy to counter and takes skills for the merc to make good use of em. And jugg's grit teeth was never a problem for me. I only have a problem with em being so tanky as immortal juggs,and still being able do make more dmg than most of the actual dps classes. A tank shouldnt be able to do alot of dps,but their surbibability was just fine. Now, without grit teeth,the other 2 specs gonna struggle to survive in both regs and ranked.

Edited by DougTheNoob
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I agree almost completly with this post. The only thing I desagree is that operatives arent "tanky".Not the class as a whole,but one spec in particular is most of the times way too hard to kill, and still hits pretty hard for someone with so much survivability and mobility. The concealment operative gets way too much immunity time with their rolls. This,Plus all the dmg they can make,makes em unbalanced imo. But about mercs and juggs I agree completly. Mercs dcds are pretty easy to counter and takes skills for the merc to make good use of em. And jugg's grit teeth was never a problem for me. I only have a problem with em being so tanky as immortal juggs,and still being able do make more dmg than most of the actual dps classes. A tank shouldnt be able to do alot of dps,but their surbibability was just fine. Now, without grit teeth,the other 2 specs gonna struggle to survive in both regs and ranked.

 

nah man. he's stuck in this solo ranked world, around which all of these dcds are based. and in that scenario, it is fairly balanced. my point, and I thought this was bordering on obvious, is that classes have been balanced for solo ranked, where most of the time you don't have a dedicated healer and tank. and in which most dps classes have a slew of abilities designed to make them playable without healer or tank present.

 

those same expanded dcds/immunities/escapes make it easy af for any class to run rampant through WZs. I'm seeing players survive for lengths of time in WZs that only the top tier players would have done when there were fewer cds, escapes, etc. again, not sure how that's even contestable. the only difference is that it's balanced solo whereas it's made the WZ maps a joke.

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What annoys me about the Jugg nerfs isn’t the changes to Grit teeth because I honestly never used it. It’s the nerfs to Juggs actual DCDs and making us choose which ones to take. All the while, Operatives and Mercs pretty much get to keep everything that makes them hard to kill. They will still have more survivability than the current Jugg builds and have more DPS potential. No one in their right mind is going to choose to use a rage Jugg in pvp anymore. Which really pisses me off because it’s my favourite class. Edited by TrixxieTriss
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What annoys me about the Jugg nerfs isn’t the changes to Grit teeth because I honestly ever used it. It’s the nerfs to Juggs actual DCDs and making us choose which ones to take. All the while, Operatives and Mercs pretty much get to keep everything that makes them hard to kill. They will still have more survivability than the current Jugg builds and have more DPS potential. No one in their right mind is going to choose to use a rage Jugg in pvp anymore. Which really pisses me off because it’s my favourite class.

I agree completely. The Juggernaut changes were made without pvp in mind, and I'm 90% sure they were made without pve in mind. Forcing Juggernauts to choose between several key dcds, but allowing operatives and mercs to keep basically all of their dcds is dumb.

 

There's no other word for it.

 

It's just dumb.

 

What pisses me off more though is the fact that people are going to have to change class mains simply because juggernauts will not be viable in pvp. No one should be forced to change classes simply because the devs ruined it.

 

Ever.

Edited by xXSchmedlyXx
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nah man. he's stuck in this solo ranked world, around which all of these dcds are based. and in that scenario, it is fairly balanced. my point, and I thought this was bordering on obvious, is that classes have been balanced for solo ranked, where most of the time you don't have a dedicated healer and tank. and in which most dps classes have a slew of abilities designed to make them playable without healer or tank present.

 

those same expanded dcds/immunities/escapes make it easy af for any class to run rampant through WZs. I'm seeing players survive for lengths of time in WZs that only the top tier players would have done when there were fewer cds, escapes, etc. again, not sure how that's even contestable. the only difference is that it's balanced solo whereas it's made the WZ maps a joke.

I'm not going to lie, I am stuck in my solo ranked world. I want to see classes dcds balanced around solo ranked because that's what I care about.

 

You are stuck in your regs objectives world. I am stuck in my ranked world.

 

We both want to see changes made that benefit each others preferred content.

 

I will push for class balancing to benefit ranked pvp as I want ranked to be balanced. I'm not going to push for balancing classes for regs, as I care about regs about as much as you care about ranked.

Edited by xXSchmedlyXx
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I'm not going to lie, I am stuck in my solo ranked world. I want to see classes dcds balanced around solo ranked because that's what I care about.

 

You are stuck in your regs objectives world. I am stuck in my ranked world.

 

We both want to see changes made that benefit each others preferred content.

 

I will push for class balancing to benefit ranked pvp as I want ranked to be balanced. I'm not going to push for balancing classes for regs, as I care about regs about as much as you care about ranked.

 

you are 100% right! the abilitty to survive in ranked should be the balancing factor-not this **** show that is regs pvp. and plz bioware stop listining to the whiny regs players when you think of balancing aou are ruining your game by doing that!

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Bioware could solve concealment operative's rampant proliferation/domination by just getting rid of the "Shadow Operative Elite" passive. There is no need for it considering that the other op specs can't get it and do just fine. Furthermore a lot of other classes are losing(being forced to choose between existing) dcd's that do the EXACT same thing with a 1 min + cd. Could be replaced with lethality ops "Quickening" passive for the instant heal after a roll on a 10 sec cd. Removing the former and introducing the latter would bring a greater homogeneous unity between the specs that would be easier for players to transition between specs.

 

As for mercs, they are in a rough spot. Their damage is lacking comparatively to other ranged classes, but I don't think it would be justice to say "strip a dcd and give damage". Maybe something like a new passive that can be chosen at level 80. Something like boosting kolto (proposed) "Maldolorian Fervor" , Channel the Spirit of Mandalore upon dropping below 30% max health, purging all negative effects granting x% increased health and damage for 'x'seconds. All bonuses lost upon expiry.

 

Idk what do you guys think?

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From all the updates on the pts with the information we have right now, I would break it down like this

 

 

TOP 5 DPS

Madness

Marksman (They really didn't get touched while every class got weaker)

PT AP

Concealment

Lighting

Edited by TmoneyTime
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I'm not going to lie, I am stuck in my solo ranked world. I want to see classes dcds balanced around solo ranked because that's what I care about.

 

You are stuck in your regs objectives world. I am stuck in my ranked world.

 

We both want to see changes made that benefit each others preferred content.

 

I will push for class balancing to benefit ranked pvp as I want ranked to be balanced. I'm not going to push for balancing classes for regs, as I care about regs about as much as you care about ranked.

no. I don't think so.

 

I want to see dcds balanced across the board (most classes) by pruning them rather than by adding to them. that does not ruin solo ranked. dps output is much more easily managed than dcd effectiveness. but BW has piled on one dcd tool after another to patch issues every class is having (mostly in solo ranked). it's just easier to throttle up/down dmg than dcds b/c dcds impact mechanics a lot more than normalizing dps output.

 

fwiw, I like arenas, and I've liked solo ranked in the past. I enjoy watching it now. on the other hand, 80%(?) of the pvp in this game is that objective PVP stuff. I'm not saying "nerf X to make bad players happy." but stop building abilities into (practically) every class that render the objective maps a joke. b/c, as I know I've repeated a few times (apologies), medicore players are doing things in objective WZs that required a lot more skill before (almost) every class got all sorts of immunities, mobility boosts, escapes, and reflects.

 

and yes, that would benefit WZ maps more than ranked arenas, but it doesn't hurt solo ranked.

Edited by CheesyEZ
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Bioware could solve concealment operative's rampant proliferation/domination by just getting rid of the "Shadow Operative Elite" passive. There is no need for it considering that the other op specs can't get it and do just fine. Furthermore a lot of other classes are losing(being forced to choose between existing) dcd's that do the EXACT same thing with a 1 min + cd. Could be replaced with lethality ops "Quickening" passive for the instant heal after a roll on a 10 sec cd. Removing the former and introducing the latter would bring a greater homogeneous unity between the specs that would be easier for players to transition between specs.

 

As for mercs, they are in a rough spot. Their damage is lacking comparatively to other ranged classes, but I don't think it would be justice to say "strip a dcd and give damage". Maybe something like a new passive that can be chosen at level 80. Something like boosting kolto (proposed) "Maldolorian Fervor" , Channel the Spirit of Mandalore upon dropping below 30% max health, purging all negative effects granting x% increased health and damage for 'x'seconds. All bonuses lost upon expiry.

 

Idk what do you guys think?

 

The Operative change would be a solid idea, but honestly I think the biggest problem with them is having top tier burst, top tier control, and top tier utility (reflect, healing, immunity). The easiest fix for Operatives would be to make them choose either burst or control, but not both at the same time.

 

Ex: If they go top tier burst path they can't have double hard stun on a 30 second cooldown.

 

Similarly, the easiest fix for Immortal Juggs would have been to cut 1/3rd to 1/2 of their damage output. Increase the threat generation on their attacks so they can still function in PvE. Even with Grit Teeth their survivability wasn't really a problem. Their survivability, control, AND high burst potential is the problem. With the Grit teeth changes Juggs with no skill are still going to play Immortal because they're sick of dying. They just won't guard anyone anymore.

 

Bioware could lower the damage of tanks even further, but reward people for playing them by introducing new tank related mechanics. Something off the top of my head: When a tank attacks an enemy it has a similar effect to "taunting" an enemy. Reduces the damage that person does to anyone else but the tank up to 'x' percentage. Or, puts a small shield on their allies for each attack the tank lands on an enemy up to some arbitrary stacking number.

 

Reward players for playing a tank by allowing them to influence / control the battlefield through cc and damage mitigation. Tie mitigation increases to their attacks to keep them engaged in the game. The better you play "multitask" the more influential a tank you are. They don't need to hit like Rage Juggs in the process.

 

As for Mandalorian Fervor that's a pretty good idea for an ability that fits with the class thematically. I would even go so far as to say that's what I would expect from a level 80 ability. However, it's a skill that would work in the live version of the game and not the PTS version of the game. For the PTS version of SWTOR you'd have to ditch the health buff, and the damage boost % would end up being so low you most likely wouldn't notice it before you died anyway. Ranged DPS is already difficult to deal with and over represented in PvP. Increasing ranged burst makes melee a chore. Increasing it even further makes melee unplayable.

 

Juggs and Marauders got destroyed in 7.0 without a meaningful damage boost in sight. The last thing Mercs need is an increase in damage while already maintaining a solid survivability and mobility advantage.

 

Remember, the devs aren't heavy handed when they make adjustments to non force using classes. They'd end up giving mercs access to Mandalorian Fervor and make them lose some passive utility that no one ever used anyway in exchange.

 

If melee had more damage mitigation tools or higher baseline DR i'd say the skill would be a great addition, but i'm pretty sure that's the opposite of what Bioware wants 7.0 to do to the game.

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