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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


Sundown's Avatar


Sundown
01.21.2021 , 12:32 AM | #10081
Quote: Originally Posted by SoontirMorillo View Post
A tank puts guard on healer, if he does not know better.
A tank puts guard on healer, if the healer is whining, and he just wants him to shut up. And he is confident enough, he don't need it to hold aggro against dps.
Guard actually does reduce incoming damage on guarded player, it's only 5% though, and 25% less threat, which (as you pointed out) does not change anything if no damage is going out to the adds and only heal threat is generated.
Still there are fights where the tiny reduction still comes in handy, when there is lots of unavoidable damage coming in for example, then healer can benefit and heal others more, e.g. Umbara last boss I'd say. Still a matter of taste maybe?

Anyway, I guess I know the streamer you mentioned before, at least there is one who went into Nathema undergeared and not knowing the FP and lacking knowledge of the damage mitigation parts of the rotation of his PT. Seeing how self-conscious I am (I don't dare going there knowing the fights at least as DPS/Heal and with a well equipped tank I know the spec pretty well) I thought it amazing how different people are. I wish I had a similar confidence, because in the end they got things done, which is what counts.

Last week I had a "I am tank, I am boss" type: Rishi, tank asks for bonus, one guy in the group doesn't want to try, tank quits. I mean, come on.

And just yesterday Nathema popped, tank insta quits. One Stealther still starts stealthing through, the other DPS quits (maybe he didn't know the tactics even though I whispered what was going on) without a word. Before the first boss we luckily got replacements, tank says he was a returning player and didn't know the fights except for Story, so we took a little time trying to explain the fights in chat. One shoted everything with minor hickups, except for last boss where we had a wipe at 12%, killed it in 2nd try. Tank asked for areas of improvement after every fight, that as pretty awesome.

SoontirMorillo's Avatar


SoontirMorillo
01.21.2021 , 03:03 AM | #10082
If a tank just...
Quote: Originally Posted by eabevella View Post
stood there and watched me used up all my DCDs and (get) killed by the whole group of trash
... i have a pretty good idea, what went wrong. And guard, with a 5% damage reduction or 50% damage reduction, is simply not part of the problem.

eabevella's Avatar


eabevella
01.21.2021 , 03:59 AM | #10083
Quote: Originally Posted by SoontirMorillo View Post
Not again this "guard on healer" topic. Some people simply don't understand. As i said in my last post...

Healers only gets attacked, if nobody is attacking the mobs. Every basic attack from tank or dps will gain aggro. Guard will not help you/prevent it, if nobody is building aggro an adds.
You just answered why a healer ask for guard because 99% of the time no one is following kill order, everyone is killing their own thing, and the heal gains the most aggro after 5 sec just by throwing basic heal probes.

Maybe I should just try the No Heal No Aggro trick. Won't gain aggro more than ****** tank and dps if I do nothing.

SoontirMorillo's Avatar


SoontirMorillo
01.21.2021 , 05:32 AM | #10084
Quote: Originally Posted by eabevella View Post
You just answered why a healer ask for guard because 99% of the time no one is following kill order, everyone is killing their own thing, and the heal gains the most aggro after 5 sec just by throwing basic heal probes.

Maybe I should just try the No Heal No Aggro trick. Won't gain aggro more than ****** tank and dps if I do nothing.
One. If this happens in master mode, speak up, remind them on kill order. If nothing changes ignore tank and dps. They are bad. You ignore them, because they are bad, and not because tank doesn't gave you guard. Again, guard will not help in this situation. 25% aggro reduction does not help, when they all ignore basic gameplay. But you should never put a tank on ignore, because he does not want to give you guard right at the start. You should never tell a new tank, guard is for healers.

Two. If this happens in veteran mode, with an all-dps group, okay... it happens alot, because people learn in veteran mode. And you have to learn as a healer as well ... protect yourself. Either you heal through it, if you're good enough. Honestly, this situations are the most fun part as a healer, because you finally have to heal something on veteran mode. Or, as you said, you don't start healing, if you can't handle the aggro. Wait till somebody is under 50% and than you start healing. Remember, your main focus as a healer is to stay alive. After that you can rescue others. Don't heal, if you know, you will die. They have DCDs. They can use them.

An example... last boss Hammer-Station. Master or veteran, does not matter. Tank and two melee dps burning the boss. Once in a while two adds appear. Let's assume everbody is ignoring them, and you as a healer have to deal with them. How do you deal with them? How do you protect yourself? Simple. Don't stand at 25m range. Go grap the adds and walk over to tank and dps. They do one aoe attack, and you will lose aggro. Don't stand there and wait, that one dps comes over to rescue you. Play more proactive and help your group. Same with the Korriban boss, the droid in front of the gate. You gain aggro as a healer on the spawning melee adds. Grap them, go to boss, aoe from tank or dps, done. Or Mandalorian Raiders... this cute little doggos, jumping at you. Don't panic, run to group members, they will at one time have to cast an abilitiy with aoe damage. If we are talking about range adds, go position yourself around a crate/corner or something. Nathema, last boss. The beams from the alkoven-phase. Run and hide behind a pillar. Don't stand in the open and let them wreck you. Learn to protect yourself.

I have seen this so often, so much. Healers thinking it is enough, if they heal. You have so much more to do as a healer, than pressing small heal, big heal,.. etc. Positioning. Your most valuable defensive cooldown. Just don't stand there and let adds wreck you. Think.

It is unfortunate, but you will get these kind of groups. Sometimes there is nothing you can do. But in all these cases, a 25% aggro reduce with guard will not help you, if no tank or dps is attacking the target, that is attacking you.

This is simply a thing you have to learn as a healer. Which trash groups are giving me trouble, and why? What can i do, to change that? And if your answer is, "random tank at the start of the flashpoint, give me guard or i quit". Nope. You can improve in other ways.

I have something like 95% Flashpoints achievements. 85% i did in random groups. 80% as a healer. I've seen it all. And honestly, you should be totally capable to keep yourself up against any trash group in veteran or master, till incompetent teammates kill them. If they pull like three or four groups,.. yeah... you should be good.

eabevella's Avatar


eabevella
01.21.2021 , 10:05 AM | #10085
Quote: Originally Posted by SoontirMorillo View Post
One. If this happens in master mode, speak up, remind them on kill order. If nothing changes ignore tank and dps. They are bad. You ignore them, because they are bad, and not because tank doesn't gave you guard. Again, guard will not help in this situation. 25% aggro reduction does not help, when they all ignore basic gameplay. But you should never put a tank on ignore, because he does not want to give you guard right at the start. You should never tell a new tank, guard is for healers.

Two. If this happens in veteran mode, with an all-dps group, okay... it happens alot, because people learn in veteran mode. And you have to learn as a healer as well ... protect yourself. Either you heal through it, if you're good enough. Honestly, this situations are the most fun part as a healer, because you finally have to heal something on veteran mode. Or, as you said, you don't start healing, if you can't handle the aggro. Wait till somebody is under 50% and than you start healing. Remember, your main focus as a healer is to stay alive. After that you can rescue others. Don't heal, if you know, you will die. They have DCDs. They can use them.

An example... last boss Hammer-Station. Master or veteran, does not matter. Tank and two melee dps burning the boss. Once in a while two adds appear. Let's assume everbody is ignoring them, and you as a healer have to deal with them. How do you deal with them? How do you protect yourself? Simple. Don't stand at 25m range. Go grap the adds and walk over to tank and dps. They do one aoe attack, and you will lose aggro. Don't stand there and wait, that one dps comes over to rescue you. Play more proactive and help your group. Same with the Korriban boss, the droid in front of the gate. You gain aggro as a healer on the spawning melee adds. Grap them, go to boss, aoe from tank or dps, done. Or Mandalorian Raiders... this cute little doggos, jumping at you. Don't panic, run to group members, they will at one time have to cast an abilitiy with aoe damage. If we are talking about range adds, go position yourself around a crate/corner or something. Nathema, last boss. The beams from the alkoven-phase. Run and hide behind a pillar. Don't stand in the open and let them wreck you. Learn to protect yourself.

I have seen this so often, so much. Healers thinking it is enough, if they heal. You have so much more to do as a healer, than pressing small heal, big heal,.. etc. Positioning. Your most valuable defensive cooldown. Just don't stand there and let adds wreck you. Think.

It is unfortunate, but you will get these kind of groups. Sometimes there is nothing you can do. But in all these cases, a 25% aggro reduce with guard will not help you, if no tank or dps is attacking the target, that is attacking you.

This is simply a thing you have to learn as a healer. Which trash groups are giving me trouble, and why? What can i do, to change that? And if your answer is, "random tank at the start of the flashpoint, give me guard or i quit". Nope. You can improve in other ways.

I have something like 95% Flashpoints achievements. 85% i did in random groups. 80% as a healer. I've seen it all. And honestly, you should be totally capable to keep yourself up against any trash group in veteran or master, till incompetent teammates kill them. If they pull like three or four groups,.. yeah... you should be good.
Usually MM is good, and I've only got one terrible tank so far. Bosses are fine because the numbers are small and I can hit kolto in VM anyway if things go south. It's big group of trash that's the problem. Maybe it's because I ranted about all my worst experiences in a short time so it looked bad but I can keep myself alive if the team is half decent, but some teams are just *that* bad, and nothing I do can save me.

I only ask guard whenever I ended up being the hot target of literally the whole group of trash. Maybe 25% threat and 5% damage off is very little, but it's better than literally nothing. I'll take that, thanks. It's not like the tank is using it on the dps either... most of the time they don't even know it exist so why not take it for myself...

I guess if I wanted to be fair, I should complain about those heals who don't heal at all...

MagicTerror's Avatar


MagicTerror
01.21.2021 , 03:07 PM | #10086
Quote: Originally Posted by eabevella View Post
You just answered why a healer ask for guard because 99% of the time no one is following kill order, everyone is killing their own thing, and the heal gains the most aggro after 5 sec just by throwing basic heal probes.
This conflict purely stems from dps not knowing or caring about kill order when there's more than one enemy.

Consider the following mob: 1 Elite ranked NPC, 2 or 3 Strong ranked ones, and a few normal ones interspersed; each one of them is grouped close enough to be hit with a general AOE or by stepping one pace closer to hit them, except for 1 or 2 Normal ranged enemies.

The Tank's main job is to fight the ones that are like him, which have the most endurance (the Elite and Strong ones), while the dps focus on the weaker ones that would go down to their superior power quickly; they have weapons that can hurt just as much, but they have so little health compared to what a dps can dish out that it doesn't matter.

A good dps generally works from the outside of the fray to the middle, but so many see what the tank is heading for and think "Oh, that's what I should be hitting too!" when it's not. Their job is to target those ranged snipers that will hit the healer without some other interference. Mobs are almost never bunched up as nicely as I described, and it's ridiculous to expect the tank to run all over the place making sure he has aggro on all of them before they overwhelm the healer. Kill the ones that can be killed quickly and join in the tank's battle royale with the leader Only. When. It's. Needed.

It also doesn't help matters when a veteran teaches noobs harmful stuff in the name of a quicker record on clearing like "ignore adds burn boss" simply because damage is so badly tuned for certain fights and the boss will die before the adds become a problem for survival.

SoontirMorillo's Avatar


SoontirMorillo
01.21.2021 , 03:41 PM | #10087
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
It also doesn't help matters when a veteran teaches noobs harmful stuff in the name of a quicker record on clearing like "ignore adds burn boss" simply because damage is so badly tuned for certain fights and the boss will die before the adds become a problem for survival.
I really like the first fight of the Korriban Flashpoint/Master-Mode.

If you tell your group "focus boss, ignore adds", it might be, that this is not the intended strategy. But you will learn pretty fast, and early on in the flashpoint, if the dps are capable of killing the droid in front of the gate later on, which has a relativly short enrage timer. And simultaneously you will learn, if you have a decent enough healer in your group.

demotivator's Avatar


demotivator
01.22.2021 , 05:40 AM | #10088
Quote: Originally Posted by Khaleijo View Post
The bosses went not perfectly but alright, nobody blamed the healer for dying from their own faults and the healer only died once at first boss, also due to himself ignoring the mechanic and not using any ability to get free from the root.
And this is what you are supposed to do. The boss gains stacks when people get free from the grapple either knowingly or because they are using a skill that does that as a side effect. DO NOT break free from the root. DO interrupt Full Auto.


Quote: Originally Posted by Khaleijo View Post
Then comes Troya Ajak as far as we understood at that point the player targeted by that canalised shot moves to hide behind a corner or edge to avoid the damage and not get one shot (the run was still before the patch that lowered the damage significantly). Unfortunately it didn't work either due to players being to slow or the shot still killing them despite being behind cover, the boss died in the first attempt though and it was us who died and nobody complained towards the healer.
While LOSing the telegraph may work, most of times she just won't care no matter how well hidden you are. So this is not the most efficient way of dealing with this mechanic. If EVERYONE stands on the telegraph the damage will be shared between everyone, that is a trivial damage to heal up (any decent healer should top you off with an AOE heal, that's another advice: everyone in melee range of the boss for AOE heals) compared to one person losing 80% of their HP or possibly being one shot, especially as it is followed by the small AOEs at your feet.
Randomizing your forums.

LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
01.22.2021 , 09:28 AM | #10089
Quote: Originally Posted by demotivator View Post
If EVERYONE stands on the telegraph the damage will be shared between everyone,.
Are you sure the damage is shared? I've mostly just healed through it, or popped a dcd when targeted by it.

It seems like an odd mechanic. Most times with a shot like that everyone standing in it will just take a big hit, not mitigate the individual damage taken. It's a bit counter-intuitive to have everyone stack for a big hit.
Stealthy heals, stealthy dps, stealthy life.

Opiklo's Avatar


Opiklo
01.22.2021 , 10:44 AM | #10090
Quote: Originally Posted by SoontirMorillo View Post

It happens to be, that he never did Czerka Core Meltdown. Neither Veteran- nor Master-Mode. This time he queues alone, 100% random groupfinder. They reach the Sandstorm-Generator-Boss. He says to his Twitch-Chat, „Never been here. Is this a boss? What does he do?“, and pulls. He does not inform his group or wait for explanation from his Twitch-Chat.

He stands in the middle of the arena and tanks the boss. The healer does an extraordinary job, but eventually the group gets low and it is a wipe. Right before everyone dies, our tank says „Healer? Why are you not healing?“. He simply has not the situational awareness to grasp, what is going on.
if the healer would have done a extraordinary job no one would have died.
you know that extraordinary means "außergewöhnlich"?
i have seen scoundrels pull 19.5k ehps at that boss. that is extraordinary.
http://parsely.io/parser/view/357648
some healers tell the tank not to move because it is fun to heal

but with an average healer this wont work.


but i am all with you in the guard on heal debate.
as long as 1>0 guard wont help. because 1*0.75 is still bigger than 0.
its a tank issue. if a tank cant grab aggro of all of the mobs in a group he is failing his job. and if you pull aggro as heal and you are attacked by melee mobs. dont run away - run to the group. all tanks do splash dmg .and if they hit those mobs 1 time he will take away that aggro from the heal.

the only heal i guard all the time is my girlfriend <3 but thats just for symbolism and has nothing to do with game mechanics xD
usually i dont guard any random player i dont know in the beginning of a fp.
if someone (usually only vanguards/pts) should pull aggro he will get the child safety leash.
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