Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

In favor of ability pruning


Kass's Avatar


Kass
08.03.2021 , 06:25 PM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Soljin View Post

...

If everyone loses DCD(s) equally it just increases TTK and forces people to engage more carefully outside of the DCD windows not having the ability to constantly rotate DCD(s).

Removal of DCD(s) could make guard more valuable in PvP and PvE as well I suppose... just a thought.

...
Just a clarification - you mean increase as in lower the TTK? Because right now it's very high... pretty sure that's what you're saying, but just wanted to ask to be sure - in my mind it reads the other way = an increase in TTK would mean longer.

You definitely make some valid points about what could happen as a result.

The concern I would still have is that the meta will not change, or not change enough. And we will instead see steam rolling of DPS only Unranked Warzones because even less people are willing to risk getting tunneled as a healer, and true tanks like Assassin Darkness are few and far between.

The Unranked (and as a consequence Unorganized) PVPers are not going suddenly out of the goodness of their hearts begin to que with characters that would facilitate game play with reduced/pruned DCD's. They are going to adapt and work around it, instead of treading a paved path laid out by the Developers -- there are a LOT of Juggernauts in PVP, and the players have invested a lot of time and effort into their characters - so if the ratio to DwT/DPS so lopsidedly outweighs the number of Tanks & Healers what happens then?

The pattern of these discussions that has often been pointed out and I am also seeing/experiencing while participating in this important discussion is the duality of what works in PVE and the complete lack of similarity to what works for PVP.

But for game development ... its like two completely different universes in the same game and PvE is PvE and PvP is PvP and never the two shall meet.
Kass'yan
KTD - Republic Commando - "We're coming... and we're bringing Guns..."
"All Mods have been alerted to your presence, sir!" *
S0-B1 aw350m3n355 @ b31ng a Tr011 ha5 b33n c0mpr0m15ed. Mu5t f1nd 3as13r markz

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
08.03.2021 , 06:47 PM | #172
Quote: Originally Posted by Kass View Post
Just a clarification - you mean increase as in lower the TTK? Because right now it's very high... pretty sure that's what you're saying, but just wanted to ask to be sure - in my mind it reads the other way = an increase in TTK would mean longer.

You definitely make some valid points about what could happen as a result.

The concern I would still have is that the meta will not change, or not change enough. And we will instead see steam rolling of DPS only Unranked Warzones because even less people are willing to risk getting tunneled as a healer, and true tanks like Assassin Darkness are few and far between.

The Unranked (and as a consequence Unorganized) PVPers are not going suddenly out of the goodness of their hearts begin to que with characters that would facilitate game play with reduced/pruned DCD's. They are going to adapt and work around it, instead of treading a paved path laid out by the Developers -- there are a LOT of Juggernauts in PVP, and the players have invested a lot of time and effort into their characters - so if the ratio to DwT/DPS so lopsidedly outweighs the number of Tanks & Healers what happens then?

The pattern of these discussions that has often been pointed out and I am also seeing/experiencing while participating in this important discussion is the duality of what works in PVE and the complete lack of similarity to what works for PVP.

But for game development ... its like two completely different universes in the same game and PvE is PvE and PvP is PvP and never the two shall meet.
To clarify I meant people will die faster especially if they clone zerg rather than engage thoughtfully while their limited DCD(s) are on CD.

I pretty much agree the population will not suddenly start trying to play team builds...That said assuming you can switch loadouts prior to the WZ gate opening people will be able to easily swap to a build more beneficial to their team if they see fit...

Also of note depending on how the AC swapping thing plays out you may be able to play your main character juggernaut and without missing a beat switch to a healer AC for the next WZ without changing characters. That said I don't really understand how that system going to function BW seemed pretty vague on that part... I think that type of flexibility will lead to more people switching to tanks and healers for WZs...Possibly.
I want my SWG...
Server: Satele Shan
Now, we must all fear evil. But there is a specific kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Savej's Avatar


Savej
08.03.2021 , 06:56 PM | #173
Yes, pruning will make tanks and stealth and healers more important than they already are. I don't see that being a good thing.

Stealth already has huge advantages in duels and when guarding or attacking nodes. If a non-stealth dps (or tank) node guard doesn't know exactly what he's doing or his cooldowns are on CD he can easily be made a complete fool of by an average stealth user.

Tank juggs can often kill two dps juggs if they fight to the death; on test this is still very true.

Why do we still have metas where one player that picked the right class/spec is categorically much better than another? Why do we want to increase those disparities?

Kass's Avatar


Kass
08.03.2021 , 07:26 PM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by Soljin View Post
To clarify I meant people will die faster especially if they clone zerg rather than engage thoughtfully while their limited DCD(s) are on CD.

I pretty much agree the population will not suddenly start trying to play team builds...That said assuming you can switch loadouts prior to the WZ gate opening people will be able to easily swap to a build more beneficial to their team if they see fit...

Also of note depending on how the AC swapping thing plays out you may be able to play your main character juggernaut and without missing a beat switch to a healer AC for the next WZ without changing characters. That said I don't really understand how that system going to function BW seemed pretty vague on that part... I think that type of flexibility will lead to more people switching to tanks and healers for WZs...Possibly.
Thanks for the clarification - yeah you meant exactly what I assumed you did.

Boy I hope you are right about the Loadout switching being available before the Warzone gate shields drop, because I have the suspicion that your Loadout will only be able to be changed outside a Warzone and Outside of Combat in the Open World.

When things like Adrenals are not even allowed to be utilized in a Warzone, I have a feeling that the mechanics of Loadout swapping will be excluded during a Warzone match -

I could imagine the cries and howls if you have stealth classes popping in and out of stealth to a tank or higher dps Loadouts, or Juggernauts finding concealed cover to break line of sight and agro to switch from Rage to Immortal (or vice versa).

Now maybe they make it available for only the 2 minutes prior to the start of a match, but I'm not holding out hope that we will see that.

With the Dev's being the Demi-Gods of this Universe, I'm just a poor Surgeon trying to cure the 4%ers of SWTOR, so while I'm glad the Devs have chosen to listen to a few of my suggestions, I think Loadouts inside the 2 minute wait of a Warzone is never gonna see the light of day...

Because if they do it for Unranked, they'll have to be fair and allow it for Ranked as well - and Ranked players are ferocious about anything they perceive as giving anyone an advantage.

I'm also of the mind set that part of the fun of PVP is the pre-planning and strategizing on what build/gear set to use and face stomp all over player #7800707 who thought they new how to play but still have a lot to learn.

So I guess I would say while I think its a novel idea to have Loadouts in the waiting period, I'm not sure I'm for it... but I can't say at the moment if I would be against it either.
Kass'yan
KTD - Republic Commando - "We're coming... and we're bringing Guns..."
"All Mods have been alerted to your presence, sir!" *
S0-B1 aw350m3n355 @ b31ng a Tr011 ha5 b33n c0mpr0m15ed. Mu5t f1nd 3as13r markz

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
08.03.2021 , 07:39 PM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by Kass View Post
Thanks for the clarification - yeah you meant exactly what I assumed you did.

Boy I hope you are right about the Loadout switching being available before the Warzone gate shields drop, because I have the suspicion that your Loadout will only be able to be changed outside a Warzone and Outside of Combat in the Open World.

When things like Adrenals are not even allowed to be utilized in a Warzone, I have a feeling that the mechanics of Loadout swapping will be excluded during a Warzone match -

I could imagine the cries and howls if you have stealth classes popping in and out of stealth to a tank or higher dps Loadouts, or Juggernauts finding concealed cover to break line of sight and agro to switch from Rage to Immortal (or vice versa).

Now maybe they make it available for only the 2 minutes prior to the start of a match, but I'm not holding out hope that we will see that.

With the Dev's being the Demi-Gods of this Universe, I'm just a poor Surgeon trying to cure the 4%ers of SWTOR, so while I'm glad the Devs have chosen to listen to a few of my suggestions, I think Loadouts inside the 2 minute wait of a Warzone is never gonna see the light of day...

Because if they do it for Unranked, they'll have to be fair and allow it for Ranked as well - and Ranked players are ferocious about anything they perceive as giving anyone an advantage.

I'm also of the mind set that part of the fun of PVP is the pre-planning and strategizing on what build/gear set to use and face stomp all over player #7800707 who thought they new how to play but still have a lot to learn.

So I guess I would say while I think its a novel idea to have Loadouts in the waiting period, I'm not sure I'm for it... but I can't say at the moment if I would be against it either.
Funny thing I automatically assumed it would be available in the 2 min prelude to a WZ...It never even occurred to me that it wouldn't based off the concept behind offering loadouts to begin with...Seems funny to cripple the flexibility they provide by forcing people to switch before entering an instance.

Certainly should be locked once the WZ "starts". No out of combat switches...

I always assumed in PvE instances you could change a loadout any time you exit combat... Seems like a good idea to switch strats mid instance and change group configuration... Once again it seems counter intuitive to having "loadouts" without being able to use them except standing in fleet or your stronghold...
I want my SWG...
Server: Satele Shan
Now, we must all fear evil. But there is a specific kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
08.03.2021 , 09:19 PM | #176
Quote: Originally Posted by Soljin View Post
Funny thing I automatically assumed it would be available in the 2 min prelude to a WZ...It never even occurred to me that it wouldn't based off the concept behind offering loadouts to begin with...Seems funny to cripple the flexibility they provide by forcing people to switch before entering an instance.

Certainly should be locked once the WZ "starts". No out of combat switches...

I always assumed in PvE instances you could change a loadout any time you exit combat... Seems like a good idea to switch strats mid instance and change group configuration... Once again it seems counter intuitive to having "loadouts" without being able to use them except standing in fleet or your stronghold...
They already lock swapping gear or utility in some reg maps like Voidstar, but you can do it in ranked. I still can’t get an answer from Bio if that’s a bug or intended.
I highly doubt they’ll allow load outs to be swapped once you pop and accept a match. But we won’t know unless we test it or they announce it before the expansion.
If I had to guess, I would say it’s not even on their radar yet. So it will probably be overlooked and fixed the way they want it after the expansion launches.
Do you want to be a better objective pvper?
Click here for a “How to PvP Guide”

LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
08.04.2021 , 06:48 AM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by Soljin View Post
If everyone loses DCD(s) equally it just increases TTK and forces people to engage more carefully outside of the DCD windows not having the ability to constantly rotate DCD(s).

...

I like the idea that one Mara/Merc/Jugg can set them self apart from other Mara/Merc/Jugg(s) by way of build/gear/ability choices...That is cool. Ability choices done properly could reintroduce "play styles" to SWToR. The danger is making the options to few and thus making combat lame...
From what I've seen and tried so far on PTS, too much is being removed without enough compensation. Is having a lower time to kill at the expense of less interesting combat a good thing?

What would be much more interesting is if instead of forcing us to choose between the abilities we currently have, make it so every ABC level that currently has one ability choice instead has 3 skills. What I mean is instead of choosing between two passives and an ability, always choose between three abilities.

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

Idk, ABC has a lot of potential but it needs a bunch more work and we only have a few months before launch. The devs really need to be putting changes out every week or two maximum with new abilities (even if they're just reusing animations to prototype them) and new passives to see what works and what the players enjoy.
I made a website containing notes about combat styles and ABC choices for reference while testing the PTS
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
08.04.2021 , 07:57 AM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by LordCamTheGreat View Post
From what I've seen and tried so far on PTS, too much is being removed without enough compensation. Is having a lower time to kill at the expense of less interesting combat a good thing?

What would be much more interesting is if instead of forcing us to choose between the abilities we currently have, make it so every ABC level that currently has one ability choice instead has 3 skills. What I mean is instead of choosing between two passives and an ability, always choose between three abilities.

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

Idk, ABC has a lot of potential but it needs a bunch more work and we only have a few months before launch. The devs really need to be putting changes out every week or two maximum with new abilities (even if they're just reusing animations to prototype them) and new passives to see what works and what the players enjoy.
I agree that more ability choices per tier are needed to make this system appealing. Since they are supposedly allowing some form of AC swapping within the confines of Force vs Tech users I would even be interested in abilities from other AC(s) being offered as options (probably never happen) but for example a Juggernaut chooses force lightning instead of Fore choke...

This would allow for more ability choices at each tier and add more RP value plus an increase in a players ability to refine their builds to a specific purpose IE pure DPS or high mobility/burst mix or mid ranged dmg/melee etc...

I havn't seen Bioware invest this type/level of development in SWToR to a level that would suggest they could/would make this level of change...well pretty much ever but one can hope.
I want my SWG...
Server: Satele Shan
Now, we must all fear evil. But there is a specific kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Kass's Avatar


Kass
08.04.2021 , 08:39 AM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by LordCamTheGreat View Post
...

As it stands, being forced to choose to get your old ability back or a passive just isn't an interesting or fun choice. If the devs want to improve player choice, we need more options to begin with. Add a whole bunch of new abilities to every class but make it so you have to choose between them, don't just remove all the current fun utility and defensive abilities and make us choose between stuff we already have.

What kind of choice is choosing between a movement ability and a passive that increases damage for a sentinel going into pvp? That isn't a choice, you must take the movement tool or you won't deal damage in the first place. Why would you ever not take the aoe damage reduction passive in a raid? You might say well you can just switch between loadouts when playing different content - but that's not the point, if that's how loadouts are used, you aren't gaining player agency. You're being 'forced' into cookie cutter builds for each bit of content. Yes you could choose to not take those things, but then you likely won't enjoy playing as much. I know for a fact that running at a target while slowed as melee is incredibly unfun when you have no tools to escape or engage - as is the case for some of the AB specs for sentinel on PTS.

...
Your post spurs a thought...

How shocked are players going to be (those that haven't PTS Tested and/or haven't followed the forums), when they realize that these supposed "ɔhoiɔes" are not going to allow them to build back their current abilities, actives, and passives to anything near resembling what they are used to playing now?

Taking away someone's favorite Space Barbie and telling them you can't play with that anymore, but here's one similar too it... it evokes every scene ever made in movies of a poor little kid who deeply loves their ragged old toy, but some oblivious parent that blindly assumes - hey this is newer and shinier so it must be better.

Bioware EA can ultimately change whatever they want, but there is going to be a shock to the player base, when people realize they can't have their ragged old toy anymore - myself being one of them... even though I know this is coming (in some form).

The inability to play what I've always played is not appealing to me --- I mean I just got my butt-cape handed to me on a platter trying my very first Hard Mode Dxunn Operation - even with all of my allegedly broken and overpowered DCD's, my 306 Item rated and Set-Bonused Full Tank Gear - even as the off tank, I melted like butter in the Tatooine midday Suns...

It was horrifyingly embarrassing.

So it leaves this weird contradiction, where in some instances/places the way the combat system has been developed could be considered Overpowered (Devs did that Players are Innocent Victims) - and in other instances/places your DCD's etc don't mean Podoo, its all about best named in slot armorings, mods, and enhancements PLUS only the mechanics of the operation really matter.

Sharing this humiliation as a Tank I experienced last night is to highlight that there are serious incongruities in the combat content in this game, and that it's, as others are pointing out, A LOT OF STUFF TO BALANCE.

And its pretty apparent that Bioware is understaffed, underfunded, and over worked - I'm really worried that this is going to blow up, and be a giant dent against SWTOR's reputation and community.
Kass'yan
KTD - Republic Commando - "We're coming... and we're bringing Guns..."
"All Mods have been alerted to your presence, sir!" *
S0-B1 aw350m3n355 @ b31ng a Tr011 ha5 b33n c0mpr0m15ed. Mu5t f1nd 3as13r markz

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
08.04.2021 , 09:39 AM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by Kass View Post
Your post spurs a thought...

How shocked are players going to be (those that haven't PTS Tested and/or haven't followed the forums), when they realize that these supposed "ɔhoiɔes" are not going to allow them to build back their current abilities, actives, and passives to anything near resembling what they are used to playing now?

Taking away someone's favorite Space Barbie and telling them you can't play with that anymore, but here's one similar too it... it evokes every scene ever made in movies of a poor little kid who deeply loves their ragged old toy, but some oblivious parent that blindly assumes - hey this is newer and shinier so it must be better.

Bioware EA can ultimately change whatever they want, but there is going to be a shock to the player base, when people realize they can't have their ragged old toy anymore - myself being one of them... even though I know this is coming (in some form).

The inability to play what I've always played is not appealing to me --- I mean I just got my butt-cape handed to me on a platter trying my very first Hard Mode Dxunn Operation - even with all of my allegedly broken and overpowered DCD's, my 306 Item rated and Set-Bonused Full Tank Gear - even as the off tank, I melted like butter in the Tatooine midday Suns...

It was horrifyingly embarrassing.

So it leaves this weird contradiction, where in some instances/places the way the combat system has been developed could be considered Overpowered (Devs did that Players are Innocent Victims) - and in other instances/places your DCD's etc don't mean Podoo, its all about best named in slot armorings, mods, and enhancements PLUS only the mechanics of the operation really matter.

Sharing this humiliation as a Tank I experienced last night is to highlight that there are serious incongruities in the combat content in this game, and that it's, as others are pointing out, A LOT OF STUFF TO BALANCE.

And its pretty apparent that Bioware is understaffed, underfunded, and over worked - I'm really worried that this is going to blow up, and be a giant dent against SWTOR's reputation and community.
I'm pretty sure you just described the plot to Toy Story.

I think limiting ability access volume no matter how much will feel bad to players...Bioware will need to compensate players with a rewarding replacement system "Loadouts" and an overall FUN and rewarding expansion to overcome the frustration people will feel.

If Bioware straight up just prunes abilities, combines abilities and then feeds them back to players in a limited access loadout this will result in major dissent no doubt about it Bioware be warned...

This is not the time to bully a player base leveraging an IP or Nostalgia because we have a very large example of how that can go happening as we type.

This expansion should bring positive changes which improve immersion and fun gameplay, innovation and new content otherwise its not worth doing...
I want my SWG...
Server: Satele Shan
Now, we must all fear evil. But there is a specific kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.