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How does BioWare feel about GSF just being used by PVE players to farm conquest?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
How does BioWare feel about GSF just being used by PVE players to farm conquest?

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
06.12.2021 , 01:59 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Just going to point out that in this thread, as far as skilled long time players go the ratio of ones happy to help, teach or group with a new player vs. ostensibly out to get them is 7:1 in the noob's favor. I say ostensibly for the one, because a lot of the players who as a matter of principle fly at 100% of their skill level no matter how bad they're stomping the other team are at the same time happy to group with noobs from that team, get into Discord with them, and help them out in the next match.

Skilled help is available and free, but you do have to ask for it.
I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.
-Luc Nodaro

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
06.12.2021 , 04:50 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Just going to point out that in this thread, as far as skilled long time players go the ratio of ones happy to help, teach or group with a new player vs. ostensibly out to get them is 7:1 in the noob's favor. I say ostensibly for the one, because a lot of the players who as a matter of principle fly at 100% of their skill level no matter how bad they're stomping the other team are at the same time happy to group with noobs from that team, get into Discord with them, and help them out in the next match.

Skilled help is available and free, but you do have to ask for it.
Social anxiety has entered the chat

Quote: Originally Posted by Ttoilleekul View Post
I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.
I learned that way and got gud, everyone else should too.

I'm going to also point out that hazing tends to run people off because reasonable people tend to see the lack of a point, but the people that get through it tend to be rabidly fanatical.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
Yesterday , 09:23 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ttoilleekul View Post
I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.
I had a similar experience 9 years ago in 8v8 ground pvp. The guys back then were so good that they ran circles around many of us. Just when I got good enough for ranked 8s, BioWare decided to pull it and replace it with Arena 4s (Iíll never forgive them for that).
Since then, Iíve only improved as the rest of the pvp population seemed to devolve and gets worse. There are no longer enough good players to grind my pvp axe on and make my skills any sharper unless I want to play arena (which I dislike) and Iím at a massive lag disadvantage playing from Australia.
I donít hold back in ground pvp, I only got better by grinding against better players who would grind me into dust. I had to learn all my own abilities, to gear, min max, keybind and tactics and strategy against the best players the games ever had (Iím not even close to that lvl).

Ive just started playing GSF because of Galactic Seasons. Iíd always disliked it because I wanted a true Xwing vs Tie Fighter sim clone. Since GS started forcing me to play GSF, I decided I should play properly and learn as much as I can. The learning curve experience is similar (but also harder) to my early pvp days. Iím slowly getting better. My best match was a death match last night where I got 5 kills, 12 assists, zero deaths and 24% aim (strike fighter on intro mission).
Im getting better each match and starting to enjoy GSF

I appreciate some players are like gods and if they werenít, I wouldnít be learning much. The GSF community seems much more welcoming and less toxic than the pvp community. Itís a breath of fresh air after playing pvp for 9 years.
But I would not be playing it if BioWare hadnít made it part of GS and if it also wasnít a good source of Conquest points.
I really hope BioWare donít nerf conquest or add stupid win/medal requirements for GSF or I think it will turn new GSF players off the format. I certainly wouldnít have stuck around if it was a requirement and I will probably stop playing if it becomes one.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
Yesterday , 09:31 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post

I learned that way and got gud, everyone else should too.

I'm going to also point out that hazing tends to run people off because reasonable people tend to see the lack of a point, but the people that get through it tend to be rabidly fanatical.
I think thatís an unfair assessment of Luc. He is here daily helping the community when they ask for help. If he were to pull his punches in matches to accommodate newbies like me, I would never get better.

There is a difference between playing against the best players who demolish you to the tricked out premade that finds the newest players and ganks them constantly so they have zero room to learn. You would be right in that sort of hazing had the opposite affect and drives people away. Itís why the normal ground pvp community has become so toxic. But things seem different in the GSF community. Iíve only come across one instance of the before mentioned toxic behaviour in GSF. Where as I come across it in nearly every ground pvp match.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
Today , 04:06 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I had a similar experience 9 years ago in 8v8 ground pvp. The guys back then were so good that they ran circles around many of us. Just when I got good enough for ranked 8s, BioWare decided to pull it and replace it with Arena 4s (Iíll never forgive them for that).
Since then, Iíve only improved as the rest of the pvp population seemed to devolve and gets worse. There are no longer enough good players to grind my pvp axe on and make my skills any sharper unless I want to play arena (which I dislike) and Iím at a massive lag disadvantage playing from Australia.
I donít hold back in ground pvp, I only got better by grinding against better players who would grind me into dust. I had to learn all my own abilities, to gear, min max, keybind and tactics and strategy against the best players the games ever had (Iím not even close to that lvl).

Ive just started playing GSF because of Galactic Seasons. Iíd always disliked it because I wanted a true Xwing vs Tie Fighter sim clone. Since GS started forcing me to play GSF, I decided I should play properly and learn as much as I can. The learning curve experience is similar (but also harder) to my early pvp days. Iím slowly getting better. My best match was a death match last night where I got 5 kills, 12 assists, zero deaths and 24% aim (strike fighter on intro mission).
Im getting better each match and starting to enjoy GSF

I appreciate some players are like gods and if they werenít, I wouldnít be learning much. The GSF community seems much more welcoming and less toxic than the pvp community. Itís a breath of fresh air after playing pvp for 9 years.
But I would not be playing it if BioWare hadnít made it part of GS and if it also wasnít a good source of Conquest points.
I really hope BioWare donít nerf conquest or add stupid win/medal requirements for GSF or I think it will turn new GSF players off the format. I certainly wouldnít have stuck around if it was a requirement and I will probably stop playing if it becomes one.
You know we are not that different. Ground PVP was my thing. If you have the patience to read it, here is a little trip down memory lane of how I got into GSF. Unexpectedly.

I haven't been in Swtor as long as you. I started 4 years ago I think. Like everyone I did a bit of everything. Played through all the stories, got into operations with my guild, and did some PVP. I was never very good at PVP, and it was just something I did for mats and rewards, and the minimum of it. But I wanted to get better at it, it appealed to me more than Operations and Flashpoints. So I started randomly challenging people to duels on planets. The idea was to get experience against different classes without the mayhem that is a pvp match. One day I challenged a certain person on Tython, and that person kicked my butt. But he was nice, and talked to me. He helped me, and we dueled for the next few hours. From then on we became friends and he actively took me under his wing teaching me how to PVP. We sparred all the time, dueling with different classes and going into matches together. It would turn out, that this person was previously a student of the quite well known and very accomplished Ayan. I'm sure you will know of him given your PVP background? So in time I was also practicing with Ayan too, who was immense and extremely hard to beat. One day I was in a WZ and I would often ask if any healers wanted a tank. Tanking was my thing. Well, Skanking. Healers generally used to appreciate it. One day I was protecting a healer named Lun'i. She was the best healer I ever had the privilege to guard, and we narrowly won the match by holding off 8 of the enemy team on a node, just the two of us. From that day on we were inseparable. We trained together and queued together. She never wanted to queue without me, as its a rough time for healers in PVP. Over time Ayan saw my progress invited me to Ragtag band, along with Lun'i. I progressed as a tank and started doing ranked with them. First season I got bronze, nothing amazing, but a solid first season. Before we got into the second season some issues went down between myself and Lun'i. A misunderstanding about our team and it caused some bad blood. We resolved it and made peace, but things weren't quite the same after that. It dampened my enthusiasm for ground PVP a little, as I no longer had my beloved healer to pair with. I started pairing more with the other healers in Ragtag, and they all approved of my skanking. But Lun'i was now doing ranked with another skank. I was a little hurt, but retrospectively I hold nothing against her. I was also not doing ranked anymore, as I had no fixed team. It felt a little odd being in Ragtag Band and not doing ranked, beyond a few matches here and there. Then 5.10 came, and we had to do GSF to get a Masterwork Crystal. So, much like you, I started doing GSF for motives other than the love of GSF. My motivation was purely to get a crystal to gear for ground PVP. But, I noticed very quickly that GSF was not toxic like ground pvp. People were helpful, willing to teach. People didn't trash talk their team in every match. They said hello to each other and congratulated each other on games well played. What is this madness I thought? It was infectious and it made me want to start learning. I thought if I am going to be playing this game to gear up, I might as well learn how to do it rather than just be carried or squished. So, like you, with ground PVP still being my main thing, I started putting effort into GSF and asking questions. Exactly like you are now. I don't know when exactly it happened, but a point arrived where I realized I was having more fun in GSF than I was in ground PVP. And the thing that really swung it for me was that I realized one strong top level player could carry a match on his own, which you can't do in ground PVP. This wasn't me at the time, I was far from a top player, but I saw others doing it a lot. I realized that GSF is more skill rewarding than ground PVP. Skill makes the biggest difference here, where as in ground PVP its more about which team ganks the others best. One player can take on 5/6 people in GSF and win. You can't do that in ground PVP (Unless you happen to be a slippery Operative). And slowly, I started playing less and less ground pvp and more and more GSF. Eventually, I left Ragtag band, and gave up on ground PVP altogether, with zero regrets. At that point I put my full focus in GSF, with the goal of emulating what I had seen from some of the best players to ever play this mode.

Regarding Bioware changing the incentives / rewards for playing GSF - I don't think they will. Right now GSF is as healthy as ever population wise. Their goal was to get more people playing it, which they have achieved. If its not broken, no need to fix it. Also they have a track record of leaving GSF alone, when compared to PVE and especially PVP. It has very few updates by comparison. Which is in large part why it has good class balance (which was another reason I stuck around).
-Luc Nodaro

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
Today , 04:43 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I think thatís an unfair assessment of Luc. He is here daily helping the community when they ask for help. If he were to pull his punches in matches to accommodate newbies like me, I would never get better.
.
One name you are going to hear about, if you stick around, is Neutrinos. At this moment in time he has been gone 15 months and is apparently not interested in returning. But, he was and still is generally considered - even by other respected top level Aces - to be the best pilot to ever play GSF. Certainly in terms of pure mechanical skill and map awareness anyway. There is argument to say others were better strategists for example. But he stood almost alone in skill. I consider myself privileged to have played against Neutrinos. Well, "played against," is a misnomer really. Witnessed is more accurate, because he was devastating. Certainly I had zero chances when I encountered him.

Yes, I was uncertain when I was new to GSF if he was cheating. But I spoke to others and I was readily assured, no he just is that good. Neutrinos' legacy lives on in Invis, who was his protege, and in terms of match effectiveness, and skill in a ship, is as good as Neutrinos. The only way to be certain if Neutrinos or Invis is the better pilot, would be for Neutrinos to come back. But its academic really. It doesn't matter. Neutrinos taught Invis everything he knows, and Invis was a worthy student. I am lucky now, to be able to train with Invis, and effectively gain access to what Neutrinos taught Invis. Yui (otherwise known as Zekken) is another one. Someone asked once if Yui was equal to Neutrinos, and Yui's reply, which I think I agree with, was that Neutrinos was the better Scout, Yui is the better Gunship. But at that level, its so elite, that there is no comparison. They are both phenomenal. These people are what I term Elite Aces. Because something has to separate them from the normal aces. Normal Aces still have to be Aces, because you can't argue with what they have achieved in game. But the Elite guys, there aren't many of those, and they are untouchable in a fair fight. They have stats that beat everyone else. Solo stats.

I consider myself fortunate to have flown with or against all of these guys in my time. Certainly there were others that left before I started. If you were to ask me what it takes to be someone who can make it to the upper tiers of being an Ace, I would say it's how you react to seeing these guys in battle. IF you resort to accusations of cheating, saying they are only good with Damage Overcharges, trash talking them, or generally making excuses, then you wont make it. You're not cut out for it. But if you see what they do and admire it, desire and aspire to be as good as them, then you've got what it takes. And given time, you will be an Ace. This is why I don't pull my punches in GSF anymore. If I go easy on you, it dumbs down the talent pool. If you think you beat me, but I took it easy on you, you learn nothing. Invis doesn't take it easy on me when I duel with him, and so he shouldn't, otherwise I wont ever make it to Elite Ace. GSF needs talented players, not people who want others to take it easy on them so that they can feel good about themselves.

Not pulling my punches also makes me a better pilot. When you are at a level that you rarely come across someone else of equal ability in a match, the challenge is less about dog fighting someone equally as good, and more about carrying teams in the defiance of ever greater odds against you. Because I don't pull my punches, because I go hard all the time, people come after me. Aggressively, persistently and relentlessly. They see me on a bad team, and they pounce on me in mobs. They even do it when I am on the better team, such is the desire to take revenge. Frustrating as it may be at times, learning to cope with that pressure makes me better. You also know when you have mentally beaten someone when they stop coming after you. GSF is a brutal game. You can't get away from that and you can't make excuses for it. You either sink or swim. Pulling punches and nerfing myself, will not achieve anything in the long run.
-Luc Nodaro

EHKodiak's Avatar


EHKodiak
Today , 05:18 AM | #27
Zanthana from Star Forge here - just weighing in on the OP.

More people are playing GSF than any time in the past few years, and it's brilliant. People are really learning to play it too - I've watched guildies go from the regular 0 kills every match up to 2 kills then jump brilliantly to the 10 kills a match once they grok how the game works. I was one of them!

Does it give great conquest points? Yep! Is that a bad thing? No - it has pushed a lot more people into playing an almost dead game mode. I can get match after match. The same with unranked, that's popping more than ever.

It's a heck of a lot better for an MMO to promote these activities than crafting solo thousands of objects a day. I do think that Operations, Flashpoints and Uprisings could be worth more points too as they take some organisation to get going and require some skill, but idea that drastically nerfing the points for GSF just because more people are playing it is silly.