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Why can't ranged classes be good anymore?


InaNurn

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It's really starting to feel like the Devs only care about Melee and Diet-Melee classes, excluding Sorc/Sage which seems to be the only ranged class with any viability...

 

Sniper/Gunslinger has no survivability at all, and Merc/Comm desperately needs a buff to their DPS potential...

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yes most ranged are worse then mele atm and have always been worse altho you are incorrect in the fact that sorc is actualy the best of the ranged as it is sniper bye far (only viru tho) sorc can't even come close on either single target or aoe and is now less mobile and less tanky aswell + ling now brings less utilite then sniper only maddess can some what compete merc tho now that class has been shafted quite hard on the dps front, can't say i'm mad about it especialy for arsenal as its to easy to deal good damage imo but for io they do deserve to be way higer then where they are now
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Because lightsabers arent 30M long and they dominate the game, lol

 

The real reason is Biodaddy didn't think about balance at all with 7.0. Mercs/snipers just got the short end of the ability pruning.

 

I am convinced all the changes they made were targeted to reduce the desync in the game. Without any thought to class balance. Just look at how much higher OP heals are compared to Mercs and Sorcs.

 

Why did they delete Fanged God from carnage it was causing desync due to high ability spam. Same with a lot of the movement abilities.

 

Biodaddys version of balance is if the spec can clear SM content that is all the matters. All specs in the game can do that so mission accomplished.

 

I bet if we asked them the top 2 dps specs in the game right now they would say something like Arsenal Merc and Pyro PT. I swear it would be some garbage like that.

 

Frankly they don't know or be bothered to know, its just a 9-5 job for a paycheck has been for awhile now. I just have to come accept it. So don't get upset paying the sub to here and there while the game is still running.

 

We all know the problems and what the solutions should be. It just takes effort that is not happening.

 

DPS Specs should parse in this order Lets assume 30k Maximum.

1 Annihilation/Watchman 30K (Pure dps dot spec)

2 Vigilance/Vengeance 29.7k (They have more utility then sents/maras)

3 Hatred/Serenity 29.5k (They have to pay for stealth mechanics)

4 PyroTech/Plasmatech 29.0k (Have to pay for the 10 meter range)

5 Innovative Ordnance/Assault 28.6K (Best ranged dps output due to dots and rotational issues, Penalty for ranged)

6 Lethality/Ruffian 28.4k (Dot spec has to pay for utility and stealth)

7 Fury/Concentration 28.0K ( Penalty for utility and how easy the spec is)

8 Rage/Focus 27.8K (Same as above but a bit more utility)

9 Madness Sorc 27.5k (Penalty for range and lots of utility)

10 Engineering/Dirty Fighting 27.3k (Penalty for ranged and having good burst at times)

11 Virulence/Dirty Fighting 27.0k (Penalty for very easy to perform cleave and range)

12 Carnage/Combat 26.6k (This is assuming they are changed to have their burst back more then fury first burst spec)

13 AP PT/Tactics 26k ( Big penalty for how easy this spec is and not having any setup to burst.)

14 Deception/Infiltration 25.8k (Stealth and burst penalty)

15 Concealment/Scrapper 25.4k (Stealth burst and utility penalty)

16 Marksmanship/Sharpshooter 25k (Penalty for Burst and ranged)

17 Lighting/Telekinetics 24.8k (Penalty for ranged ease of use and utility)

18 Aresnal/Gunnery 24.5K (Penalty for ranged ease of use and dcds/utility and burst)

Edited by TmoneyTime
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The real reason is Biodaddy didn't think about balance at all with 7.0. Mercs/snipers just got the short end of the ability pruning. )

 

I am one of the most critical or I have been, but then I saw this,

 

It's BRUTAL to know what the devs go through, so yeah I play a merc as my main and hopefully it will get better, but honestly, I think we need to give them a bit of slack atm, working for E.A. is a nightmare tbh. So we should give the devs a bit of kudos for sticking with the game.

Edited by Iceslasher
screwed up quote
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DPS Specs should parse in this order Lets assume 30k Maximum.

1 Annihilation/Watchman 30K (Pure dps dot spec)

2 Vigilance/Vengeance 29.7k (They have more utility then sents/maras)

3 Hatred/Serenity 29.5k (They have to pay for stealth mechanics)

4 PyroTech/Plasmatech 29.0k (Have to pay for the 10 meter range)

5 Innovative Ordnance/Assault 28.6K (Best ranged dps output due to dots and rotational issues, Penalty for ranged)

6 Lethality/Ruffian 28.4k (Dot spec has to pay for utility and stealth)

7 Fury/Concentration 28.0K ( Penalty for utility and how easy the spec is)

8 Rage/Focus 27.8K (Same as above but a bit more utility)

9 Madness Sorc 27.5k (Penalty for range and lots of utility)

10 Engineering/Dirty Fighting 27.3k (Penalty for ranged and having good burst at times)

11 Virulence/Dirty Fighting 27.0k (Penalty for very easy to perform cleave and range)

12 Carnage/Combat 26.6k (This is assuming they are changed to have their burst back more then fury first burst spec)

13 AP PT/Tactics 26k ( Big penalty for how easy this spec is and not having any setup to burst.)

14 Deception/Infiltration 25.8k (Stealth and burst penalty)

15 Concealment/Scrapper 25.4k (Stealth burst and utility penalty)

16 Marksmanship/Sharpshooter 25k (Penalty for Burst and ranged)

17 Lighting/Telekinetics 24.8k (Penalty for ranged ease of use and utility)

18 Aresnal/Gunnery 24.5K (Penalty for ranged ease of use and dcds/utility and burst)

 

I don't really agree with such a strict hierarchy, mostly because different classes get different benefits in different content. For instance you list Juggernauts as having more utility than Marauders. I don't agree at all, Marauders bring both a great raidbuff, as well as Predation which is amazing on a bunch of fights. Meanwhile Juggs bring a taunt, and an armour debuff that a bunch of other classes bring as well (which is one of the two dps increasing debuffs that all classes have). Also Hatred is lower than those two because of stealth, but they bring next to no raid utility, and stealth in operations is barely worth anything.

 

It makes more sense to group specs into categories, balance the dps between categories and inside categories balance with group utility, survivability, CC, AoE damage, etc., with dps being more less equal within a category. Then you get a simple:

 

  1. Melee sustained
     
  2. Melee burst and Ranged sustained
     
  3. Ranged burst

 

Carnage and Engineering are kind of awkward specs in this whole system:

Carnage should either be somewhere between melee sustained and melee burst, or should get its burst buffed more in line with burst specs.

Engineering should probably fine with ranged sustained. It gets substantial natural cleave, but its single target dps heavily relying on Plasma Probe naturally makes it much weaker on fights where bosses move a lot.

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Carnage and Engineering are kind of awkward specs in this whole system:

Carnage should either be somewhere between melee sustained and melee burst, or should get its burst buffed more in line with burst specs.

Engineering should probably fine with ranged sustained. It gets substantial natural cleave, but its single target dps heavily relying on Plasma Probe naturally makes it much weaker on fights where bosses move a lot.

 

this does ignore the skill required for some classes like wy would some one ever play a ling sorc over lets say arsenal if they both do similar numbers while one is x100 times harder to play correctly or something like carnage vs concentration where one is extremely easy the other is one of the harder specs to play + you have the entire defensive tool kit aswell its one of the reasons you see so many mara's atm since they have some of the best mitigation ontop of utilitie meanwhile something like operative takes so mutch damage for less output,

 

You can balance folowing burst>sustained mele>ranged its what got us in this mess in the first place where specs like engi and carnage who are both on the high end of skill requirement are getting beat bye stuff like concentration and viru respectivly wich should just not be the case,

 

A big problem is that the pure dps classes like sniper and mara need there specs to be balanced individualy to suite a niche the problem is that to have any semblance of diversity only two of the three specs are often viable ( anhi + carnage combo for example) where you play the sustained spec everywhere you can and only take the burst when its needed imo you have to give them both similar damage

but give the dot specs more in form utility and defensive tools a good example is anhi where it gets the bonus healing what they should prolly do is give anhi a bit more in terms of defensive effectiveness but compensate carnage and then differentiate the pure burst vs the hybrid that has burst and sustained in a similar way , bye my logic all 3 do the same damage but anhi is the most tanky and has the most utilty fury comes second in utlity and defensive tools and carnage the least of the three in both but then has its numbers re done so it actualy has far better burst then concentration

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I don't really agree with such a strict hierarchy...

 

It makes more sense to group specs into categories, balance the dps between categories and inside categories balance with group utility, survivability, CC, AoE damage, etc., with dps being more less equal within a category.

 

  1. Melee sustained
     
  2. Melee burst and Ranged sustained
     
  3. Ranged burst

 

I mean he did do exactly that though. Dot specs are sustained dps specs, and the first 6 on his list. Things like lightning sorc which is a ranged burst spec, or marksman (same thing) are at the bottom as you had suggested. Honestly he kind of followed what you wanted already, maybe with a few caveats. What you don't seem to like is him assigning numbers to the specs, and putting them in order. Yet his method is just more realistic, because we know that no amount of balancing on Bioware's part (even if they were a competent developer) would give us the exact same numbers across the board for all classes in that category. One class is going to be produce slightly more dps than another, that's just a fact of life. No MMO has ever balanced even 2 classes to the same exact damage numbers. He just broke it down further with what he thinks those classes should be, based on his perceived notion of what they bring to the table.

 

That said I don't actually agree with him. I completely see where he is coming from, and in theory he makes good points. However there's a lot of problems with his post. For starters a nearly 20% difference between the top and bottom dps difference is a big no, no for me. That's only slightly better than what we have now, and what we have now is pure garbage in terms of balance. Also, like you also don't understand some of his reasoning where he states that Watchman is a pure dps spec, and vengeance has more utility. Like what? Sentinels / Marauders bring some nice utility to the group, and I don't understand how it's "just a dps spec". I also don't agree that more complicated specs should be given a large dps bonus vs less complicated specs. I play the more complicated specs because they keep me more engaged, not because I can do 3k more dps than my other spec. I like to be able to swap specs based on my mood, or sometimes the encounter if needed, rather than adhere to this is clearly the best spec, therefore I must play that. That's not how the game works, or the human psyche.

 

In my eyes even if the less complicated specs produced nearly the same damage I would still play the more difficult specs to keep me engaged. Perhaps I'm the minority. However sometimes you have those days where you do want a brain dead spec, and that's fine, there shouldn't be a penalty for wanting to take a break from things, this is a game after all. Sometimes a burst spec that can swap to adds works better than a dot spec. Yet because the burst spec is usually easier to play people want a dps tax on it. That is not a reason for massive dps tax on it. I agree that sustained should do more damage than burst dps, partly because dots take time to set up, and can end before the time runs out therefor producing less damage than they should. But that's where difference should be not the, "this spec is harder to play" argument.

 

I also would have probably agreed more with his list before the introduction of combat styles, but given the fact that you are now able to have a second class. I no longer see things like sentinels / marauders & gunslingers / snipers as a disadvantage for just having only dps specs. Where as before I would have said, sure they probably should do more damage since they can't do anything else. With your second combat style you will gain either a healing class or a tanking class, unless you mirror your class in which case well don't complain about it to me. At this point I think the right direction would be to just bring all the classes / specs to a relatively close performance level of say (8% dps difference between the top & bottom) and let people play what they want, rather than trying to be an elitist about it.

Edited by Setta
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The biggest problem is not all classes let alone all specs can clear the hardest content. This ranking specs is kind of dumb based on how easy the rotation is etc. For instance AP is easy but defensively is trash, all specs have their pros and cons but for me the most important is they can all clear all content without needing 3 fury maras to carry them, yes sustained melee should be the highest, but beyond that it should be fairly close. You just cant have 30% difference between the top spec (fury) and the bottom spec (arsenal).
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This list is for pvp. Honestly PVE all that matters is you have enough DPS to beat the DPS check. If I did the math right all classes can clear NIM content based on DPS targets.

 

That's the thing they can't clear all the dps checks in NIM.

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This list is for pvp. Honestly PVE all that matters is you have enough DPS to beat the DPS check. If I did the math right all classes can clear NIM content based on DPS targets.

 

The math eh.

 

Are you copy pasting dummy parse numbers to idk, Brontes and thinking, yes, 4 arsenal mercs can do that easy :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

We all know the problems and what the solutions should be. It just takes effort that is not happening.

 

DPS Specs should parse in this order Lets assume 30k Maximum.

 

3 Hatred/Serenity 29.5k (They have to pay for stealth mechanics)

 

6 Lethality/Ruffian 28.4k (Dot spec has to pay for utility and stealth)

 

Uhm - besides cleanse, what utility do you imagine any scoundrels have that should put them at a lower dps than serenity shadows? Shadows who have 4 second stun built-in, have knockback, in-combat CC if they wish, can taunt/off-tank, cheese boss mechanics...

 

Your list is arbitrary.

Edited by BlueRuggo
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Uhm - besides cleanse, what utility do you imagine any scoundrels have that should put them at a lower dps than serenity shadows? Shadows who have 4 second stun built-in, have knockback, in-combat CC if they wish, can taunt/off-tank, cheese boss mechanics...

 

Your list is arbitrary.

 

List is based on PVP not PVE...... PVE mechanics are trivial to game balance as they are static encounters.

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