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7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.04.2021 , 11:18 AM | #1
Let me be honest about the changes that are currently on 7.0 PTS.

I HATE them. I think they are stupid and utterly unnecessary.
I can see tweaking the utilities, moving certain utilities to be base class abilities (Battlefield Training for vanguards), and pruning useless and unused utilities.

These changes are also NOT what we were promised a couple months ago in June/July. Here is my understanding of what was promised back then.
  1. We would choose a base class; agent, smuggler, bounty hunter, jedi consular, sith warrior, etc. This would dictate which of the 8 base story lines our character would play through. There is some story stuff this would affect in later game content, but is minimal.
  2. We would then choose an advanced class (within limits - tech base class could only choose between tech advance class; same for force users with some caveat for LS/DS alignment.) This would allow a jedi knight to use a double bladed lightsaber or a bounty hunter to use an assault cannon or sniper rifle.

What I have seen on the PTS thus far (as of the date of this post) is a complete reworking and restructuring of the advanced classes.

What I was hoping for, and would love to see is a blending of the mirrored classes. Take Bounty Hunter Powertech and Trooper Vanguard for example. Allow us the choice between the 6 advanced classes. But allow us to use our choice of weapon, blaster pistol or blaster rifle. Then depending on the weapon we are using change weapon specific abilities (stock strike/rocket punch). Then there are abilities like Hammer Shot and Rapid Fire, these could be merged to the same ability. "Hammer Shot" has always confused me and I have never understood its naming. I can only surmise it had to do with differentiating BH and Troopers. Power Yield is proof enough that mirror classes can use the same abilities.

I like my power techs, I like their abilities just as they are. I prefer my PTs over my Vanguard troopers, I like the animations and the overall feel better, especially Jet Charge vs. Storm. Here, get rid of Storm and replace it with Jet Charge, this alone will make vanguards more fun. The ONE thing I do not like about the PT, using blaster pistols. The one thing I do not want to do is go full plasmatech on my PTs just to use a blaster rifle.

Please BW, STOP the current AC restructuring in its tracks, trash what has been done to date and start over to give us players what was promised when you said you were going to separate base/story class from play style.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
09.04.2021 , 11:38 AM | #2
You do realize that the separation of combat styles from the classes (story) is a separate thing from the combat revamp? They are both happening. So far on PTS we have only reviewed pieces of the combat revamp.
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Just your average, opinionated, disabled, queer gaymer.

LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
09.04.2021 , 12:50 PM | #3
The devs more or less confirmed that they'd like to separate weapons from the combat styles but it'd take a lot of animation work. They're open to it, but it's not happening in this expansion. The devs consider combat styles a step in that direction, so vanguards with assault cannons etc could still happen eventually.
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.04.2021 , 02:56 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
You do realize that the separation of combat styles from the classes (story) is a separate thing from the combat revamp? They are both happening. So far on PTS we have only reviewed pieces of the combat revamp.
Yes, I do. I actually like and support the separation of the combat style from the class.
In their live stream from July 1st, Charles Wood very very briefly mentioned address class balance. Work on balancing the classes has been an on going struggle since the game was launched 10 years ago. In the past couple years since 6.0 was released there has been little "rebalancing" happening, and when it does occur, it's tweaking the damage or cool down or resource usage of select ablities. What I am seeing on the PTS is a wholesale revamp, and I'm not liking what I see.

For example, Jedi Guardian at level 70 has to choose from 3 active abilities. As a tank you choose from Awe, Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz. That is a great big ***. Currently, with 6.0+, you get all three of these abilities and have access to them at all times in all fights. And there are fights such as Red in Dxun where I will use at least 2 of those; Saber Reflect is used on a regular basis and Blade Blitz is most useful to get out of Acid Pool. Then for the next two fights, Awe is useful for quick stunning groups of adds. Of the three I'm choosing Saber reflect EVERY time hindering my ability to tank well and protect my team.

Then when I play a Vigilance DPS Knight I have to choose between Enure, Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz. This hurts the team also. I have to forego a DCD or two and to a get out stupid quick ability. Those are life saving / ops wipe saving abilities. If you think a DPS "doesn't need" those, consider this:
  • Tanks loose aggro.
  • Bosses drop Aggro.
  • Tanks die.
DPS needs those DCDs.

In regards to having only seen a few pieces, you are absolutely correct. And it is enough to know that I do not like the direction the combat styles are headed. If BioWare continues this course, I foresee major class imbalance when it goes live.

One thing we were promised is the actual separation of the class story from the combat style. Eric and Charles made a big todo of it during the livestream and PTS has not given any indication how this will work.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
09.04.2021 , 03:16 PM | #5
The PTS hasn't shown any indication on how Combat Styles swapping will work, but that's not what the PTS builds were made to test yet. They're testing the changes to the Combat Styles themselves first, and rightfully so, since balancing will definitely be required, whereas there's nothing much to balance about switching between Combat Styles.

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
09.04.2021 , 03:52 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Aberd View Post
words... sentences... PUNCTUATION!!!
You are also judging the 7.0 combat meta against 6.0 combat when they also said that they will be making changes to scaling. Every time they have made combat changes it has required some follow-up tweaks. This time will likely be no different. They are making these changes to address the ongoing ability arms race that has been building for quite some time.

Also, Charles' surname is Boyd.
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Just your average, opinionated, disabled, queer gaymer.

Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.04.2021 , 03:53 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by LordCamTheGreat View Post
The devs more or less confirmed that they'd like to separate weapons from the combat styles but it'd take a lot of animation work. They're open to it, but it's not happening in this expansion. The devs consider combat styles a step in that direction, so vanguards with assault cannons etc could still happen eventually.
The animation is not an issue, they have all the animation files they need.

Eric and Charles did not promise that a Plasmatech Vanguard could run around doing Plasmatech abilities with an assault cannon or sniper rifle. What they mentioned was having a Trooper running around using a sniper rifle doing sniper abilities, or picking up his blaster pistol and stealthing through dailies doing Scoundrel abilities.

As with any major expansion a certain number of tweaks and adjustments need to be made to the ability system. Whether it is adding an ability or adjusting the levels certain abilities are granted at. It happened going from 5.0 to 6.0. My point in the original post is that the number of changes and what the changes are is ridiculous and unnecessary, the classes appear to be fairly well balanced as it is.

If they choose to add new abilities like they did with 6.0, or give us new improved abilities to replace low level abilities, that's great! I can get behind those. BUT that is not the apparent direction things are headed based on what they've given us on the PTS.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
09.05.2021 , 01:18 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Aberd View Post
The animation is not an issue, they have all the animation files they need.
Really? No, I don't think so. Let's take a single simple example from the current data set.

Commandos can use Boltstream with their cannon, but not with a blaster rifle. There is almost certainly no animation for firing Boltstream with a cannon. No, I don't know for sure, but it seems very likely, since using Boltstream with a rifle has never been a thing, and the lack of animation is one obstacle to allowing Commandos to use rifles. See below for commentary on the impact of that lack.

Now let's look at Vanguards, specifically Tactics. Is there an animation for the one where you slash the enemy with a spike built in to your armour (like it was a knife), but where your other hand is holding a cannon? Can you cite any possible reason that they would have made that animation?

So, to add full(1) multiweapon support to all combat styles, they would need to create animations for all the attacks on each style that are one-weapon (e.g. Boltstorm for Commandos), but for all the other permitted weapon (i.e. Boltstream/rifle, Boltstream/one-pistol, and Boltstream/two-pistol).

Commentary on the impact: It isn't the mostest biggerest chunk of work, but it *is* a chunk of work, and they would have to do it to enable full multiweapon. And that point is all that they were saying when they talked about making a pass over all the animations.

(1) "Full" == any weapon (any sabre(s)(2) for Force Users, any gun(s) for gun styles) on any ability, as opposed to *partial* multiweapon, which we currently have for Commandos and Shadows/Assassins (and arguably for Sentimaras), where abilities A, B, C work on any permitted weapon, but X, Y, Z only work if you have the "approved" weapon.

(2) Counting Vibroswords as single-blade lightsabres, and Electrostaffs as double-blade sabres.
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LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
09.05.2021 , 06:53 AM | #9
In his interview, Chris literally said that if they gave a tech user lightsabers, they'd hold their lightsabers like a gun. This is because weapons have nothing at all to do with the actual animations and as such are not optimised for other abilities.
If you gave a scoundrel boltstorm, they'd try firing their pistol like an assault cannon. If you gave a sith warrior a rifle, they'd use their basic attack and hit people with the rifle as if it were a lightsaber.

Sure they don't have to fully recreate every ability, but even matching up a current animation with a different weapon takes time and there are 16 combat styles that this would need to be done for.
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

CEasterbrook's Avatar


CEasterbrook
09.13.2021 , 12:46 PM | #10
Advanced classes have not received a complete rework since launch and it is about time some real work was done to them. Ability bloat has become a real problem with some classes/specs and these changes will be liked by some and hated by others and that is okay. Just because they did not mention all the upcoming changes in July/August does not mean they have not been in the pipeline for sometime. If you don't like the final product you are always free to play something else. I would wait to see the final product before jumping all over the changes, we are not getting the complete picture as of now.